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  1. #1

    Are class roles outdated?

    By class roles I mean the aspect of a tank and DPS/healer. Obviously damage dealers and healers will always be there, but is the idea of a tank and tanking outdated? Non-organized PvE groups are disassembled over and over because 1 tank leaves or because they can't find one to begin with. Tanks seem to be the threshold holding back a lot of growth in PvE. I know some games have already taken steps towards reducing dependence on a tank role.

    I could see WoW(if the Devs wished, not that they would) evolving to not having a defined tank for the group. Again, not saying they'd ever do it, but the capability is there. I played a Holy Pally at the end of Wrath when the pre-Cata patch had already come out(meaning I was OP as f**k). During that time I tanked and healed(at the same time) the heroic 5 mans as holy. For the most part I could keep aggro, but even when I didn't I was able to heal the DPS that the mobs were focused on.

    To me, the whole feel of those runs was more fun. The fights felt more like an actual fight, like a brawl, not just DPS mindlessly stabbing some mobs back while the mob(for some reason) couldn't stop attacking the tank. DPS with mobs on them feel more inclined to use abilities not in their standard rotation, which made the gameplay more fun. If a mage got targeted, he'd want to use his frost nova and such, a rogue his evasion, pally his bubble/heal/cc, etc. To me, that's how the game SHOULD play. Every ability in your spellbook should be in the mix in both PvE and PvP. And I think it's the tank oriented style of PvE that takes that away.

    Just a thought. I think outdated is the right word for this. Just tired of seeing groups so reliant on finding a tank. And I think that we have been playing games like this for so long that we kind of forget that all the mobs focusing 1 person is kind of nutty. Again, not saying WoW should do this or I want it to, just that I think it has the capability for a different kind of gameplay from what I saw with that Holy Pally.
    Last edited by Brandon138; 2014-03-28 at 11:58 AM.

  2. #2
    I know some people hate sitting around waiting for the player that plays the required role needed for group but removing class roles is not the answer. How exactly do you expect a multiplayer game to work by removing class roles? Some other game already tried that before and from a PvE point of view it was a disaster, i am sure you know which one i'm referring to.

    Class roles exist because they make sense on a multiplayer environment, remove them and you just create a mess. "Class" roles exist even in real life for a reason.
    Isheria - Method - Twisting Nether

  3. #3
    I think that's why scenarios were introduced, to allow players an option to group with others and run an instance without needed a tank or a healer. For the most part I feel like scenarios were pretty well executed, but I think in the grand scheme of things, tanks and healers will always be required for raids. Otherwise we'd just have 25-man scenarios.

    Even in raids, there are several "non-tank" encounters where a tank isn't needed at all, but overall I'd say that the tank role isn't going anywhere.

  4. #4
    I think you are right. Classic DnD has nothing like "aggro", "threat", "tanks" and so on.
    In a perfect game enemies should go to slap whoever they want and players (every kind of player) can only try to mock them to change that.
    ...And use defensive abilities to survive the encounters
    "So long! And thanks for all the fish!"

  5. #5
    I've played games without the holy trinity and none of them have very fun PvE.
    One cannot simply quit wow his way into Mordor.

  6. #6
    I agree with the OP. The thought of a tank that every mob just hits while ignoring everyone else for a whole fight....is kinda lame. I actually enjoy playing a tank because that is the only role that really interact with mobs/bosses on a regular basis. It would be nice if other roles did too.

    However, implementation of this new system would have to be very delicate. It's a huge change. Many MMOs have failed at trying this.

  7. #7
    they're not outdated no, but it is possible to make a good game without them
    WoW was designed with them in mind though and changing that design would be a huge undertaking which would probably upset at least as many players as it would please
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by rayvio View Post
    they're not outdated no, but it is possible to make a good game without them
    WoW was designed with them in mind though and changing that design would be a huge undertaking which would probably upset at least as many players as it would please
    True. Scenarios are the first real attempt at this. Look how much people like those....

  9. #9
    Over 9000! Winter Blossom's Avatar
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    I don't like clusterfucks. Keep it organized - keep the Tanks.

  10. #10
    Every game that has tried it I haven't been that thrilled with. Granted that could be because it wasn't done well but I've never been that impressed with the idea. I wonder though how many people that like the idea of removing tanks are those that generally only play DPS classes. I'm guessing queue's and wasted raid time is the main reason behind wanting to get rid of it, not because its dated/bad design.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Motocarota View Post
    I think you are right. Classic DnD has nothing like "aggro", "threat", "tanks" and so on.
    1/ This isn't D&D.
    2/ Actually it sort of does. Certain classes can issue challenges, and I know the Fighter has a skill that forces an Attack of Oppertunity if an enemy tries to walk past to attack someone else. Main reason computer games have threat is becuse there's no DM deciding what monster attacks who for the purpose of a more interesting/challenging game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    True. Scenarios are the first real attempt at this. Look how much people like those....
    I like the concept, they just need to be used properly. Like not at max level.

  12. #12
    Tank and Healer is fine, DPS just dont belong here.

    Its such braindead role, it wasnt even role in older games. There shouldnt be roles that have no responsibility.
    Should be: Tank / Healer / CC / Support / Scout
    Everyone can dps.

  13. #13
    I enjoy the concept of trinity in MMOs, so I wouldn't want to see it gone from WoW. That being said, I agree that some people would rather have another role system.

    Rather than having WoW change, I'd rather have other MMOs follow that trend. This way people that like it can move to this new game and people that enjoy the current system stay. Recent MMOs have tried to focus on some points and successfully snatched a portion of players. Some focus on Story, some focus on Graphics, some on no Role Trinity, some on PvP.

    Should WoW changed? I don't know. There are people that like the way it is. We'd need way more data to tell if that would be the right decision.
    Should all games be like WoW? Definitely not.

    In my personal opinion, I hope WoW doesn't ever change from Tank-Support-Damage and that another game fulfill your desire.

  14. #14
    It depends a lot on the underlying mechanics. WoW can't really get rid of the trinity, because the already-simple base mechanics (no collision, player attacks almost entirely consist of target-based spells) mean that it would suffer terribly from playstyle homogeneity if that core distinction were to be removed. On top of that, it raises a big question mark over encounter design; obviously, the entire ethos of boss design would have to shift, both in major (obviously, the boss can't one-shot people if it attacks anything or anyone) and more subtle ways (no tanks = can't control where the boss/mobs are standing). Telegraphed attacks already exist, too, so we're not primed to gain a lot in that area that we don't already have, especially given that the game is pretty limited in just how far it can take those attacks without being a mess.

    It's not a problem at all for games built around that system, but for WoW in particular, it would be a balance nightmare and a major upheaval for class roles that could very, very easily leave some classes totally disenfranchised and subject the game to even worse flavor-of-the-month issues than it already sometimes has. It's not that the idea has any issues, but it just can't really be applied to WoW without changing such a huge amount of underlying features and mechanics that it may as well just be a new game.

  15. #15
    If you don't want class roles then go play GW2. It worked wonders in that game.

  16. #16
    IMO Class Roles make your Class more Fun and meaningful to play. I tried playing GW2 once and the dungeon experience for me was stale and boring no class personality at all when every class can tank damage, dps and heal.
    Last edited by Treacherous; 2014-03-28 at 11:52 AM.

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer Primernova's Avatar
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    No they are not. Roles make a ROLE playing game.

    This is why GW2 fell so flat on it's face.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by z4x View Post
    Tank and Healer is fine, DPS just dont belong here.

    Its such braindead role, it wasnt even role in older games. There shouldnt be roles that have no responsibility.
    Should be: Tank / Healer / CC / Support / Scout
    Everyone can dps.
    These days, at least in a raid environment, the DPS role basically involves optimizing DPS output whilst dealing with mechanics. Blzzard has gotten pretty good at giving DPS some more support-esque tools to work with in SoO too, with Galakras and some other fights presenting excellent opportunities to use offensive CC.

    The interesting thing about DPS is that the output is somewhat less binary than healers and tanks. A tank can either have aggro or not have aggro, and a player can either be dead or not dead, with any health lost losing relevance after being healed to full. DPS, whilst not terribly complicated, operates within a more varied spectrum, and all of the damage doesn't stop mattering until the end of an encounter, be it a success or a wipe. A healer only scores bonus points for seizing an opportunity and doing some great healing if it actually prevents someone from dying, but every such opportunity seized from DPS accumulates.

    I'm generalizing a bit, but the point I'm trying to convey is that the DPS role is a little more involved than just pressing some buttons and not standing in these things. These days, the efficiency that the role demands and rewards in a heroic raid environment puts it at least on par with tanks, as crazy as that might sound given the history of tanks.

  19. #19
    I personally hope so, but I usually pvp, so I guess my opinion won't be so valid

  20. #20
    No Brian they are not, how could I show you that you ask me?

    Try doing a current raid without healers and tanks, see how far that gets you.
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