2h frost - slowing things down

[Invrlose]

I have been leveling a frost DK and currently I have the 2h loom so Im playing 2h frost and I've been thinking.

Imagine you are in this scenario: Both death runes are recharging, and you have 1 frost and 1 unholy run up and the other 2 are recharging. You do not have a rime or killing machine proc, and 50 runic power.

Obviously it is not a DPS loss to delay obliterate until the next auto attack incase you get a KM proc... Correct?

- - - Updated - - -

My line of thinking is if you dump your oblit before the auto attack and you get a KM proc then you will have no runes up and you will be forced to use the KM on a frost strike... And as long as you don't cap both runes you aren't really delaying them. Similar to a rogue where its not technically a DPS loss to delay a sinister strike by half a second as long as you dont energy cap.

- - - Updated - - -

My line of thinking is if you dump your oblit before the auto attack and you get a KM proc then you will have no runes up and you will be forced to use the KM on a frost strike... And as long as you don't cap both runes you aren't really delaying them. Similar to a rogue where its not technically a DPS loss to delay a sinister strike by half a second as long as you dont energy cap.

[Kaleredar]

People can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm of fair certainty that it's been mathed out that there's next to no boon waiting for more then maybe a second or so to wait for obliterate to come up if you have a killing machine proc, especially when you get high levels of haste.

[Invrlose]

People can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm of fair certainty that it's been mathed out that there's next to no boon waiting for more then maybe a second or so to wait for obliterate to come up if you have a killing machine proc, especially when you get high levels of haste.

But the scenario I am proposing is that you DONT have a KM proc, so you delay your oblit until the next auto attack to see if you get a KM or not.

[SSHA778]

But the scenario I am proposing is that you DONT have a KM proc, so you delay your oblit until the next auto attack to see if you get a KM or not.

You would use FS in your scenario*. Sitting around is a waste of perfectly fine GCDs.

*Provided that you meet:

So, the logic for OB looks like this:

If you are not wasting rune regeneration, if you don’t have KM, and if your next auto-attack will happen before you start wasting rune regeneration, then stall for KM. Note that the sim will fill these empty GCDs until the swing with other actions like HoW, Rime-HB, and FS; it will not just sit around doing nothing.

From:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...you-feel-lucky

Note that these conditions are more stringent than the conditions you proposed.

[Invrlose]

You would use FS in your scenario*. Sitting around is a waste of perfectly fine GCDs.

*Provided that you meet:


From:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...you-feel-lucky

Note that these conditions are more stringent than the conditions you proposed.

Those conditions are the exact same ones that I listed >.>

[SSHA778]

Those conditions are the exact same ones that I listed >.>

No, they are not. There is a very subtle but critical difference.

Obviously it is not a DPS loss to delay obliterate until the next auto attack incase you get a KM proc... Correct?

if your next auto-attack will happen before you start wasting rune regeneration

Your condition is too lenient, and this makes a considerable difference. If your runes will start wasting regeneration time before your next swing, then you will be wasting a tremendous amount of cumulative DPS due to lost potential (and you may already be wasting originally from GCDs by stalling, as this is another primary source of loss). From your update to the original post, you tacitly modified the conditions from the original question with the inclusion of new information, which results in a different scenario.

Originally:

Imagine you are in this scenario: Both death runes are recharging, and you have 1 frost and 1 unholy run up and the other 2 are recharging. You do not have a rime or killing machine proc, and 50 runic power.

To this original scenario, my first response applies. It is unclear whether your recharging runes will be up before your next auto-attack. There are two cases here: 1) your runes will not recharge before the next auto-attack, or 2) your runes will recharge before your next auto-attack. To be conservative, I did not assume either case and provided an answer that covers both cases. Stating "yes" to your original question when you are referring to case 1 is correct (barring GCDs), but stating "yes" when you are referring to case 2 is undeniably incorrect. I also chose my response to emphasize that you will not just sit there waiting for your next swing--you should be using some sort of filler ability per the priority (FS) to mitigate GCD loss.

In the update:

My line of thinking is if you dump your oblit before the auto attack and you get a KM proc then you will have no runes up and you will be forced to use the KM on a frost strike

My original response still applies to this as well.

What is the difference? You have now included the underlined portion, which implies that you would not waste rune regeneration before the next auto-attack (because "you will have no runes up" after using OB). This is now a subset of the original scenario (case 1), not the original scenario.

I'm pointing out what may otherwise seem pedantic simply because of how simple KM appears when in reality it is far more nuanced.

[Invrlose]

No, they are not. There is a very subtle but critical difference.





Your condition is too lenient, and this makes a considerable difference. If your runes will start wasting regeneration time before your next swing, then you will be wasting a tremendous amount of cumulative DPS due to lost potential (and you may already be wasting originally from GCDs by stalling, as this is another primary source of loss). From your update to the original post, you tacitly modified the conditions from the original question with the inclusion of new information, which results in a different scenario.

Originally:


To this original scenario, my first response applies. It is unclear whether your recharging runes will be up before your next auto-attack. There are two cases here: 1) your runes will not recharge before the next auto-attack, or 2) your runes will recharge before your next auto-attack. To be conservative, I did not assume either case and provided an answer that covers both cases. Stating "yes" to your original question when you are referring to case 1 is correct (barring GCDs), but stating "yes" when you are referring to case 2 is undeniably incorrect. I also chose my response to emphasize that you will not just sit there waiting for your next swing--you should be using some sort of filler ability per the priority (FS) to mitigate GCD loss.

In the update:


My original response still applies to this as well.

What is the difference? You have now included the underlined portion, which implies that you would not waste rune regeneration before the next auto-attack (because "you will have no runes up" after using OB). This is now a subset of the original scenario (case 1), not the original scenario.

I'm pointing out what may otherwise seem pedantic simply because of how simple KM appears when in reality it is far more nuanced.

Makes sense.

So basically if you aren't wasting rune generation, you don't have a rime proc and the target isnt in execute range its fine to delay oblit for the next aa?

- - - Updated - - -

When is the optimal time to use plague leech?

[SSHA778]

So basically if you aren't wasting rune generation, you don't have a rime proc and the target isnt in execute range its fine to delay oblit for the next aa?

I would refer you to the OP in the link I posted previously for a more complete analysis of KM stalling, or at the very least, reading section 7 ("The Answer") of that link. This will give you an idea of the magnitude of the gain you're seeking by stalling.

If you are seeking to break it down into a simple TL;DR (no offense), then more than likely you will be losing a significant amount of DPS by stalling for KM without a full understanding of the opportunity costs, especially given that the gain is already so low. With the addition of an extra rune refunded from PL and the AMS glyph as well as higher haste levels overall since that post was written (not that any changes have invalidated the conclusion so far), there is a much more serious penalty from GCD loss. This is the one loss that cannot be directly observed until after-the-fact (via analysis), and it is a major source of DPS loss.

[Invrlose]

I would refer you to the OP in the link I posted previously for a more complete analysis of KM stalling, or at the very least, reading section 7 ("The Answer") of that link. This will give you an idea of the magnitude of the gain you're seeking by stalling.

If you are seeking to break it down into a simple TL;DR (no offense), then more than likely you will be losing a significant amount of DPS by stalling for KM without a full understanding of the opportunity costs, especially given that the gain is already so low. With the addition of an extra rune refunded from PL and the AMS glyph as well as higher haste levels overall since that post was written (not that any changes have invalidated the conclusion so far), there is a much more serious penalty from GCD loss. This is the one loss that cannot be directly observed until after-the-fact (via analysis), and it is a major source of DPS loss.

Read entire thread... I'm not one for TL;DR. Thanks