1. #4141
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    "Is Human life" has never been the basis for when it is acceptable to destroy human life or not. We kill prisoners, we let vegetative patients go, we get in wars. You have to come up with someone better than "it has human DNA".
    We share nearly 99% of the same DNA as chimps, I guess that is why I always see conservatives arguing for women to have less rights than animals.

    Stay classy, conservatives
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

  2. #4142
    Mechagnome Randec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    How can you compare the existence of a loose collection of cells to that of a fully grown, aware human woman?
    Yeah, you're right. Only fully grown humans who aren't made up of cells should have a right to live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    As for the emoticon, it is perfect - conservative "logic" always deserves an eye-roll.
    And you always oblige.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    "Is Human life" has never been the basis for when it is acceptable to destroy human life or not. We kill prisoners, we let vegetative patients go, we get in wars. You have to come up with someone better than "it has human DNA".
    The loss of human life as a consequence of a situation has always been an appropriate cause for the exercise of responsibility.

  3. #4143
    I want to live in an even more overpopulated world so the world is depleted of it's resources even faster than it already is. BAN ABORTION!

  4. #4144
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randec View Post
    Yeah, you're right. Only fully grown humans who aren't made up of cells should have a right to live.
    *Wooooosh* right over your head.

    Why am I not surprised?

    If we are talking about who should be calling the shots, a fully-grown woman or a loose collection of cells, I'd say probably the fully-grown woman.

    I trust a women who is capable of reproduction to make the right decision for her own body, without anyone telling her what she should or shouldn't do, or can or can't do. That is because I believe women are intelligent enough to make decisions about their own body.

    I am aware that conservatives feel differently about women and their intelligence, however.
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

  5. #4145
    Stood in the Fire FlyingWoodchuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randec View Post
    How is a fetus not human life?
    In my mind a fetus becomes a person the instant the mother makes the (reversible) decision that she is going to carry it to birth. It wouldn't be covered legally until it meets whatever laws the region has covering it (obviously), but for the sake of what to call it I'm more than happy to call it a human being the instant it is fertilized. It doesn't make one difference in the abortion debate to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randec View Post
    How does asking a person to be responsible with the creation of human life and to not destroy it needlessly make that person into property?
    Asking is fine, but that isn't what happens, it is demanded and legislated. This takes away the mothers right to her own body and requires her (at some point depending on where she lives) to act as an incubator for another human. We don't force this kind of requirement on anyone else anywhere in society where their bodies become are subject to the whim of another (we do have other laws that I do various degrees disagree with but generally speaking its your body and yours to do with as you see fit up until the point you start encroaching no another's right to theirs). When it is demanded that the mother host the child and forced upon her as best as it can be that is giving the control of her body over to another human.

  6. #4146
    Quote Originally Posted by Randec View Post
    Every woman should have a say over her own body. They should exercise that say over their own body and not conceive a baby. If abortion is available to you, then multiple methods of birth control are also available to you. However, once creation of another human life occurs as a consequence of a woman's free say over her own body, that other person's body should be taken into consideration.
    Yeah, no. I'll have kids when I'm ready for it, not when my birth control fails.

  7. #4147
    Quote Originally Posted by DaFuzZ7 View Post
    I want to live in an even more overpopulated world so the world is depleted of it's resources even faster than it already is. BAN ABORTION!
    keep in mind conservatives don't believe in resources. they think you can just invent your way out of responsibility to the environment.

  8. #4148
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingWoodchuck View Post
    In my mind a fetus becomes a person the instant the mother makes the (reversible) decision that she is going to carry it to birth. It wouldn't be covered legally until it meets whatever laws the region has covering it (obviously), but for the sake of what to call it I'm more than happy to call it a human being the instant it is fertilized. It doesn't make one difference in the abortion debate to me.
    The issue is that when you let conservatives have their way with labels, they tend to legislate based on those labels. They deal in purposeful obtuseness, base pedantry and willed ignorance.

    What it really comes down to is this: If you believe that banning abortions and shuttering reproductive services makes either women or fetuses any safer, you are living in a fantasy world constructed entirely out of your own ignorance and hate.

    History has shown time and time again that conservatives have a lot of experience there.
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

  9. #4149
    Stood in the Fire FlyingWoodchuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    The issue is that when you let conservatives have their way with labels, they tend to legislate based on those labels. They deal in purposeful obtuseness, base pedantry and willed ignorance.

    What it really comes down to is this: If you believe that banning abortions and shuttering reproductive services makes either women or fetuses any safer, you are living in a fantasy world constructed entirely out of your own ignorance and hate.

    History has shown time and time again that conservatives have a lot of experience there.
    You're asserting (not necissicarily incorrectly) their position when you do that. There are all kinds of bad reasons to be against abortions and there are some not so bad ones (I would still classify them as bad personally, I have yet to hear a compelling reason). If you start off labeling them and asserting how they are going to act and why they act a particular way you're not going to learn anything, someone may actually have a good point to be made that might change your view, but if you come off with this labelling right off the bat you'll never get there. Now, after trying to get them answer a question a few times and they keep dancing around or keep refusing to answer stuff, well any real discussion is off the table so go nuts at that point imo

  10. #4150
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingWoodchuck View Post
    Now, after trying to get them answer a question a few times and they keep dancing around or keep refusing to answer stuff, well any real discussion is off the table so go nuts at that point imo
    I have, unfortunately, interacted with Randec on these forums before. I know what to expect from him.

    There are no good reasons to be against optional abortions. None. As I said in the post you quoted, if you believe that banning abortions and shuttering reproductive services makes either women or fetuses any safer, you are living in a fantasy world constructed entirely out of your own ignorance and hate. This is what conservatives believe. This is what they attempt to legislate.

    What you don't seem to understand is that conservatives like Randec have already labelled themselves with their bigoted, anti-humanist agenda.

    Also, I don't think they need anyone to defend their ignorance. They can handle that all on their own.
    Last edited by Espe; 2014-04-16 at 02:10 AM.
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

  11. #4151
    Stood in the Fire FlyingWoodchuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    I have, unfortunately, interacted with Randec on these forums before. I know what to expect from him.

    There are no good reasons to be against optional abortions. None. As I said in the post you quoted, if you believe that banning abortions and shuttering reproductive services makes either women or fetuses any safer, you are living in a fantasy world constructed entirely out of your own ignorance and hate. This is what conservatives believe. This is what they attempt to legislate.

    What you don't seem to understand is that conservatives like Randec have already labelled themselves with their bigoted, anti-humanist agenda.
    Different people whom you can put under some kind of general category can still believe different things about various subjects. Saying someone's x and because of that he believe y isn't a useful way to talk to others. Just because he happens to believe something on another topic (and maybe it was on this some subject, I have no idea) that doesn't mean he's going to fall into the stereotype of that camp on this topic. So far he hasn't said anything beyond the normal, he hasn't been as vile about his beliefs, I definitely disagree with them and can back up why, I'm waiting on his response before I even consider passing my personal judgement on his beliefs. You are of course free to do otherwise, but I don't know why you'd bother engaging him at all then.

  12. #4152
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingWoodchuck View Post
    Different people whom you can put under some kind of general category can still believe different things about various subjects. Saying someone's x and because of that he believe y isn't a useful way to talk to others. Just because he happens to believe something on another topic (and maybe it was on this some subject, I have no idea) that doesn't mean he's going to fall into the stereotype of that camp on this topic.
    Even if you could find me a self-identifying pro-choice conservative I would question why that person considers themselves to be so. Besides that, there are always exceptions to the rule, even a broken clock is right twice a day, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingWoodchuck View Post
    So far he hasn't said anything beyond the normal, he hasn't been as vile about his beliefs, I definitely disagree with them and can back up why, I'm waiting on his response before I even consider passing my personal judgement on his beliefs.
    I think it is vile to put anti-science ideology ahead of the health and rights of women. I think it is vile to put such ignorance into law. You, of course, might think it is perfectly acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingWoodchuck View Post
    You are of course free to do otherwise, but I don't know why you'd bother engaging him at all then.
    Shaming racists, misogynists and homophobes for what they are is one of many ways to effect social change. You are free to take your own approach, even if that means white-knighting for bigots and helping them feel justified in their ignorance.
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

  13. #4153
    Honestly nothing she stated hasn't been posted across the internet. Bad arguments for a personal opinion.

    The sanctity of life is not a valid reason to disallow abortion. Life is not sacred, certainly not in a legal sense. If we actually applied these juvenile ideas about life, that it is in fact a sacred thing, our entire society would have to fundamentally changed. All poverty would be mandated to be removed by any means necessary, as all life is sacred there must be equality in terms of the amenities given to each sacred life. We clearly already acknowledge that life is not a sacred existence, but a naturalistic one, based on naturalistic principles. The strong survive, but the mammalian aspects of humans means we still care for each other by the creation of social support structures. So why treat the initial stages of unconscious life as being so sacred, to disregard unimaginable suffering after birth? It's the common callous nature of the conservative views in regards to abortion, live babies to become miserable wretches which are discounted by society.

    She had one mildly applicable point, abortion at 5 months. This is a joke by any rational approach, unless the foetus endangers the life of the mother she should carry it to term. If it takes you 5 months to decide, you're not to be trusted with the responsibility to do so.

    Oh and she's coached, don't even fool yourself. Her parents are so "proud" of her words, because they most likely badgered her with them time and again.

    At twelve I had my first kiss and didn't know what a vagina was, can kids not be left some level of childhood? Fucking hell.

    Oh and twelve year old children from middle America aren't entitled to an opinion on something most people spend their early adulthood forming their opinion on. Little princess hasn't ever seen a drug addicted infant crying for crack. When my mind goes to dementia, I'm being euthanized. I'd like to think I'd not have been born a crack addict as well.

  14. #4154
    Stood in the Fire FlyingWoodchuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Even if you could find me a self-identifying pro-choice conservative I would question why that person considers themselves to be so. Besides that, there are always exceptions to the rule, even a broken clock is right twice a day, etc.
    A person can be conservative about some things and not about others, using it as a blanket insult (same with lib-tard and whatever other clever names people have come up with describe the two ends of the spectrum) just makes you sound like you're not interesting in any kind of conversation about anything and just want to push an ideology instead of specific ideas.


    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    I think it is vile to put anti-science ideology ahead of the health and rights of women. I think it is vile to put such ignorance into law. You, of course, might think it is perfectly acceptable.
    I would agree that's wrong, so far I haven't heard that argument used, but yes, anti-science is a terrible thing to put ahead of the health and rights of women (or, well, anyone).

    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Shaming racists, misogynists and homophobes for what they are is one of many ways to effect social change. You are free to take your own approach, even if that means white-knighting for bigots and helping them feel justified in their ignorance.
    I don't think you're going to have any real success on a forum trying to shame someone who openly admits to some of these anti-choice beliefs, at best you might get some details out when having a real discussion that people who are on the fence might read and help sway them. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

  15. #4155
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingWoodchuck View Post
    A person can be conservative about some things and not about others, using it as a blanket insult (same with lib-tard and whatever other clever names people have come up with describe the two ends of the spectrum) just makes you sound like you're not interesting in any kind of conversation about anything and just want to push an ideology instead of specific ideas.
    To me conservative is an insult. Ask yourself "What issues unite conservatives to use the term themselves." If you answer honestly, you will understand why I find the term and the people who consider themselves such insulting.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingWoodchuck View Post
    I would agree that's wrong, so far I haven't heard that argument used, but yes, anti-science is a terrible thing to put ahead of the health and rights of women (or, well, anyone).
    You have either not been paying attention, did not even skim through the other posts in this thread alone, or are just being a contrarian at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingWoodchuck View Post
    I don't think you're going to have any real success on a forum trying to shame someone who openly admits to some of these anti-choice beliefs
    You don't understand how publicly shaming ignorant beliefs can effect change? I can't even figure out a way to explain it in simpler terms. It has been an effective strategy for effecting social change throughout history.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingWoodchuck View Post
    at best you might get some details out when having a real discussion that people who are on the fence might read and help sway them.
    I see, so you believe that you should have a "real discussion" with racists, misogynists and homophobes, and you don't see how this in any way gives credibility to their ignorant positions - positions which conservatives are fond of turning into law.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingWoodchuck View Post
    But hey, whatever floats your boat.
    Right back atcha.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleSilas View Post
    Honestly nothing she stated hasn't been posted across the internet. Bad arguments for a personal opinion.

    The sanctity of life is not a valid reason to disallow abortion. Life is not sacred, certainly not in a legal sense. If we actually applied these juvenile ideas about life, that it is in fact a sacred thing, our entire society would have to fundamentally changed. All poverty would be mandated to be removed by any means necessary, as all life is sacred there must be equality in terms of the amenities given to each sacred life. We clearly already acknowledge that life is not a sacred existence, but a naturalistic one, based on naturalistic principles. The strong survive, but the mammalian aspects of humans means we still care for each other by the creation of social support structures. So why treat the initial stages of unconscious life as being so sacred, to disregard unimaginable suffering after birth? It's the common callous nature of the conservative views in regards to abortion, live babies to become miserable wretches which are discounted by society.

    She had one mildly applicable point, abortion at 5 months. This is a joke by any rational approach, unless the foetus endangers the life of the mother she should carry it to term. If it takes you 5 months to decide, you're not to be trusted with the responsibility to do so.

    Oh and she's coached, don't even fool yourself. Her parents are so "proud" of her words, because they most likely badgered her with them time and again.

    At twelve I had my first kiss and didn't know what a vagina was, can kids not be left some level of childhood? Fucking hell.

    Oh and twelve year old children from middle America aren't entitled to an opinion on something most people spend their early adulthood forming their opinion on. Little princess hasn't ever seen a drug addicted infant crying for crack. When my mind goes to dementia, I'm being euthanized. I'd like to think I'd not have been born a crack addict as well.
    Well said. One thing to add, though: No one, and I mean no one, is aborting a child at five months unless there is a medical necessity. There doesn't need to be laws put into place that prevent doctors from helping women who do have serious medical issues.
    Last edited by Espe; 2014-04-16 at 03:30 AM.
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

  16. #4156
    Mechagnome Jinali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    Well said. One thing to add, though: No one, and I mean no one, is aborting a child at five months unless there is a medical necessity. There doesn't need to be laws put into place that prevent doctors from helping women who do have serious medical issues.
    I know it's happened here a few times because the woman has been mentally unstable and deemed unfit but that's maybe a medical necessity?

  17. #4157
    Titan Nixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    I see, so you believe that you should have a "real discussion" with racists, misogynists and homophobes, and you don't see how this in any way gives credibility to their ignorant positions - positions which conservatives are fond of turning into law.
    As I think back fondly on all of the times I've been accused of being a condescending asshole for the way I explained to someone how wrong they were, I can't help but think it may not follow from discussing something with someone that you're giving their position credibility.

  18. #4158
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinali View Post
    I know it's happened here a few times because the woman has been mentally unstable and deemed unfit but that's maybe a medical necessity?
    Happened where? Is there a link to the full story from a credible news source?

    Regardless, it doesn't excuse these parents for using their daughter for their own bigoted agenda. It also doesn't explain how taking away abortion and reproductive health services makes women or fetuses any safer.
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

  19. #4159
    In my opinion, I think what it all comes down to is: The woman existed first, so her rights come first. Even if you're going to consider the fetus a "human being with rights," why does its rights suddenly trump the woman's? Rights are trumped and trounced by others all the time because it's kind of like mass. Only one object can occupy any given space at a time. Only one set of rights can apply at a time in this kind of situation. Is it that the woman has lived long enough, whatever that means, and new is always better than old?

    I know I might be acting stupid and provocative, but I'm wondering about some of the arguments that would be made against this.


    Also, I understand the desire to publicly shame people, but it's really not going to get to them unless it somehow happened on a very grand scale. More specifically, it would have to happen within just their own world. For example, if they lived on Facebook or some world like that and a large majority of their family members and friends suddenly started talking against the person's views, then it might finally get to him/her.
    It's more stimulating, and at least more entertaining, to at the very least pretend to argue with them to see their side. Your side could, and probably is, just as mystifying to them as their side is to us.
    Last edited by Senka; 2014-04-16 at 03:55 AM.

  20. #4160
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    As I think back fondly on all of the times I've been accused of being a condescending asshole for the way I explained to someone how wrong they were, I can't help but think it may not follow from discussing something with someone that you're giving their position credibility.
    My point is, I have no problem calling a fig a fig, or a trough a trough. Conservatism is what it is - the people it attracts are who they are. The one common thread that unites them is their anti-humanist agenda. Whether they hate the poor, the sick, the elderly, women, homosexuals or whoever the minority of the moment is, for whatever reason (usually "because religion"), and hide behind whatever mask - they are united by their ignorance and their hate.
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

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