Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
5
LastLast
  1. #61
    You don't need the trinity in PVE. You just design your mobs and encounters around other teamwork concepts.

    The greatest barrier is getting people to be willing to learn a new system of organized PVE. A lot of people could not adjust to GW2 and just gave up quickly. I believe EQN is ditching the common trinity as well. The hardest job for each dev that tries this is to introduce new concepts and get people to observe, learn and value them.

    There's nothing particularly more tactical about the trinity. In fact, I feel WoW began reusing fight ideas years ago and the encounters started to get stale. You can do new things and new ideas without the trinity. It's really just a matter of encounter design and getting people to open up their minds.

  2. #62
    I don't think they're outdated but I do think that single role classes are in the current game in its current design.

  3. #63
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    10,074
    Honestly, I think a I'd like to see a new game gravitate more towards the original EQ model where there were like 7 different roles, instead of to no defined roles.

    EQ had yank, healer, damage dealer, puller, buffer, debuffer, crowd control.

    Obviously it makes it more difficult to organize, but I think that having some sort of defined role inherently encourages strategy and makes combat a more interesting and more managable experience.

  4. #64
    Deleted
    I'm not sure we would get very far if we didn't have tanks or healers

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by z4x View Post
    Everyone is dealing with mechanics.

    The difference is that: Tank has responsibility, Healer has responsibility, DPS happy button mashing
    Sorry, but no. You might argue that DPS's responsibility is too tolerant, but doing a fight with crap DPS and dying to it over and over because the DPS cannot kill the boss fast enough for the healer to avoid going OOM demonstrates the DPS' responsibility.

    I was the healer in that case, which was frustrating because in my main DPS spec I'd have been doing literally five times what the group's DPS was.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by z4x View Post
    Everyone is dealing with mechanics.

    The difference is that: Tank has responsibility, Healer has responsibility, DPS happy button mashing
    DPS has responsibility to kill the boss..
    As someone who's played all three roles in a progression setting, DPS is the most competitive and it's the hardest to play optimally when progressing on a new fight. I wouldn't call that no responsibility.

  7. #67
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    FEEL THE WRATH OF MY SPANNER!!
    Posts
    37,509
    Not having any class roles, can't imagine that. It's not outdated, it's a low guideline as well. Though needed, I find.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  8. #68
    Deleted
    There is a place for a tank-less genre of MMO gaming. I don't believe that WoW should spearhead that charge because they have a very defined system in place and they do it really well. Yes, there is the issue of a lack of tanks and how much groups have to rely on having good tanks. That is a challenge for Blizzard to overcome though.

    I personally love tanking (and healing, but mostly tanking) and I have been nothing but supportive of the move towards more active and less passive tanking. Removing stats such as Defense back in the day, following with Dodge and Parry (on gear, not as a concept) and focusing more on short, on-use abilities and spatial awareness has been a lot of fun. Tanking shouldn't be a subset of jst DPSing - I think the worst of it was around Wotlk/Cata.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Karnak View Post
    Sorry, but no. You might argue that DPS's responsibility is too tolerant, but doing a fight with crap DPS and dying to it over and over because the DPS cannot kill the boss fast enough for the healer to avoid going OOM demonstrates the DPS' responsibility.

    I was the healer in that case, which was frustrating because in my main DPS spec I'd have been doing literally five times what the group's DPS was.
    Yeah. Hard enrage timers aside, you have things like cleaning up adds in a timely manner (especially when they periodicalyl respawn like on Garrosh or have secondary effects like mcs or cc.) and also the better your dps the less time your healers have to keep the raid going through a soft enrage, and cases like destorying parts on the assembly line in blackfuse.

    Granted if an individual dps fucks up it's usually harder to tell and more forgiving than if a healer or tank messes up, but it's still there.

  10. #70
    Deleted
    No it's not, having no class roles is boring.
    We need more tanks in ppv

  11. #71
    I am Murloc! crakerjack's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Ptwn, Oregon
    Posts
    5,014
    I'm all down for convenience to have a significant role in RPG's, but at some point you have to realize how damaging it can be. LFR/LFD allowed people to que for dungeons/heroics w/o having to go out of their way to find a group, but it also significantly damaged realm communities. There's always going to be a pro/con to changes regarding convenience and it's up to blizzard to make sure they determine which ones are more beneficial than bad.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  12. #72
    I find class based games more interesting. When people are given the freedom to do whatever they want, things tend to muddy up and it becomes less interesting. There's no cooperation, because you're generally just nuking whatever you want to kill. You don't have to work with a healer or a tank, you just nuke. That's boring to me. Class roles force people to play a certain way.

    That being said, I'd like to see a game that allows people to mess around with how particular classes work. Say you want to play a warrior, but you want to be really fast and agile, you are allowed to wear light/leather armour and dual-wield which increases your movement speed. However, the same class could also wear plate armour which would give more protection at the cost of speed. Maybe a mage that uses a staff can do better AoE damage while a wand is more accurate and does better single-target damage. Allows players room to mess around within their role. I know some games do this, but I'm yet to see any do it in an interesting way.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by zed zebes View Post
    There's nothing particularly more tactical about the trinity.
    And I disagree. Tankless encounters encourage very little strategy beyond "use your abilities like you're suppose to and run if you're being chased or aimed at." Tanking implies someone is in charge of controlling whatever the threat happens to be and keeping it contained and unable to attack others. Healers, as well, are fairly important to avoid that "just attack it and keep yourself alive" issue. They undo the threat's effects that couldn't be restrained by the tank.

    In fact, I feel WoW began reusing fight ideas years ago and the encounters started to get stale.
    This one's demonstrably false. The raid encounters, and dungeons even, have gotten more and more complicated every expansion. There was even a list on this forum showing how they add up.

    It's really just a matter of encounter design and getting people to open up their minds.
    While that's true, it's also the way the game works. You're taking Baseball and saying "Why do we even have basemen?"
    Soothing Mist:"Healing them for a minor amount every 0.5 sec, until you take any other action."
    Jade Serpent Statue: "The statue will also begin casting Soothing Mist on your target. healing for 50% as much as yours. "
    [What's half of minor?]
    "Statue casts Soothing Mist at a nearby ally for toddler healing."

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by z4x View Post
    Everyone is dealing with mechanics.

    The difference is that: Tank has responsibility, Healer has responsibility, DPS happy button mashing
    Incorrect, if you just dps Horridon, you will wipe. If everyone just dps what ever boss on Council of Elders, you will wipe. I just gave two examples where dps has responsibility. Unless you want to prove that healers and tanks can carry those 2 bosses in normal raiding (note I said normal and not LFR) with the dps doing whatever they want, you're wrong.

  15. #75
    Deleted
    GW2 tried to go without the holy trinity.

    So we got dungeons boss fights that felt like playing Tag with one dude trying to kill you

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by zed zebes View Post
    You don't need the trinity in PVE. You just design your mobs and encounters around other teamwork concepts.

    The greatest barrier is getting people to be willing to learn a new system of organized PVE. A lot of people could not adjust to GW2 and just gave up quickly. I believe EQN is ditching the common trinity as well. The hardest job for each dev that tries this is to introduce new concepts and get people to observe, learn and value them.

    There's nothing particularly more tactical about the trinity. In fact, I feel WoW began reusing fight ideas years ago and the encounters started to get stale. You can do new things and new ideas without the trinity. It's really just a matter of encounter design and getting people to open up their minds.
    And while this line of thinking is to be applauded, the deal with the Trinity is what it evolved into in WoW.

    A check and balance system that force role-interdependency in the game.

    If you look at Vanilla, you can see there was a lot more diversity, especially with the hybrids at at the time.

    The problem becomes, you end up only bringing the classes you need and in cases where abilities could trivialize content, you picked those. We see that happen in top tier guilds all the time.

    So for control factors, a foundation to base most of the game design upon, the concept of the Trinity came out and then you had hard specs created for each part of the trinity. While they can change how the role is fulfilled with different underlying mechanics... Dodge vs Block vs Parry vs High Armor vs Stagger, they only have to get 5 specs in line for tanking and 5 for healing and the rest DPS.

    GW2 suffers the opposite problem, there is so much "freedom" on the class-side that their encounters are horribly boring and there are no real defining abilities in the game for fear that something might be released that would be a scale-tipper in the favor of a particular profression.

  17. #77
    They can get rid of it for all I care, but only if the combat turns into one as in a spectacle fighter or at least action adventure. As long as my character just slashes the thin air in fron't of him to down a dragon there is no reason to change the system. It would only turn the gameplay in the already mentioned clusterfuck and would actually limit the mechanics more than they already are currently.

  18. #78
    Deleted
    Class roles are so 2004., its all about homogenization and dungeon faceroll now.

  19. #79
    I think requiring class roles in random-queue content is silly. They should all work like scenarios, DPS-focused but possible to do as Tank or Healer, just not optimal or required. This would greatly shorten queue times for what will be Normal dungeons and LFR. Let Heroic Dungeons be like Heroic Scenarios and Flex/higher modes: pre-form only. There, the Tanks and Heals will be needed and the community can flourish around that. Or not, if people would rather go into DPS-only content and be happy with that much.

    Removing them entirely just is not appropriate for WoW. It goes against the origins of the game. But not requiring them in every single group-focused content aspect would be better for the game, IMO.

  20. #80
    3 DPS in a scenario plays a lot like GW2, especially if they're hybrid DPS.
    For anything beyond that: Been there, done that, left those games.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •