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  1. #1

    Mage Patch Notes ARE Dumbing Down the Class

    Hi there, 9 year mage player here. The reason I'm making this topic is because of the new alpha patch notes.

    One over-arching theme with the Mage changes is that while in any specific specialization, Mages are losing the ability to use multiple important spells while in said specialization.

    Examples Below:
    Arcane Barrage now replaces Fire Blast for Arcane Mages.
    Arcane Blast now replaces Frostfire Bolt for Arcane Mages.
    Arcane Explosion is now available only to Arcane Mages.
    Blizzard is now available only to Frost Mages.
    Combustion now replaces Deep Freeze for Fire Mages.
    Deep Freeze is now available only to Frost Mages.
    Dragon's Breath now replaces Cone of Cold for Fire Mages.
    Evocation is now available only to Arcane Mages.
    Flamestrike is now available only to Fire Mages.
    Ice Lance now replaces Fire Blast and is only available to Frost Mages.
    Mage Armor is now available only to Arcane Mages and is now a passive effect.
    Molten Armor is now available only to Fire Mages and is now a passive effect.
    Shatter is now available only to Frost Mages.

    What's wrong with that you may ask? Let me explain.

    As a Mage, kiting is a very intricate skill utilizing every ability at your disposal to control what ever is attacking you or what you're attacking. With these changes, any spec'd Mage will undoubtedly lose out on some of their ability to do so!

    A Mage is a master of arcane magic and with such should NEVER be MORE limited in their abilities to use said spells.

    There should not be a pruning if none of these spells are mandatory to use. They are situational and give flavor and complexity to the Mage class when used correctly. Anecdotally, I have never come across someone in all my years complaining about the Mage classes bloat of ability.

    After 9 years, I am finally thinking of putting down this game, if this is where the class that I've come to love and master is headed.

  2. #2

  3. #3
    I have to agree and I don't play a mage.

    I understand the desire to remove talent bloat. And I understand the desire to reduce CC. I also understand the desire to way damage and health pools relate to each other.

    But I don't understand the desire to reduce character mobility and the ability to kite mobs. I really don't see the need to convert instant cast spells into cast-time spells.

    It makes me wonder if all of this is driven primarily by PVP?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Binko View Post
    It makes me wonder if all of this is driven primarily by PVP?
    The things you mention, yes. Very highly driven by PvP.

    Mobility in PvP is insane. I remember the day that Warriors got Heroic Leap , Mages everywhere were having fits because warriors could finally, for once in their lives, survive through a Frost Nova. (But usually still die if they didn't one hit combo the mage immediately after.) Instant casts as well, especially for heals. Right now, the class that can instant heal the most pretty much dominates the game. Those heals can't be interrupted, only silenced. And Silences are on long cooldowns.

    PvE healers rarely ever get silenced or interrupted (And usually only do when they fuck up.) PvE players mobility is usually only important for getting out of the bad. These changes are purely PvP oriented in nature.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  5. #5
    Guys I appreciate your responses, but, this isn't about PvP.

    This is about the unnecessary ability prune and Mage's kiting ability being seriously degraded.

  6. #6
    The Patient Anguished's Avatar
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    Remember, although all this could go through to live, this is still Alpha, not even beta, so a hell of a lot of things could change even in the next week.

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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Anguished View Post
    Remember, although all this could go through to live, this is still Alpha, not even beta, so a hell of a lot of things could change even in the next week.
    That is a node of relief but I think Mages that feel as strongly as I do need to do their due diligence to be heard and spread the word!

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    Guys I appreciate your responses, but, this isn't about PvP.

    This is about the unnecessary ability prune and Mage's kiting ability being seriously degraded.
    Which is directly influenced by PvP changes.

    A mage's kiting ability has made it a near-impossible to balance class since the beginning of time. Melee classes get fucked by a mage's kiting, and ranged classes need to keep up with their burst.

    A mage's PvE kiting is going to be affected. There is NO possible way to remove kiting in PvP without directly influencing PvE. And quite frankly, it's a long overdue change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Anguished View Post
    Remember, although all this could go through to live, this is still Alpha, not even beta, so a hell of a lot of things could change even in the next week.
    Both the Bomb tier and the level 90 talents were unleashed in the very first iteration of MoP alpha/beta. They have survived to this day.


    The 'ol "Oh don't worry, its just alpha" will quickly turn into "oh don't worry its just beta" which will quickly (even quicker mind you given that the game is to be released in a few months) "oh don't worry, they will fix it in a patch".

    Personally, I am getting rather sick of Blizz jerking me around. Moreso, I am getting kinda p!ssed with folks like you basically joining every discussion you can everywhere, not really contributing at all, and basically telling everyone that the issues they are bringing up are mute because "<insert some frame of time in the future> will fix it".


    Also, this thread is superfluous. Post your comments in the main discussion thread.

    Inb4lock.
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Which is directly influenced by PvP changes.
    I understand that happens, but, that topic would be about the separation of those 2 entities or why they shouldn't permeate into each other.

    I'd like to keep the focus on why a Mage shouldn't be more limited in their spell choice and how their kiting is taking a huge hit altogether. I appreciate your replies though!

  11. #11
    I disagree. Balance is all relative. If you can't kite something because of cone of cold then you'll get that somewhere else OR the target you're kiting loses the catch-up mechanic. Remember this is for all classes and spells, you're not getting "nerfed" alone. I'm also a 9-year mage and i LOVE these mechanics.

    Also: called it: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1337977
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    I still called it.

  12. #12
    The Insane Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    Guys I appreciate your responses, but, this isn't about PvP.
    The problem is....
    ALL those changes across ALL classes are purely PVP driven.
    There was nothing at all wrong (aside from some button bloating) with the spells and abilities from a plain PVE aspect.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    I understand that happens, but, that topic would be about the separation of those 2 entities or why they shouldn't permeate into each other.

    I'd like to keep the focus on why a Mage shouldn't be more limited in their spell choice and how their kiting is taking a huge hit altogether. I appreciate your replies though!
    I agree with your first point. But what I'm saying is you can't talk about the limited spell choice and loss of some kiting ability without talking about PvP. The whole reason it happened is due to PvP. PvE is taking a hit; As someone who used to play a mage, I never felt like I SHOULD be able to kite around a giant pack of mobs and then AoE them all down. In Raiding/Dungeons, you'll never even notice a difference in kiting ability.

    That leaves ONLY PvP where a change is really made.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by frag971 View Post
    I disagree. Balance is all relative. If you can't kite something because of cone of cold then you'll get that somewhere else OR the target you're kiting loses the catch-up mechanic. Remember this is for all classes and spells, you're not getting "nerfed" alone. [/url]
    Mobs aren't getting nerfed, nor are bosses. This is about more than just PvP. This change permeates throughout the entirety of a Mage's experience in-game. I for one, am not excited and hope virtually none of this goes live.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    There should not be a pruning if none of these spells are mandatory to use.
    So, only mandatory spells should be pruned? *scratches head*

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    I agree with your first point. But what I'm saying is you can't talk about the limited spell choice and loss of some kiting ability without talking about PvP. The whole reason it happened is due to PvP. PvE is taking a hit; As someone who used to play a mage, I never felt like I SHOULD be able to kite around a giant pack of mobs and then AoE them all down. In Raiding/Dungeons, you'll never even notice a difference in kiting ability.

    That leaves ONLY PvP where a change is really made.
    While I would agree that PvP is integral to this situation, it's not the only part that's being affected.

    This game was about using every spell at your disposal to complete your task. If these changes went live today, a Mage's kite-ability would be drastically reduced.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dusselldorf View Post
    So, only mandatory spells should be pruned? *scratches head*
    No, none should be pruned. If a spell has secondary uses but isn't integral it doesn't mean it should just be pruned altogether. What happened to flavor and uniqueness within classes? Why should a Fire Mage not be able to use a frost spell?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    Hi there, 9 year mage player here.
    Not being a smartass, but don't you think that after 9 years it's time to expand your horizons?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post


    No, none should be pruned. If a spell has secondary uses but isn't integral it doesn't mean it should just be pruned altogether. What happened to flavor and uniqueness within classes? Why should a Fire Mage not be able to use a frost spell?
    Not saying you don't have a point, but look at this from Blizz's perspective. The furture of their game lies in attracting new players. How many new spells and abilities have been added since level 60 was cap? How much more complexity is there to master for a brand new player now than 6 years ago? I'd say plenty. There is a need to streamline abilities in order to increase accessibility for new players. Blizzard has always said their philosophy is easy to play hard to master. For that reason, they want to narrow the range of abilities any given class has. Seems reasonable to me.

  18. #18
    Brewmaster matheney2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    Mobs aren't getting nerfed, nor are bosses. This is about more than just PvP. This change permeates throughout the entirety of a Mage's experience in-game. I for one, am not excited and hope virtually none of this goes live.
    I remember seeing mages solo kite the world dragons in vanilla.

    Basically what I am reading is you are spoiled with being able to do anything/everything and kite anything you wish while the rest of us do not get that luxury, and now that you are being brought down to 'our level' you threaten to quit.

    Forgive me if I misinterpreted.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    While I would agree that PvP is integral to this situation, it's not the only part that's being affected.

    This game was about using every spell at your disposal to complete your task. If these changes went live today, a Mage's kite-ability would be drastically reduced.
    And, from a questing perspective (AKA: as stated in the quoted post, the only perspective that matters based on what you're saying), a mage's kiting NEEDED a nerf. You should never be able to kite around a massive pack of mobs just cause you keep them slowed and rooted at all periods of time, until you feel ready to AoE the pack down.

    From a PvP perspective, a mage's kiting NEEDED a nerf. Melee classes can't stay on them, meaning the mage's damage has to be lower in order to keep it balanced against melee, but with high burst to keep it valid against ranged damage, which in turn makes it a nightmare cause the mage will just burst on melee so their burst needs a nerf, but it can't be nerfed because their kiting doesn't work against ranged.

    And finally, from a Raiding/Dungeoning perspective... There is no need for kiting. Your tank tanks the boss, your healers heal the damage, you deal the DPS, and you all do the mechanics.

    So I don't see the problem from ANY perspective, really.

    No, none should be pruned. If a spell has secondary uses but isn't integral it doesn't mean it should just be pruned altogether. What happened to flavor and uniqueness within classes? Why should a Fire Mage not be able to use a frost spell?
    This I agree with. I liked the uniqueness of classes that could use multi-spec spells. When they first introduced Frostfire Bolt I loved it, even if it didn't ever get used by me. (It was an option if my Frost spells got interrupted.) Now, Frostfire Bolt is the starter spell and evolves based on spec, which is quite silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by dusselldorf View Post
    Not being a smartass, but don't you think that after 9 years it's time to expand your horizons?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Not saying you don't have a point, but look at this from Blizz's perspective. The furture of their game lies in attracting new players. How many new spells and abilities have been added since level 60 was cap? How much more complexity is there to master for a brand new player now than 6 years ago? I'd say plenty. There is a need to streamline abilities in order to increase accessibility for new players. Blizzard has always said their philosophy is easy to play hard to master. For that reason, they want to narrow the range of abilities any given class has. Seems reasonable to me.
    My horizons tell me that we should be getting MORE spells, not losing any or the ability to use them because of the specific specialization I may be using.

    If these spells aren't mandatory, then new players don't have to use them. They can do just fine without them and then as they become better players, they can start to incorporate those "back-burner" spells into more complex situations. Don't you think that is more ideal than losing it altogether?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    And, from a questing perspective (AKA: as stated in the quoted post, the only perspective that matters based on what you're saying), a mage's kiting NEEDED a nerf. You should never be able to kite around a massive pack of mobs just cause you keep them slowed and rooted at all periods of time, until you feel ready to AoE the pack down.

    Forgive the frankness but that is just your opinion of what a Mage should be able to do. I'm quite the opposite, I feel every class should have that ability to do-so through their own means.

    From a PvP perspective, a mage's kiting NEEDED a nerf. Melee classes can't stay on them, meaning the mage's damage has to be lower in order to keep it balanced against melee, but with high burst to keep it valid against ranged damage, which in turn makes it a nightmare cause the mage will just burst on melee so their burst needs a nerf, but it can't be nerfed because their kiting doesn't work against ranged.

    PvP is a different beast entirely. I would agree with our previous understanding that they should be seperate entities entirely. But I digress..

    And finally, from a Raiding/Dungeoning perspective... There is no need for kiting. Your tank tanks the boss, your healers heal the damage, you deal the DPS, and you all do the mechanics.

    I kited razorgore trash during BWL progression. I kited UBRS trash packs and General Drakkisath's 2 adds so my group could get a kill. I could literally go on and on about why kiting is intregral to a Mage and should not be limited in any sense.


    This I agree with. I liked the uniqueness of classes that could use multi-spec spells. When they first introduced Frostfire Bolt I loved it, even if it didn't ever get used by me. (It was an option if my Frost spells got interrupted.) Now, Frostfire Bolt is the starter spell and evolves based on spec, which is quite silly.
    Uniqueness is needed imho, and I completely agree that flavor is nice to have.

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