Be honest: are warriors really that great in pvp?

[Knolan]

Warrior's have an OP rep because they destroy noobs that just eat their damage.. Any decent player in arena knows they are easily counterable. RBGs they have great cleave and are great partnered with a DK to sit on people.. but the damage outside of reckstorm isn't impressive at all compared to other classes. (And Yeah warriors do insane damage on the RBG chart, but i promise you most of it is deep wounds from tclap or reckstorm splashing.)

And if you honestly think Dstance is overpowered... Lol.

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Um.... warriors execute is most definitely the worst. Kill shot is amazing? And it sounds like you killshotted a warrior in shieldwall. God forbid his cd save him.

Funny how people say: "ONLY NOOBS DON'T KNOW HOW TO COUNTER WARRIORS!!1111", yet they are the top used SPEC, IN THE HIGH END OF THIS GAME. How can this make any sense? The top rated players of the world (which very unlikely is anyone around here) lose for warriors... a lot, but they must be noobs, after all, they are just in the top 2% players of the world.

OT: Yes, they are OP, there as a time were classes would bring either damage, or CC, or support to their teams, nowadays warriors just bring it all, so hardly any other melee DPS will compete with them. Every comp with a non warrior melee has a better variation with a warrior.

[Deleted]

Yeah, warriors are great. High sustained damage + high burst. Relatively good defensives, however defensive stance is really needed. They can still flop over easily by (magic) burst. Their lockdown and gluelike current nature makes them incredibly strong.

[Illana]

Warrior's have an OP rep because they destroy noobs that just eat their damage.. Any decent player in arena knows they are easily counterable. RBGs they have great cleave and are great partnered with a DK to sit on people.. but the damage outside of reckstorm isn't impressive at all compared to other classes. (And Yeah warriors do insane damage on the RBG chart, but i promise you most of it is deep wounds from tclap or reckstorm splashing.)

And if you honestly think Dstance is overpowered... Lol.

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Um.... warriors execute is most definitely the worst. Kill shot is amazing? And it sounds like you killshotted a warrior in shieldwall. God forbid his cd save him.

not even going to dignify this with a response

[Hand Banana]

Warriors do "bring it all" which is why they are strong right now, but I think people overstate them quite a bit. On the burst chart I would put them middle of the pack at best; in sustained they would be upper middle, I have pretty much never played a KFC where the warrior outdamaged the hunter. People overestimate their damage too much, its the fact that their damage is hard to stop and comes with a crazy survivability and stun package is why they are good.

[Boricha]

They have strong consistent damage, very strong burst, high mobility, multiple instant cc abilities, and strong defense. They are considered the best melee by far in PvP. I think if they lost any one of the things I listed earlier then they would probably be fine, but I think they are a bit out of control right now.

I know this isn't a good indicator, but it reminds me, I did an RBG a while back around the 1700 rating and got Silvershard against a team with 4 warriors all specc'd for bladestorm. They steamrolled it; the aoe damage was out of control.

[b1ghead3d]

If you can't outheal a warrior outside of reckstorm you are bad.

[Illana]

Warriors do "bring it all" which is why they are strong right now, but I think people overstate them quite a bit. On the burst chart I would put them middle of the pack at best; in sustained they would be upper middle, I have pretty much never played a KFC where the warrior outdamaged the hunter. People overestimate their damage too much, its the fact that their damage is hard to stop and comes with a crazy survivability and stun package is why they are good.

Damage numbers at the end of arena mean nothing. Hunter has a pet constantly doing damage and has a much higher uptime.

3vs3 is never ended by sustained damage it ends when something dies to strong burst. Warriors can slam people for upwards of 130k per global, hunter can do one of those every 9 seconds and we don't have a crit cd either meaning it's less likely to happen.

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If you can't outheal a warrior outside of reckstorm you are bad.

if you cant out heal reckstorm you are bad. Out healing 130k slams while you're stunned is a different matter.

[b1ghead3d]

What stuns? We just have charge stun. Everyone runs bloodbath and bladestorm.

[Illana]

What stuns? We just have charge stun. Everyone runs bloodbath and bladestorm.

Right, yes they do.

[Hand Banana]

Damage numbers at the end of arena mean nothing. Hunter has a pet constantly doing damage and has a much higher uptime.

3vs3 is never ended by sustained damage it ends when something dies to strong burst. Warriors can slam people for upwards of 130k per global, hunter can do one of those every 9 seconds and we don't have a crit cd either meaning it's less likely to happen.

No, KFC has fairly average burst and really doesn't win games through burst against a comp like mine (godcomp). They win through incredibly high sustained from the hunter/war combined thats pretty much unstoppable and far too much instant cc that keeps the healer from healing for half the game. They constantly get cd after cd from us till about 2-3 minutes in we run out and die (assuming we dont gib the hunter). The reck/banner just gets the big cds like block, disperse, or bubble, hardly ever wins them games. Also, never seen a warrior slam anyone for 130k, 100k is the biggest I have seen against our mage, but they usually sit on our spriest anyway and he takes less (supposedly, since they have more armor than a dk in blood presence, I honestly think they are bugged).

Sidenote: 2 70k kill shot back to back crits on our mage last night from 40 yrds away that has no resource cost. Definitely a terrible execute.

[Illana]

No, KFC has fairly average burst and really doesn't win games through burst against a comp like mine (godcomp). They win through incredibly high sustained from the hunter/war combined thats pretty much unstoppable and far too much instant cc that keeps the healer from healing for half the game. They constantly get cd after cd from us till about 2-3 minutes in we run out and die (assuming we dont gib the hunter). The reck/banner just gets the big cds like block, disperse, or bubble, hardly ever wins them games. Also, never seen a warrior slam anyone for 130k, 100k is the biggest I have seen against our mage, but they usually sit on our spriest anyway and he takes less (supposedly, since they have more armor than a dk in blood presence, I honestly think they are bugged).

Sidenote: 2 70k kill shot back to back crits on our mage last night from 40 yrds away that has no resource cost. Definitely a terrible execute.

This post just shows how little you know about the meta right now, along with class abilities and how they perform.

kfc is easily outhealable if you peel properly. Kills come from random chimera crits along with the warrior connecting when a cc lands.

warrior will never need to reck to get a Mage to block. I do 80k+ slams on clothies just with csmash up and nothing else. My highest slam in arena so far has been about 118k, with no banner just trinket proc and blood fury. Human can easily do 140k+ If they have gear.

Mage taking a lot of physical damage, this is neither new or exciting. Kill shot against mages is like one of the times it's actually decent. Also you have to account for when it just bugs out and doesn't give you the reset even if the target didn't die.

[Hand Banana]

This post just shows how little you know about the meta right now, along with class abilities and how they perform.

kfc is easily outhealable if you peel properly. Kills come from random chimera crits along with the warrior connecting when a cc lands.

warrior will never need to reck to get a Mage to block. I do 80k+ slams on clothies just with csmash up and nothing else. My highest slam in arena so far has been about 118k, with no banner just trinket proc and blood fury. Human can easily do 140k+ If they have gear.

Mage taking a lot of physical damage, this is neither new or exciting. Kill shot against mages is like one of the times it's actually decent. Also you have to account for when it just bugs out and doesn't give you the reset even if the target didn't die.

KFC is healable if I can freecast, in which case they are terrible and I will still oom within 3-4 minutes and they can win. KFC has too much cc to go along with its damage, which is the problem. If I am not burning healing cds or hardcasting big heals people drop quickly, regardless of the KFC's cds. Their burst is middle of the pack like I said, yea they cant drop someone in a trap (who they usually already have ~70%) but thats 8 full seconds + whatever else they can chain it on, my godcomp can 100-0 people in a blank cs (when my team's mage and spriest are actually on the same page). Thats a whole different ballgame of burst. The problem is just that; they don't need cds to land kills or pressure people because their sustained is so high and nearly unpeelable.

Mages run molten armor which is 16% reduced phys dmg, they actually take less damage than non-soul link locks and monks/rogues without feint up. The problem is the hunter who hits like a warrior who cannot be kited. 118k slam with no banner is BS, you must have been hitting a mage in mage armor or a non-glyphed non-SL lock. I just had my 532 war friend hit my lock (just 10% from undending resolve glyph) in a duel and his biggest crit with all cds (+ hes human) was 113k.

But on the topic of warriors, its honestly not the warrior that makes KFC, its the hunter. Beastcleave, thugcleave, PHDk, KFChi, and to a lesser extent jungle, are all viable without the warrior. IMO thug and PHDk are significantly better comps than KFC, and beastcleave randomly 1shotting people with ascendance is ridiculous as well. The warrior is just an annoyance; hes going to do good damage and good burst and control/stun his target alot and hes going to be insanely difficult to peel or kill, you kind of just cc him and ignore him, or try to switch when hes in battle or when he overextends (although a decent warrior will almost never die).

What exactly do I not understand btw? 2100 KFCs that just tunnel my spriest with almost unhealable damage and randomly throw out cc and often overlap and still kill because that comp is retarded?

[Illana]

KFC is healable if I can freecast, in which case they are terrible and I will still oom within 3-4 minutes and they can win. KFC has too much cc to go along with its damage, which is the problem. If I am not burning healing cds or hardcasting big heals people drop quickly, regardless of the KFC's cds. Their burst is middle of the pack like I said, yea they cant drop someone in a trap (who they usually already have ~70%) but thats 8 full seconds + whatever else they can chain it on, my godcomp can 100-0 people in a blank cs (when my team's mage and spriest are actually on the same page). Thats a whole different ballgame of burst. The problem is just that; they don't need cds to land kills or pressure people because their sustained is so high and nearly unpeelable.

Mages run molten armor which is 16% reduced phys dmg, they actually take less damage than non-soul link locks and monks/rogues without feint up. The problem is the hunter who hits like a warrior who cannot be kited. 118k slam with no banner is BS, you must have been hitting a mage in mage armor or a non-glyphed non-SL lock. I just had my 532 war friend hit my lock (just 10% from undending resolve glyph) in a duel and his biggest crit with all cds (+ hes human) was 113k.

But on the topic of warriors, its honestly not the warrior that makes KFC, its the hunter. Beastcleave, thugcleave, PHDk, KFChi, and to a lesser extent jungle, are all viable without the warrior. IMO thug and PHDk are significantly better comps than KFC, and beastcleave randomly 1shotting people with ascendance is ridiculous as well. The warrior is just an annoyance; hes going to do good damage and good burst and control/stun his target alot and hes going to be insanely difficult to peel or kill, you kind of just cc him and ignore him, or try to switch when hes in battle or when he overextends (although a decent warrior will almost never die).

What exactly do I not understand btw? 2100 KFCs that just tunnel my spriest with almost unhealable damage and randomly throw out cc and often overlap and still kill because that comp is retarded?

KFC is healable if your Mage and priest aren't terrible and know how to peel. Also it requires you to know how to exert your own pressure instead of tunnel healing.

if all you do is heal of course you're going to lose the mana war. KFC burst is what makes it good along with he instant nondispellable cc. A 120k chimera along with 110k+ slams is going to drop anyone from 100-0 if you catch them unaware.

the crits I did we're on Druids, so no passive damage reduction only what armour was left after csmash. So your human warrior friend probably didn't line up his burst with both CDs and banner.

[DingDongKing]

I can totally imagine Warriors being ridiculous at 90 in BGs. I remember being on Paladin and getting wrecked by Warriors. Good or bad. Having said that, I'll be damned if people think Warriors are any worse than Mages or Hunters. They're all equally ridiculous. They've got the control and damage whilst being able to outlast most classes. Warriors offer more teamplay whilst in a BG for example, I'd say Mages and Hunters are way more painful given the godawful zergy nature of BGs. Range wins.

[Xucuroz]

Warriors basically have everything. That's why they are considered good. Over the years, the tool kit has just got better and better. It's also a complete pain to keep a good warrior off certain classes, as they can literally remain on you like they are glued. While the damage imo is never the problem, everyone needs a break from constant pressure and warriors generally don't give you a break(depends a lot on class, i imagine the most mobile classes like mist monks, resto druids don't have any issues. Focusing them is normally a waste of time as well as well due to their defensive. Damage reductions? Spell reflects? Disarms? Stuns? MS healing reduction buff? Check, check check.

That said, there's a noticeable difference i'd say between an average warrior and a good warrior.

[Hand Banana]

KFC is healable if your Mage and priest aren't terrible and know how to peel. Also it requires you to know how to exert your own pressure instead of tunnel healing.

if all you do is heal of course you're going to lose the mana war. KFC burst is what makes it good along with he instant nondispellable cc. A 120k chimera along with 110k+ slams is going to drop anyone from 100-0 if you catch them unaware.

the crits I did we're on Druids, so no passive damage reduction only what armour was left after csmash. So your human warrior friend probably didn't line up his burst with both CDs and banner.

Outside of disarming the warrior my priest cannot peel. He has a warrior sitting on him and is 25+ yrds away from anyone generally. Most of the time we get kills is when he is able to land fears which is not easy, pro psyfiends all the way (or they run an rsham and fear is useless). We then have to rely on our mage for peels which he does, but part of KFC's package to be difficult to cc between reflects, rootbreaks, FD, silences, charge interrupts, running rsham then have grounding and shocks also. I would love to come out for cc more often than I do, but getting anywhere in the hunter's LOS is a big no-no as that will usually start a 15+ second cc chain that is difficult to prevent.

I could see that crit slam happening on a druid not using any cds (pro druid clearly) if you had 3 stacks of weakened, the stat buff, and every buff/proc under the sun. However hitting someone normal like an enh sham in a normal situation for instance, you are looking at 80kish most of the time. As I said before, I have played a crapton of KFCs this season and burst isn't the issue, its the forever instant cc chains and unpeelable sustained that wear you down. Someone is constantly in trouble, its not like playing a LSD where getting full feared sucks but not gamebreaking. Every successful scattertrap warrants a trinket, big def cd, or someone dies.

[Illana]

Tell your priest to stop being bad and using psyfiend then. The root is far more valuable against KFC since it basically forces the hunter to freedom the warrior as it's not dispellable and takes forever to kill. 30 cool down means unless they have a pally you will have periods of time where the warrior cannot get out of roots especially as mages have a root that doesn't dr with others.

also disarming the hunter is far more valuable than the warrior. We can't use any of our cc while disarmed while warriors can quite happily use everything except stormbolt.

the difference between you saying warriors can't pull these numbers and me saying they can is I actually have a geared warrior

[Hand Banana]

Tell your priest to stop being bad and using psyfiend then. The root is far more valuable against KFC since it basically forces the hunter to freedom the warrior as it's not dispellable and takes forever to kill. 30 cool down means unless they have a pally you will have periods of time where the warrior cannot get out of roots especially as mages have a root that doesn't dr with others.

also disarming the hunter is far more valuable than the warrior. We can't use any of our cc while disarmed while warriors can quite happily use everything except stormbolt.

the difference between you saying warriors can't pull these numbers and me saying they can is I actually have a geared warrior

Safeguard, masters call, freedom if hpally, tigers lust if mw monk, windwalk totem if rsham, trust me, a warrior doesn't sit in roots like EVER anymore. No psyfiend is doable against rshams because of tremors but its really needed against other healers. Ice ward is awesome but shares a talent place with ring of frost, which is also awesome. I leave it to my mage's discretion, ice ward is probably better though. Ill have to talk to him about it. Getting a bit offtopic here.

Warriors, under good conditions, are able to pull melee range, ok burst, but its not anything special. 100k slams every gcd during cds is good, but there is MUCH worse out there. I did 2s sometime last week hpally/war and we played a mirror. Got dampening up to 78% before my teams war finally landed a kill. They were awful too; doing 20+ second cc chains repentance -> intimidating -> hoj -> repentance without being stopped, still can't land a kill. Part of that is war survivability, part of that is the fact that war burst is average. Never been that high as any other healer/dps comp, my dk kills people usually right at the dampening mark at most. Hunters never get there either because they either die or cc chain people forever and land kills without the need for dampening. Hell I even run spriest/hpally alot and the most ive seen is 50% before we can kill or be killed. Warriors damage is good and consistent with average burst. Its the control, survivability, and grip that makes them strong as a class.