1. #1

    Resto - Spirit vs Crit vs haste help

    Hi all

    I am currently gearing up on normals (ilvl 535 no leg meta or cloack) and im trying to utilise the stats available as much as possible.

    I understand the haste break points and have read up a fair amount on resto sham stats, but I would like a bit of advice if I may.

    Currently sitting at:

    spirit 12943
    Haste 8266
    Crit 3765
    Mastery circa 50%

    I know my crit is low, hence me asking these questions:

    1) should i convert some spirit into crit (i think yes, but how much spirit to loose)
    2) what spirit should I aim for - 10k? will the extra crit from this offset the spirit loss?
    3) I have gone to 8266 haste to help cover latency, but should I just drop down to 7613 and use the space to pump more crit or try reach 8916 for HST?

    Apologies if these questions are often asked, but any help would be much appreciated
    Last edited by Hexcuseme; 2014-03-27 at 12:12 PM.

  2. #2
    That's a hard question to answer since it depends on many factors such as the number of healers you run with and whether the raid takes a lot of avoidable damage. I think the best way is to gradually reduce spirit and try it out -- as long as you aren't out of mana it's fine.

    Since 7613 is a healing rain and not a totem breakpoint, it isn't affected by the latency issue, so there is no need to go 8266. The 8916 breakpoint needs extra latency margin (say 9100 but the exact number can be different, it needs to be tested).

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexcuseme View Post
    1) should i convert some spirit into crit (i think yes, but how much spirit to loose)
    2) what spirit should I aim for - 10k? will the extra crit from this offset the spirit loss?
    3) I have gone to 8266 haste to help cover latency, but should I just drop down to 7613 and use the space to pump more crit or try reach 8916 for HST?
    1) Spirit until you feel comfortable... so its kind of "trial and error"
    2) 10k sounds pretty good to me (eventhough I would go lower since im high on crit but CANT seem to get under the 10k mark ^^) and if u use Totemic Recall good u wont have any mana issues...
    3) this
    Quote Originally Posted by Koor View Post
    Since 7613 is a healing rain and not a totem breakpoint, it isn't affected by the latency issue, so there is no need to go 8266. The 8916 breakpoint needs extra latency margin (say 9100 but the exact number can be different, it needs to be tested).

  4. #4
    In practise crit is a bit of a luxury stat, as the regen it offers is quite inferior to spirit. You don't typically reach the point where you actively want to trade regen for throughput until you have at least normal gear and the legendary meta. This is excacerbated by the commonly overlooked fact that your other healers benefit directly from your spirit through mana tide, the benefit of which is greatly affected by how many healers you are with (10/25) and their gear.

  5. #5
    Thanks all

    I should have noted on my post that this is in regard to 10m and running with 2 healers, (sham and priest or druid).

    I decided to play around and wast 1k on reforging different ways, and I seem to be performing well with

    9100 haste (bit extra for latency on HST bp)
    11k spirit (buffed)
    28k crit (buffed
    47% mastery

  6. #6
    so you are sure u get the extra tick with 9100 haste? double-check that!

  7. #7
    I am going with around 15k spirit in 25 raids and i feel comfortable with but i guess it is too high amount. Should i reforge some to crit ? My currect stat is smth like:
    Spirit 15k
    Intellect 25,5k
    Mastery 52%
    Crit 22%
    Haste 8980

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexcuseme View Post
    Hi all

    I am currently gearing up on normals (ilvl 535 no leg meta or cloack) and im trying to utilise the stats available as much as possible.

    I understand the haste break points and have read up a fair amount on resto sham stats, but I would like a bit of advice if I may.

    Currently sitting at:

    spirit 12943
    Haste 8266
    Crit 3765
    Mastery circa 50%

    I know my crit is low, hence me asking these questions:

    1) should i convert some spirit into crit (i think yes, but how much spirit to loose)
    2) what spirit should I aim for - 10k? will the extra crit from this offset the spirit loss?
    3) I have gone to 8266 haste to help cover latency, but should I just drop down to 7613 and use the space to pump more crit or try reach 8916 for HST?

    Apologies if these questions are often asked, but any help would be much appreciated
    What is wrong with you ppl and haste?

    You have barely any stats TO allocate and you put it into haste? So you can dish out weak heals even quicker?

    My gearing strategy was 0 haste and put everything I can into my most valuable stat which is crit.

    Try out 10k spirit and everything except like 300 haste into crit or at least as much as you can.

    Edit: gearing strategy as in, when I was like you and basically had no gear. Going for crit early allows you to dish out serious numbers if you absolutely have to, you cannot maintain it for long yet because your crit is too low, but this will get better.

    Seriously drop haste it is crap for a long time.
    Last edited by Pappus; 2014-03-30 at 01:21 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Pappus View Post
    What is wrong with you ppl and haste?

    You have barely any stats TO allocate and you put it into haste? So you can dish out weak heals even quicker?

    My gearing strategy was 0 haste and put everything I can into my most valuable stat which is crit.

    Try out 10k spirit and everything except like 300 haste into crit or at least as much as you can.

    Edit: gearing strategy as in, when I was like you and basically had no gear. Going for crit early allows you to dish out serious numbers if you absolutely have to, you cannot maintain it for long yet because your crit is too low, but this will get better.

    Seriously drop haste it is crap for a long time.
    would hate to have you in my raid as you have no clue how good haste breakpoints are for shammies, 9100 haste should be aimed for by all restos as you gain extra ticks from healing rain and HST which are your top healing spells most of the time, without haste you miss out on extra ticks per cast and do alot less healing. 550 ilvl is easily attainable within a month of lvln a fresh char which has enough stats to get these haste breakpoints.

    Anyone looking at this guys post should just ignore it, stats are 9100 haste breakpoint if attainable or the 7613 one if not, spirit till comfortable 11-15k range, then rest into crit.

  10. #10
    The 7613 haste breakpoint is well worth the secondary stats loss to gear to, because you probably can't get below about 3500 haste anyway at that ilvl, and the extra throughput from an extra HR tick will far exceed any value you can get from ~4000 secondary stats somewhere else. The 8916 HST breakpoint (generally assumed to effectively be ~9100 with latency) is much more questionable in terms of its value. On paper, the value of 1500 additional Crit far exceeds the value of that extra HST tick, especially when you work in the Spirit equivalency of more Resurgence regen.

    Therefore, I would only go to that haste level under the following circumstances.

    (1) You're a Troll. It's worth it at any gear level as a Troll because 8916 is also a HTT+Berserking breakpoint, which effectively nearly doubles the value you get from gearing to it (since you would always use HTT and Berserking together).
    (2) You can't really drop below that haste level anyway, because any haste that you're dropping to get that low will go into Mastery or excess Spirit - if you're in that situation - which generally happens at about 575 ilvl - you way as well stay at ~9100, because you can't convert the extra stats to Crit anyway, and the extra breakpoint does definitely outperform Mastery or excess levels of Spirit.

    I don't think the 15,316 breakpoint is worth it at all (possibly for Thok progression). The value of the extra haste breakpoints (even the extra HR tick) just does not math out to being at all close to the ~8000 Crit you need to drop to get to it.

  11. #11
    Tiberria, where are you seeing the need to drop 8k crit to reach the 50% break point? I'm currently at it and still maintain 40% crit. Most of the haste I'm getting is from reforging out of Mastery and Spirit.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Duglawaha View Post
    Tiberria, where are you seeing the need to drop 8k crit to reach the 50% break point? I'm currently at it and still maintain 40% crit. Most of the haste I'm getting is from reforging out of Mastery and Spirit.
    7613 haste to 15,316 haste is nearly 8000 extra stats. Do you have an armory link? I certainly can't reach 15,316 and 40% Crit even at 579 ilvl.

  13. #13

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Duglawaha View Post
    You are only reaching that by using double amp trinkets, which means that you are basically giving up half a trinket slot and giving up the 5-9% extra healing from the Thok's trinket proc (let's say it's worth an average of 6%).

    With your build, you get:
    -1 extra HR, ELW, RT, and HST tick
    -~8% extra critical healing (worth ~3% extra output)

    However, if you switched to ~9100 haste and using the Thok trinket, you would gain
    -6% extra throughput from the Thok trinket
    -7% extra Crit (~3.5% extra throughput) - using my gear as an example - I have 47% raid buffed Crit
    -~4000 extra Spirit (or could move some of it to Mastery)

    If we say that extra Spirit/Mastery is worth 2% more throughput, you gain a total of 11.5% throughput. You would need to get 8.5% extra output from those extra breakpoints to even break even, and I don't think it would come close. This is especially true because with 4000 less Spirit and 7% less Crit, you most definitely have to scale back the amount of Chain Heal casts (or have to increase the amount of GCDs spent on Totemic Recalls and Magma Totems during meta procs) compared to what you can do with higher Crit/Spirit levels. I know that I can't 100% sustain chain casting CH (between ULE/HR, HST and RT being used on CD) at 47% Crit and 14.4k Spirit without at least some Totemic Recall usage, so there is no way that running lower than that isn't somewhat impacting your throughput.

  15. #15
    Right but in what situation are you actually casting CH that much and not doing an insane amount of unnecessary over healing. The only fight i can honestly say I start to feel tight for mana is Protectors, with 4 healers. Other than that damage isn't really out of hand to the point that I need to be spamming CH constantly, and even when I do it is only for short burst healing periods and usually I'll have a CD up for that as well. Of course I am sure to be spending more globals on Magma and TR and on paper that may seem like a loss of through put, but in reality the majority of those globals are coming during luls in damage where I would be casting a HW or maybe delay RT by one global.

    As far as double amp trinkets, the reason I'm wearing PBoI is because I'm going 50% Haste. I only have a flex version of Thok' (trinkets are the bane of my existence) and having control over PBoI's proc is pretty handy. Honestly I enjoy 34% and 50% Haste equally, and have spent the majority of this tier bouncing back and forth between them during progression to find what works better for me. If I were to get a heroic Thok's Tooth or DSoD I would put more consideration into going back down to 34% Haste, but with my current gear I quite like how this feels.

    e: You forgot the extra HTT tick, which certainly is not negligible but also not your supposed 8.5% through put you say I'm losing. Avg ~100k a tick means an additional 1m+ healing per cast, if no over heal, and also faster ticks getting the healing out faster.
    Last edited by Duglawaha; 2014-03-30 at 05:31 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    would hate to have you in my raid as you have no clue how good haste breakpoints are for shammies, 9100 haste should be aimed for by all restos as you gain extra ticks from healing rain and HST which are your top healing spells most of the time, without haste you miss out on extra ticks per cast and do alot less healing. 550 ilvl is easily attainable within a month of lvln a fresh char which has enough stats to get these haste breakpoints.

    Anyone looking at this guys post should just ignore it, stats are 9100 haste breakpoint if attainable or the 7613 one if not, spirit till comfortable 11-15k range, then rest into crit.
    Ignore that one. He has no clue. Hell I even get the vibe, that you think crit doesn't help with HST, HR and HTT .

    On a more serious note. With low gear you can have less then 3000 haste, however ~20% haste with ilvl 550 is absolutely okay because it will still allow you to get to 40% crit, if you have less gear there is a good chance, that you can go with 300 haste, like I did.

    Remember, that crit also does a lot for HST and HR and beyond that. Especially HR doesn't practically profit from haste for most AoE situations in SoO. Sure on paper you get an extra tick, but it won't do much, because unless you time your HR poorly most peeps are full well before the standard ticks are done.

    If you feel you exceed spirit, then go for haste, however if you want bang for your back ~20% haste (buffed & latency checked) is enough to get you smoothly into the shaman heal class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh and on the side, I also use PBoI and actually like, that I can theoretically proc the int whenever I need it (however i still need practice with that)

  17. #17
    Thanks for the info above.

    One question, why do you see on a lot of top resto shams going all out on mastery, is this the defecto stat for heroic or garrosh?

  18. #18
    I can't definitively say as I don't really look at top players since their experiences and needs are so far removed from my own (flex and normal). But there comes a point where you really don't need more Haste or Crit, so Mastery is the only other option. There is, I believe, a transition point where Mastery is better than Crit, but again, that's beyond my level in the game so I haven't considered it much.

    You can read more on that here - http://lifeingroup5.com/?p=2965

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexcuseme View Post
    Thanks for the info above.

    One question, why do you see on a lot of top resto shams going all out on mastery, is this the defecto stat for heroic or garrosh?
    You are probably looking at top Resto Shaman logged out in their Ele sets (Ele's current stat priority is heavy mastery). Mastery is inferior to Crit in every way and on every fight in 25H.

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