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  1. #1

    1st World Problems - Raiding

    Ugh, I'm the guild master of a heroic raiding guild. The purpose of the guild was to have a focused progression raid group that only raids for 12 hours a week max so people have their game time while still having ample time to do things outside of WoW, especially weekends. Recently, I heard of a friend mention to me that he has a friend from an old guild looking for a raid spot. Well, I needed a tank and invited him. Started clearing heroics until about 10 o'clock when he says he needs to go. We ask why and he just says he needs to go, so we get up to malkorok and end for the night. Heard later his dad was in the hospital. Now before you think I'm a heartless, read the entire story. I tried to get in touch with him yesterday and today and have not heard anything except stuff from his friends, and one that informed me he's turned into a flake. So now, I have to consider that he might of decided against raiding this week, hell, he could have made it all up, it wouldn't be the first time I've had to deal with a liar. Against my better judgement, I decided to vent on a board with a wow thread. Apparently, I'm just an inconsiderate jerk and should let him do as he pleases because wow's just a game and blah blah blah, all the while I have raiders with pitchforks wanting me to cut him loose for wasting our time, including his friend who referred him to me.

    I thought I made it clear while screening him that our guild is a meant to progress and by expressing intent to raid with us, they are expected to be there or communicate with us that they won't be there. I understand life happens, but my guild has lives, goals, and plans. I stress attendance because it is by far the problem that constantly keeps my members from doing the things they want to do. If they can't, post, let someone know, I don't care how obscure. I just need to know so I can try and put something together. In all my time I have been a GM, the only people who couldn't find the time to let me know what's up were the ones who didn't care to. I try to work things out, make adjustments, compromise, all the while having people clawing at me on what I should do. I take it all with stride, but it does wear on me. I almost lost it on that one thread, I didn't have anything personal against the guy, but I have to do what's best for my guild.

    While no doubt most of the readers here will ask "where's the substitutes?" We have a 3 person bench, 3 people were out this week who made it known that life happened, he was the 4th and I had to get an answer from him. I'm tired of being told it's just a game, I can't get the guild to progress without people showing up. And then what about my members, they're my friends, I personally keep in touch with everyone of them to make sure their needs are met or just to be there for them, and we want to finish this fucking raid. Hell, it's led to a relationship with my raid leader that has gotten serious recently. Point is, we want people to know what they're getting into and what's expected of them on this team.

    Any tips on how to deal with the pressure? Especially since I am still planning ways to keep things interesting till WoD releases. This is just absolutely a no win situation for me, so in all honesty, I really don't care if someone thinks what I did was wrong. If you want to say it to get under my skin, go for it.
    Your powers are useless on me you silly billy...

  2. #2
    I've been both raid leader once, and guild leader once. Being raid leader is quite fun, being guild leader isn't. Especially in a guild raiding 12 hours per week (jesus 12 hours, I'm done with raiding with 6 hours per week) being guild leader will take it's toll. Either learn to live with it, or pass your guild leadership to someone else.

  3. #3
    It's just a game, true. The time people are comitting to it is very real though and thus they will tend to get upset if it is wasted by someone without any apparent reason. Give the guy a chance to explain, if he doesn't bother, axe him.

    As for the pressure, take a deep breath and give it a few nights rest. From my experience people will get over it, but if the problem persists of people being pushy you need to adress them and clearly state that you are doing your best and that they need to step off.

  4. #4
    Kick him.

    If he can't be bothered to put the effort in, why should you?
    Don't give into the pressure, you're the guild master, you do what you think is best and your guild will stick behind you.
    Communication with your officer team is pretty vital, makes sure they know whats happening, and make sure you don't promote twats to officer.

    Have some confidence, be that friendly welcoming GM guy, but don't take any shit, stick up for yourself man, people won't do it for you.
    Last edited by exaflare; 2014-03-28 at 09:31 AM.

  5. #5
    Only thing you can do is outline your goals and expectations clearly at recruitment time. If you are having these problems now you are just going to have to reshuffle. Ultimately people are going do be doing things they don't want to be doing. The only mitigating circumstance is that it is the end of an expansion and people do get burnout so you can decide if that is reasonable.

    Just as an aside, "it is just a game" is (or was) the fastest way to get yourself benched or booted from my guild. It is basically like saying you don't respect my time. WoW is really the same as any other team activity. My mate would be pretty pissed off if he asked me to co drive for him for a rally season and I just decide that it is a bit of fun half way through so I can just stop doing it. I guess that would be different from wow because? Yep it is not. Might be more expensive but ultimately it is something you do to chew up your free time because it is fun. Internet makes assholes out of everyone.

    Only other thing is don't lose your shit and make an ass of yourself by trying to be overbearing. Just make a plan and communicate with people.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Inval1d View Post
    It's just a game, true. The time people are comitting to it is very real though and thus they will tend to get upset if it is wasted by someone without any apparent reason. Give the guy a chance to explain, if he doesn't bother, axe him.

    As for the pressure, take a deep breath and give it a few nights rest. From my experience people will get over it, but if the problem persists of people being pushy you need to adress them and clearly state that you are doing your best and that they need to step off.
    Oh I've done that, did last week, did it the week before, and it has been the topic for discussion several times this patch. I'm afraid the time for talk is over and I have to take action for the sake of returning to normalcy, even if it means I have to be a bad guy to some. I haven't removed him from the guild, but I already have found another person to do the job next week. If he want's to raid again, he'll have to wait for a spot to open up where we can shuffle him in.
    Your powers are useless on me you silly billy...

  7. #7
    Warchief Anzen's Avatar
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    Currently GM and raid leading my alt guild through heroics and have some common difficulties.

    If a raider of mine doesn't show up with a reason, he won't get a spot next raid if someone needs over him.
    If a raider of mine doesn't show up multiple times with a reason, he won't raid.
    If he does have a reason, there's not much you can about real life: pug his replacement and do the best you can.

    If raiders of mine complain about someone, let them have their whinge, it'll make them feel better, just tell them you're thinking on it and that doing what is in the guild's interest is your top priority.

    If I was in your shoes, I'd start recruiting for a new tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xada View Post
    Any tips on how to deal with the pressure?
    People in general enjoy moaning, and it helps them vent. As long as you don't take anything personally, and let your guild know your stance on things, who really cares if they moan.

    If it really gets to you, there's always plan B: "we're going to pug a tank and if anyone has a f***ing problem with it, leave the raid so I can find a replacement for you to", though raging never pays off.
    Last edited by Anzen; 2014-03-28 at 09:50 AM.

  8. #8
    Well if his dad really is in the hospital is it weird for him not to log onto a forum/game and tell everyone what is going on? (if it is still a stressful situation regarding his dad if he lives or not)

    I mean he is new. But being new also means that he has no real bond/connection with you guys = less likely to care enough

    I am not saying he is well within his rights or any of that. I was once a GM of a heroic 25 man guild for 7 years aswell as recruitment officer and also did the raidroster. (who sits out and who cannot come etc)

    But seeing as he said: "I need to go" without any explanation at the time, would cause me to think he is lying aswell. I had my dad going to the hospital once, I just said; Guys I need to go my dad is not well and needs to go to the hospital and so will I, sorry" and logged off. Everyone understood. Though I did post something on the forums (our guildforums) the next day on how my dad was doing and what kind of impact it would have on my raiding in the comming weeks.

    Then again I was 30 or something at the time, not some stupid kid you are describing.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Xada View Post
    Oh I've done that, did last week, did it the week before, and it has been the topic for discussion several times this patch. I'm afraid the time for talk is over and I have to take action for the sake of returning to normalcy, even if it means I have to be a bad guy to some. I haven't removed him from the guild, but I already have found another person to do the job next week. If he want's to raid again, he'll have to wait for a spot to open up where we can shuffle him in.
    Seems like the most reasonable solution, not sure why you need to get yourself so worked up over it really. Treat it as an unsuccessful trial, (Although if his Dad really is in the hospital I can perfectly understand why that is taking priority over WoW), move forward and get another replacement in.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    Currently GM and raid leading my alt guild through heroics and have some common difficulties.

    If a raider of mine doesn't show up with a reason, he won't get a spot next raid if someone needs over him.
    If a raider of mine doesn't show up multiple times with a reason, he won't raid.
    If he does have a reason, there's not much you can about real life: pug his replacement and do the best you can.

    If raiders of mine complain about someone, let them have their whinge, it'll make them feel better, just tell them you're thinking on it and that doing what is in the guild's interest is your top priority.

    If I was in your shoes, I'd start recruiting for a new tank.



    People in general enjoy moaning, and it helps them vent. As long as you don't take anything personally, and let your guild know your stance on things, who really cares if they moan.

    If it really gets to you, there's always plan B: "we're going to pug a tank and if anyone has a f***ing problem with it, leave the raid so I can find a replacement for you to", though raging never pays off.
    That's actually the plan, and listening to members vent helps me map out personal needs, especially when we have to tweak popular strats to fit the raids tolerances. Also, helps me stop issues before it becomes a problem, luckily i've only had to deal with one race issue before.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Well if his dad really is in the hospital is it weird for him not to log onto a forum/game and tell everyone what is going on? (if it is still a stressful situation regarding his dad if he lives or not)

    I mean he is new. But being new also means that he has no real bond/connection with you guys = less likely to care enough

    I am not saying he is well within his rights or any of that. I was once a GM of a heroic 25 man guild for 7 years aswell as recruitment officer and also did the raidroster. (who sits out and who cannot come etc)

    But seeing as he said: "I need to go" without any explanation at the time, would cause me to think he is lying aswell. I had my dad going to the hospital once, I just said; Guys I need to go my dad is not well and needs to go to the hospital and so will I, sorry" and logged off. Everyone understood. Though I did post something on the forums (our guildforums) the next day on how my dad was doing and what kind of impact it would have on my raiding in the comming weeks.

    Then again I was 30 or something at the time, not some stupid kid you are describing.
    This guy is a man who's older than I am and we have someone with his number who we asked to text him to see what's going on. My hope was to clear things up and see what we could do, but you know how that turned out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinch View Post
    Seems like the most reasonable solution, not sure why you need to get yourself so worked up over it really. Treat it as an unsuccessful trial, (Although if his Dad really is in the hospital I can perfectly understand why that is taking priority over WoW), move forward and get another replacement in.
    Oh, I'm not mad at the guy at all if he had to deal with more pressing matters, family is far more important than any game. I just can't do him any favors when I don't know what's going on is all.
    Your powers are useless on me you silly billy...

  11. #11
    The Patient
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    Sadly, less and less people are willing to commit to a fixed schedule, or put any effort into a team's success. Majority expects to hop in at their convinience with little regard for anyone else.

    However, few things:

    1. Do you have clear guild/raiding rules for players to refer to?
    2. Do you have an app system in place? I know a lot of people think it's a silly waste of time, but I found that it serves my guild really well. If someone is not willing to put in half and hour to read up about how we tick and present himself in a comprehensive application, chances are, he/she are too hot headed for what we're after anyhow. As a guild, we always paid less attention to gear and experience, and more to an individual's attitude and motivation. Don't go after those that can raid, rather those that want to raid. And last but not least - getting into a guild and raiding on the first night as a tank, usually shows the guild is rather desperate - in some cases, people will try to take advantage of that status.

    If the guy is not reachable, I'd give him the boot - not necessarily from the guild, as you really don't seem to have a way to find out if he is really lying or not, but stick him on whatever social rank you may have and just carry on, look for a replacement. There are very few situations in life that do not allow you to communicate nowadays. If he has a mean to communicate with his "friend", he surely can find a way to communicate with you or your officers.

    Also, get a guild forum, loads of options out there, and it gives people a way to pass on information whenever, wherever without the need to log into the game.

  12. #12
    The thing is >>heroic raiding it's not just a game<< People just seriously need to get this out of their mind. Why? Because when you don't show up for whatever reason, you are wasting 24 other people's time creating frustration and drama. Time is not extensible.
    Imagine a football game ("GAME" right?) where one player don't show up and the team forfeit, you don't go saying "np it's just a game", the team members will probably be ultra pissed about it.

    Sure there can be special situations like hospital, death, etc... you need to be considerate about it but the world doesn't stop, 24 team members are still there waiting.

    As for the pressure I'm sorry but in my few years of raidlead I didn't find anything than just to bear with it. Just take some time to yourself to evacuate the stress, go to the movies, don't read the guild chat, go out, etc...

  13. #13
    It is just a game. So he should not get upset if you replace him

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by fafaru27 View Post
    The thing is >>heroic raiding it's not just a game<< People just seriously need to get this out of their mind. Why? Because when you don't show up for whatever reason, you are wasting 24 other people's time creating frustration and drama. Time is not extensible.
    Imagine a football game ("GAME" right?) where one player don't show up and the team forfeit, you don't go saying "np it's just a game", the team members will probably be ultra pissed about it.
    People who say: relax is it just a game, are so ignorant. Truly ignorant.

    Now I am not talking about all those casual people who come online once a month to play the game and hope they can get a spot, which they do because well thats how the guild they are in works. For them "it is just a game".

    If you are indeed in a heroic progression guild - or any guild really where you are expected to be there from start until finish on the day you'd said you'd come and then don't you as a player are a fucking asshole - and you the person who claims it is just a game need to organise a guild for a week or so on that level. See if you still say "it is just a game"

    Let's not go to the football example anymore. Let's bring it even closer. Let's say you have a date with a nice lady/guy. You are there at 20.00 in the restaurant ready to order. Your date isn't there yet but she/he told you she/he would be there on time. Ultimately she/he doesn't even show up.
    Pfff it is just a date, take it easy there will be others right?

    Or she/he is there one time but around 21.00 just after the main dish has been served, he/she takes a bite and then says: oh I gotta go to the toilet (never to return) or oh I gotta go home. Just like that.

    Pfff it is just a date right? I very much doubt you would not care at all.

  15. #15
    It may be a game, but the people who are playing are real. Which is why you should treat them with the same respect you would anyone else.

    I think when many forum posters say "it's just a game", they only mean that they prioritize many RL things over WoW because they feel many RL things are more important. I hope they don't mean "it's just a game, so don't worry about being respectful".

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Xada View Post
    Ugh, I'm the guild master of a heroic raiding guild.
    [...]
    Any tips on how to deal with the pressure?
    Kick him, and forget about it.

    You encounter enough problems as guild master, no need to look for more.

  17. #17
    OP, just stick to your guns.

    Yes life happens but I can tell you now the guy is a flake. "My dads in hospital" could mean he has an ingrowing toenail or works there. Sure it could be serious but if it was a quiet word with you would have explained his circumstances.

    If you join a heroic raid team then a certain level of commitment to the "hobby" is implied and demanded. If he can't reach that then give him the marching orders.

  18. #18
    Stuff happens and everyone understands (well at least should) but if he can't be there consistently, it doesn't matter the situation, he is of no use to you.
    If he's a nice guy / good player and you want to keep him let him go casual until he has sorted his life out, when he's back if there is still a opening for him take him back.

  19. #19
    Herald of the Titans miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xada View Post
    Ugh, I'm the guild master of a heroic raiding guild. The purpose of the guild was to have a focused progression raid group that only raids for 12 hours a week max so people have their game time while still having ample time to do things outside of WoW, especially weekends. Recently, I heard of a friend mention to me that he has a friend from an old guild looking for a raid spot. Well, I needed a tank and invited him. Started clearing heroics until about 10 o'clock when he says he needs to go. We ask why and he just says he needs to go, so we get up to malkorok and end for the night. Heard later his dad was in the hospital. Now before you think I'm a heartless, read the entire story. I tried to get in touch with him yesterday and today and have not heard anything except stuff from his friends, and one that informed me he's turned into a flake. So now, I have to consider that he might of decided against raiding this week, hell, he could have made it all up, it wouldn't be the first time I've had to deal with a liar. Against my better judgement, I decided to vent on a board with a wow thread. Apparently, I'm just an inconsiderate jerk and should let him do as he pleases because wow's just a game and blah blah blah, all the while I have raiders with pitchforks wanting me to cut him loose for wasting our time, including his friend who referred him to me.

    I thought I made it clear while screening him that our guild is a meant to progress and by expressing intent to raid with us, they are expected to be there or communicate with us that they won't be there. I understand life happens, but my guild has lives, goals, and plans. I stress attendance because it is by far the problem that constantly keeps my members from doing the things they want to do. If they can't, post, let someone know, I don't care how obscure. I just need to know so I can try and put something together. In all my time I have been a GM, the only people who couldn't find the time to let me know what's up were the ones who didn't care to. I try to work things out, make adjustments, compromise, all the while having people clawing at me on what I should do. I take it all with stride, but it does wear on me. I almost lost it on that one thread, I didn't have anything personal against the guy, but I have to do what's best for my guild.

    While no doubt most of the readers here will ask "where's the substitutes?" We have a 3 person bench, 3 people were out this week who made it known that life happened, he was the 4th and I had to get an answer from him. I'm tired of being told it's just a game, I can't get the guild to progress without people showing up. And then what about my members, they're my friends, I personally keep in touch with everyone of them to make sure their needs are met or just to be there for them, and we want to finish this fucking raid. Hell, it's led to a relationship with my raid leader that has gotten serious recently. Point is, we want people to know what they're getting into and what's expected of them on this team.

    Any tips on how to deal with the pressure? Especially since I am still planning ways to keep things interesting till WoD releases. This is just absolutely a no win situation for me, so in all honesty, I really don't care if someone thinks what I did was wrong. If you want to say it to get under my skin, go for it.
    I'm in much the same position, although we're not a dedicated progress guild. We have 2 teams of which I lead one and I'm the co-GM/team raidleader. The most frustrating and stressful thing in our position is when people simply don't bother to communicate. Not bad players. Not people having issues with each other. Simply not being mature adults and dropping one - f*ing - line on a website or via ingame mail.

    I've started to adopt the policy of simply disregarding people entirely if they just up and vanish or fail to communicate their status for a raid consistently. It's not about putting the game over RL - it's about organized social events, where people put their precious free game time up for a scheduled event, and some people just don't respect that and leave others hanging. It can be incredibly frustrating and sap your strength.

    Fortunately it helps immensely to have an "ally" in a similar position or someone who shares decision-making with you, just like you I have an intimate partner in my co-GM and we vent to each other and decide together.

  20. #20
    I would like to thank everyone for giving me some peace of mind and advice in this matter. It really helps me to hear from those who have been in my position.
    Your powers are useless on me you silly billy...

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