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  1. #1

    "The biggest thing stopping players from coming back is leveling."...no no no no NO

    There's nothing wrong with leveling. Leveling can be fun, GW2 leveling is a lot of fun, because enemies are challenging and dynamic and there's lots to explore. The reason why people dislike leveling in WoW is because the content is static and repetitive and at this point anyone who has done all the quests once generally dungeons hops all the way to lvl 85.

    So it's not leveling in itself which stops people, it's what you do while leveling which sucks, it's still stuck in an Everquest grind mentality against static enemies, unlike GW2 or Firefall or whatever else is new out there.

    People also don't come back because max level also means grind. Grind every few months for new PVP gear, new PVE gear, whereas other games let you just jump in the fun and kill shit without worrying about a million stats being up to par with the latest spreadsheet dps and survivability requirements and all the gems and the enchants and more grind grind grind just to pay for it all. I know 3 people who used to be hardcore WoW players all of them ask me why I still play, and my reason is always "because I like the lore", and they always tell me they can't be bothered with the grind requirements to have any fun in this game. THAT's a real reason which I'm sure many other people share.

    Everquest was 16 years ago, this grind mentality to give a semblance of power is keeping a lot of people away, not because people want "instant gratification", but because people do want instant fun. Dude comes from work or school or whatever and he gets to choose between jumping in a massive world BG in GW2 and having chaotic fun or grinding 8 more pieces of PVP gear just to be competitive in PVP after he's done that for the last 9 years. Think he'll feel like coming back to WoW? I daresay not, and I can understand.

    People also don't come back because content gets done fast and after a month of a major patch there's nothing left to do besides do the same content on higher difficulties, which doesn't really mean higher skill but just higher gear checks. Don't tell me how hard it is to clear a heroic raid, I did heroic raids in WOTLK, besides the extra few gimmicks and requirements to get out of the fire faster they were just gear check 2.0. Wipes happened because of the same reasons: healer running out of mana, tank not having big enough HP pool at the critical moment, people standing in fire 1 second too long, DPS not understanding their classes and doing subpar DPS because they copy paste everything from a DPS website without understanding the underlying principles of a spec.

    The only skill content is PVP, although higher arena ratings means who has the best CC rotation and can hump the pillars best while their DPS builds up a DPS burst, and rated BGs are good there's nothing really to criticize there. But what about the people who don't play WoW to PVP, what do they get to do. Grind more farm grind more mounts grind more achievements which is all a grind and never a skill challenge.


    Get in touch with reality blizzard, people don't find leveling the biggest challenge, you're using the wrong term. There is nothing challenging about killing static enemies for 90 levels, and you're making it an even bigger grind next expansion with ground mounts, that will deter even more people from coming back.

    Your game is not challenging, it is grindy, and that is what makes people refrain from coming back.

  2. #2
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Fair enough...if you say so. On the crushing weight of your research and expertise I guess?

    Is that a quote in your title and by whom is it. If it is an actual Blizzard dev quote then it is like based on actual research and data. But alas why do I argue, people will claim Blizzard is wrong / lies anyhow.

    At the same time, as much as I hate to cite forum threads here....there are indeed lots of posts saying how much they hate levelling. Don't get me wron, I love levelling and will not skip it ever. But still meme time:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire Cylom's Avatar
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    My opinion would be is that it's way too simple.
    Like when I was leveling my Warrior, Charge > Shield slam > victory rush, repeat until high enough for dungeons, then faceroll dungeons till 85~+
    And I wasn't really a fan of Pandaria's zones :v

    What can I say, I love Female Gnomes.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShimmerSwirl View Post
    People don't come back because the game is homogenized with no meaningful progression. Everyone is a winner, all your actions are irrelevant.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Fair enough...if you say so. On the crushing weight of your research and expertise I guess?

    Is that a quote in your title and by whom is it. If it is an actual Blizzard dev quote then it is like based on actual research and data. But alas why do I argue, people will claim Blizzard is wrong / lies anyhow.

    At the same time, as much as I hate to cite forum threads here....there are indeed lots of posts saying how much they hate levelling. Don't get me wron, I love levelling and will not skip it ever. But still meme time:

    The quote is from MMO C front page. I also tried to make my post sound as if it's opinion and not fact, I might have not paid attention and made some things sound like fact. Once again though, the people who hate leveling probably wouldn't hate it if it felt more like fun content instead of grind. If leveling was fun, people would have fun doing it.

  5. #5
    Hmmm one could argue WoW is all about end-game. Many players level chars for fun, bút usually the 'main' character will be leveled asap to join the end-game.
    So their statement isn't far off probably. Anyway, lots of boosts have been sold already, indicating a lot of players dislike leveling enough to pay cash.

    The game not being challenging is not true, indeed questing while leveling isn't challenging.
    Questing being repetetive is probably true, but still so is GW2's (awesome) questing, you definately áre doing the same things over and over again in any MMO pretty much.
    Last edited by Butger; 2014-03-27 at 11:16 AM.

  6. #6
    Eh it doesn't matter what you do, some people don't like leveling period, they never have. I admit that leveling today is far too easy, unrewarding ( by removing the old talent trees half the time you get a new level and you don't even notice, nothing changes), non-social, which makes it feel even more grindy than it should be. That said, if Blizzard suddenly shifted gears too much then I probably wouldn't be playing. I mean if I wanted to play GW2, Firefall or SWTOR then I would be, so shifting your game too much in those directions leaves you in the same place so many WoW killers have found themselves, why not just play WoW?

    For what its worth I don't think leveling is why people don't want to come back either. It may be the reason they state they don't want to come back, but most of the time its because they are burnt out and just don't want to play it.

  7. #7
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    I don't like the fact you used GW2 as an example. ALL guild wars 2 is is levelling content even after max level. Quest packs and statless wardrobe gear is all that game gets. Atleast most other have real endgame content.
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  8. #8
    People don't come back because the game is homogenized with no meaningful progression. Everyone is a winner, all your actions are irrelevant.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  9. #9
    Over 9000! Hyve's Avatar
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    Your comparisons span between two very different games, games that have completely different leveling concepts compared to World of Warcraft.

    I believe Blizzard, they're the ones with the numbers and data, and from my personal experience with friends, they want to just get into the latest content. Several of them were pumped to re-join World of Warcraft recently, but didn't want to level from 1 - 90, but with the pre-order Boost they've re-joined and are having a lot of fun!

  10. #10
    I agree that the grinds (leveling, getting gear, making gold, etc) are probably the reason a lot of people stop playing, myself included. But at the same time, no matter what they did to it, a lot of people would simply not care about leveling and want to get to the end game. Making leveling harder, or making it take longer, would repel a lot of people.

  11. #11
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Yeah, GW2 is probably the worst example for alternative leveling you could have picked. It's mindnumbingly grindy and boring, people running in one huge zerg group from one preordained boss spawn to the next - ugh. "Classic" questing actually takes the time to introduce some lore and dialogue, most of the time - and if you want to take the time for it.

    People should start facing the reality (or more accurately, should have done so years ago) that the game doesn't fundamentally need to be changed to "adapt to modern practices". WoW has been naturally losing subs because no game keeps that amount up in a subscription environment, no matter how good the content. The overwhelming majority of players are simply utterly casual, and most people also have short attention spans (it's just the nature of our contemporary media environment), they want something new and fresh every other day.

    So the natural trend is to hop into other things, like other games. Are there some things wrong with WoW now and then? Yes ofc, more than just some. But they never contributed to sub loss that massively - it's sheer "getting tired of the game" that's all. Most people get affected by it.

    And leveling is indeed the major factor that keeps a LOT of old players from coming back. Let's face it, these people are the biggest market besides the younger generation that Blizzard can tap - the millions of people who've played WoW before at some point. And if you take one look at statistics, the overwhelming majority never finished leveling in their respective expansion.

    So - how do you stop WoW from becoming an Everquest-type, outdated game where new players are faced with the monumental challenge of overcoming literally dozens of hours of grind to actually be able to play with "all the rest"? Boost is the simple and logical answer. There is nothing wrong with the basic leveling system, but it needs to be in context.

    Btw OP your post makes little sense. You complain about no challenge, and then say you last raided in Wotlk on HC. How is anyone supposed to take that seriously? Also "there is no challenge - but PvP is challenging - except that it's not - face it Blizzard [insert generic oblivious complaint]".

    I'm not sure what you're actually complaining about. Are you having more fun in a different game, like GW2? Well why not stick to that then? It has a radically different approach, and while I don't enjoy it at all, if you do just go with that - why does WoW have to become like GW2 to match up to your expectations (which are really quite biased and not exactly in line with the reality of game design). If anything, they should be allowed to be fundamentally different.

    I think if you're looking for "different" questing, WoD might offer that. We don't know how it will turn out yet, but it seems like they want to soften that "grind", as you say, up and introduce new aspects. What certainly will never happen is for them to go back and change ALL the leveling content fundamentally in it's core philosophical approach, like you propose. That's never happening, and it never should. If you're that unhappy about it and feel that there is "no challenge" in the game that strongly (without having beaten any contemporary challenge, I might add), might I put it to you that the game is simply not for you?

  12. #12
    So, you're coming with an idea or what? Don't implement the boost to 90? Or do you want Blizzard to mention that GW2 leveling is much better than theirs? WoW is almost 10 years old, and they can either

    1) Change the whole core of the game. Which they won't, because it wouldn't make any sense to make a brand new game. Look how leveling was at Classic and how it is now, the differences are HUGE and it's leveling is still a blast to play if you didn't play for a while or have the old leveling still in your mind. But yes, comparing it to games 10 years older makes WoW always the badder one, right? I guess that's the only thing you want to accomplish here tbh.

    2) Boost to 90. For people who did it like a gazillion times, it's pretty nice to have. Everyone gets one free, or 60 bucks for one more. The price is exactly right if you ask me, just too high to just pay all boosted character. Players who leveled all their characters up won't like that. And the boost to 90 is nice for new players to instantly play with their friends on max level because that's where it's all about.

    It's pretty normal thinking if you ask me. This is already the case since TBC. Everyone is max level and you want to skip the leveling content asap to be at the level everyone wants to be. So if I reread your post, what exactly are you offering? I know what, you have no clue and you're just brabbling because you want your flying mounts next expansion. Go to bed, kid.

  13. #13
    OP, you are wrong and I am surprised that you think you can speak for players returning from a long break. I know from other games that I could never get back into it, because I first had to level my old char to the new max. It was confusing as hell and not fun at all. Same for WoW. Returning players who log in to a level 60, 70, 80 or 85 char, full of obsolete stuff and quests, who first have to level to 90 before getting to the newest content, will not like that at all.

    It has nothing to do with (lack of) challenge or grinding (you don't actually know what grinding means, do you?). These people just want to return and play with their friends in the new content. Not level.
    "When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods people believe in, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

  14. #14
    I don't see where suddenly your opinion makes it more right than customer feedback.

  15. #15
    The biggest thing stopping people from coming back is how the game has completely redesigned from its original design. Classes are so dumbed down, talents are dumbed down, leveling is dumbed down, PvP is dumbed down.

    It's just so basic now. Players are just pushed in the direction blizzard wants the game to progress and not what the players actually want. Removing stats because they were "to complicated" like Armor Penetration, Spell pene ect.

    Everyone having the same mana pool.
    No choice in talents to make your character unique.
    Spells that increased skillcap and drew a line between Mediocre and awesome players.
    PvE gear not being of use in PvP - This ruined it for a lot of my friends. If you worked hard for gear then you should be able to use it how you want.

    Stupid high health pools and numbers.
    The game felt a lot more dynamic in Wrath than it does now.

    If WoD returned WoW to how it was in Wrath (stat, spells wise) I think a large player bare would come back.

    But as it looks now they are removing even more stats and even more spells.


    Such a shame.

  16. #16
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcaneshot View Post
    I don't see where suddenly your opinion makes it more right than customer feedback.
    OP reminds me a lot of Anarch tbh. Inundated with some weird, fundamentally skewed perspective of the game that had never been the case, without actually engaging in the challenging content he/she is critisizing for lack of challenge. Ultimately, probably better off in a different game better suited to his/her needs, than ranting about things in WoW he/she doesn't like or understand and that won't change.

  17. #17
    Mechagnome Mitak's Avatar
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    I get bored not because of the leveling but because of the lore. The leveling in WOTLK was fine for me because there was lore to back it up and it felt epic to even kill 10 stags for the meat that will then go to feeding the outpost that is cut from the rest of the alliance.
    On the other hand the whole cataclysm and MOP lore experience was sub par. I felt no attachment to the beer guzzling pandas nor did i care much about Garrosh's plans for the horde. Since for me the lore drives my gameplay and make me want to go dungeons and raids to find out more, in MOP i was really asking myself each time after i did some dungeons or questing, why am i playing this game.

    For Blizzard Devs who said that we will get used to pandas in time when we stop perceiving them as "cuddly" and see them for what they really are when MOP is out, i can tell now that MOP is over, that's just BS, i still don't enjoy the kung- fu panda idea. I never had a panda and never will have. Pandas were a bad idea especially when the devs said that they had originally another idea but thought that the panda is better! Lol i hope that the "other" idea that they dismissed is not WOD...
    The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head.

  18. #18
    Warchief miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voisier View Post
    The biggest thing stopping people from coming back is how the game has completely redesigned from its original design. Classes are so dumbed down, talents are dumbed down, leveling is dumbed down, PvP is dumbed down.

    It's just so basic now. Players are just pushed in the direction blizzard wants the game to progress and not what the players actually want. Removing stats because they were "to complicated" like Armor Penetration, Spell pene ect.

    Everyone having the same mana pool.
    No choice in talents to make your character unique.
    Spells that increased skillcap and drew a line between Mediocre and awesome players.
    PvE gear not being of use in PvP - This ruined it for a lot of my friends. If you worked hard for gear then you should be able to use it how you want.

    Stupid high health pools and numbers.
    The game felt a lot more dynamic in Wrath than it does now.

    If WoD returned WoW to how it was in Wrath (stat, spells wise) I think a large player bare would come back.

    But as it looks now they are removing even more stats and even more spells.


    Such a shame.
    I think you missed the point where we're actually ending up with more stats on items than before, and we're getting a stat squish.
    You're getting new secondaries in Multistrikes and Readiness to replace dodge/parry and hit/expertise as stats that actually affect your gameplay, while the removed become passive baselines. You're also getting a bunch of new tertiary stats like extra sockets, movement speed, etc. Stats are being squished to counter "stupid high health pools and numbers", so you're getting exactly what you want there too.

    Do people even read any blue info before ranting about content not even in beta?

  19. #19
    MoP - people love levelling, lets make a new class that starts at level 1, we've got all the 1-60 cata revamp we want people to play through

    monks end up as the least represented class at level 90 (unlike when deathknights were introduced, everybody had one), i wonder how many were started, but never finished.

    WoD - people hate levelling, lets give them a free level 90
    <insert witty signature here>

  20. #20
    I am Murloc! Rorcanna's Avatar
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    GW2 leveling fun and challenging = biggest lie in the gaming industry to me. YOU might like it, YOU might enjoy leveling more than anything else...it's still just YOUR opinion and you can just use some common sense to realise that there will be people disagreeing with you on that.

    I love leveling through content that is new to me in WoW. Others simply do NOT, and the 90 boost is perfect for them.

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