1. #2161
    Class feedback can be addressed within those parameters...

    Asking for details about how a gameplay mechanic works.
    Posting results of theorycraft.

    I guess don't mind me at this point. Either we can get things done and get feedback within the parameters Blizzard has set forth or just keep trucking on at the same pace we currently are. I just don't see people being satisfied without a response in some way which won't happen if they don't get information in that thread.
    Last edited by DesireKT; 2014-07-28 at 04:18 AM.

  2. #2162
    Quote Originally Posted by DesireKT View Post
    Class feedback can be addressed within those parameters...

    Asking for details about how a gameplay mechanic works.
    Posting results of theorycraft.

    I guess don't mind me at this point. Either we can get things done and get feedback within the parameters Blizzard has set forth or just keep trucking on at the same pace we currently all.
    This thread is for:
    Asking for details about how a gameplay mechanic works, so that you can simulate/model it better.
    Discussing how to best model/simulate a rotation/spell/whatever.
    Numbers! Math! Logic! Spreadsheets! Code! Statistics!
    Posting results of theorycraft.


    READ THIS! This thread is NOT for:
    Giving feedback on how a rotation feels.
    Asking if we’re concerned that this spec/rotation/spell/whatever is too weak.
    Discussing design philosophy.
    Wishlisting.


    IT'S NOT FOR CLASS FEEDBACK, FFS! There are plenty of avenues to give class feedback but this is not one of them! I'd wager most if not all of us here that are in the beta have been peppering them with feedback through the appropriate and requested channels. Not seeing Warlock class feedback in the Simcraft/Modeling thread means that we're doing what they're asking of us!

    I'm not asking them questions about simcraft and modeling because I don't give a shit! I'm not on the simcraft project. I'm not building a theorcrafting tool/website. I have nothing to offer or request from them in the limited scope of that thread. If you are, then by all means get up in there and ask away, but to claim we're not giving class feedback because a thread that isn't for class feedback isn't full of class feedback is absurd.
    Last edited by iriecolorado; 2014-07-28 at 04:26 AM.

  3. #2163
    Quote Originally Posted by DesireKT View Post
    Class feedback can be addressed within those parameters...

    Asking for details about how a gameplay mechanic works.
    Posting results of theorycraft.

    I guess don't mind me at this point. Either we can get things done and get feedback within the parameters Blizzard has set forth or just keep trucking on at the same pace we currently are. I just don't see people being satisfied without a response in some way which won't happen if they don't get information in that thread.
    If you don't like "crying" do not read the thread. It is not a good idea coming here and tell people what to do. You disapprove of the content here, you move on, end of story. Who told you that we are interested in your opinion whether this is crying or not? Speak on warlocks if you wish to participate, not off topic, please.
    Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

  4. #2164
    Destro locks using Sac on live -> Destro not using pet resummon/healing -> remove pet utility spells

    It's downright retarded idea but I can't find better expanation after SB mana return change. Fucking Frost Mages got way to heal their pet...

  5. #2165
    Quote Originally Posted by DesireKT View Post
    Class feedback can be addressed within those parameters...

    Asking for details about how a gameplay mechanic works.
    Posting results of theorycraft.

    I guess don't mind me at this point. Either we can get things done and get feedback within the parameters Blizzard has set forth or just keep trucking on at the same pace we currently are. I just don't see people being satisfied without a response in some way which won't happen if they don't get information in that thread.
    "Why was Health Funnel removed for Destruction?" or "Do you think Demonbolt and Cataclysm offer too similar a playstyle, being both 1 min 'cooldowns'?" aren't exactly within that numbers/theorycrafting remit. That's where hands are tied.

    I have posted in the Class Feedback forums quite a lot though, but that forum is dominated by Warriors, Monks, Druids, and DKs; I just don't understand where all the Warlock players who actually give a shit are.

  6. #2166
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    "Why was Health Funnel removed for Destruction?" or "Do you think Demonbolt and Cataclysm offer too similar a playstyle, being both 1 min 'cooldowns'?" aren't exactly within that numbers/theorycrafting remit. That's where hands are tied.

    I have posted in the Class Feedback forums quite a lot though, but that forum is dominated by Warriors, Monks, Druids, and DKs; I just don't understand where all the Warlock players who actually give a shit are.
    We're still one of the lowest population classes in terms of mains. Even with our FOTM boom from Destro our total population is still in the bottom 3. We're just a smidge above Shamen and just slightly better than Monks. The Warriors, Druids, and DKs are 3 of the top 5 classes, which is why they drown out everyone else there. Odds are with the population numbers there aren't even that many Warlock main players in the beta. Given how things have gone I wouldn't be surprised if we're about the most poorly represented class in the beta.

  7. #2167
    Quote Originally Posted by Filabane View Post
    We're still one of the lowest population classes in terms of mains. Even with our FOTM boom from Destro our total population is still in the bottom 3. We're just a smidge above Shamen and just slightly better than Monks. The Warriors, Druids, and DKs are 3 of the top 5 classes, which is why they drown out everyone else there. Odds are with the population numbers there aren't even that many Warlock main players in the beta. Given how things have gone I wouldn't be surprised if we're about the most poorly represented class in the beta.
    Probably right. That taken with that people playing lock now are generally content with being OP are expecting it to remain the case in WoD. As with Cataclysm and Wrath, and indeed MoP, I guess we're going to be looking at sticking plasters in 6.1 when they realise things aren't right and people aren't alting the class anymore.

  8. #2168
    Well I for one have had my lock as my main since WotLK but am now looking at changing to my Mage alt being my main in WoD. I don't think I worded it right when I said blizzard is ignoring us, thats not the case, the person who said they are being stubborn and telling us what we like and what is best for us had it right. I'd be interested to know which classes the top devs pkay, the ones who make the decisions, I'd bet none of them play a lock as a main.

  9. #2169
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    "Why was Health Funnel removed for Destruction?" or "Do you think Demonbolt and Cataclysm offer too similar a playstyle, being both 1 min 'cooldowns'?" aren't exactly within that numbers/theorycrafting remit. That's where hands are tied.

    I have posted in the Class Feedback forums quite a lot though, but that forum is dominated by Warriors, Monks, Druids, and DKs; I just don't understand where all the Warlock players who actually give a shit are.
    You can put things like Demonbolt/Cata into a format that would apply to Theorycraft thread tho. It just requires work getting SimC to do some work with/for you.

    Demonbolt at current values xyz do not compare or play out any different than Cataclysm for Demonology. You spends X amount of Fury every one minute for roughly the same single target DPS values, but the complexity of Demonbolt outweighs the negligible damage increase. Sims and DPS test show there's no value to taking Demonbolt at its current state, but with values XYZ it would be viable for single target letting Cataclysm remain AoE. Can we expect to see shorter debuff timer or more damage put into Demonbolt otherwise it won't compare to the ease and general all around use of Cataclysm.

    Health Funnel
    Destro's lack of health funnel forces players into taking Soul Link in order to give sustain to there pet via DPS at level 100 it would require a minimum of X DPS from the warlock in order to keep your pet from dying while soloing or doing old content. In starter and leveling gear and beginning raid Sims Destro is doing Y DPS which would not be viable for self sustain for a majority of solo content that lasts longer than Z seconds. Are the DPS to pet healing values expected to change or should we see Health Funnel return somewhere in the future.

    There's ways to get things addressed if you use the rules they laid out. They are just picky and want a lot of details and accurate information. They highly value detail and statistics at this stage to help prove points. At least that's what I see and my opinion.

    I just wish we'd get more of this type of feedback into the thread even if I was given all the stuff to post at least it would be informative and factual like I tried to get across in my last 4-5 posts. I just feel that overall we'd get a lot more information out of it rather than sitting and waiting for changes and rehashing last build for 2 weeks.

  10. #2170
    Except we've been told Demonbolt is mid-construction, so even if I had a version of simcraft with Beta profiles (where can I get one?) the data wouldn't be relevant. I'm a lab analyst, not a computer programmer in any case.

    So what about my concerns that are fundamentally objective - Demonbolt being inferior for multi-target encounters, Mannoroth's Fury being a less than zero-value for ST encounters (when compared to alternative), and very complicated to work out the value of for MT encounters as it will almost never be used on cooldown, meanwhile the alternatives are still offering some benefit.

    Or, the Fel Flame/Drain Soul issue of 'on demand' resources to lose a bit of sustained for sooner burst? That's not something that can be simmed out either.

  11. #2171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    Destro locks using Sac on live -> Destro not using pet resummon/healing -> remove pet utility spells

    It's downright retarded idea but I can't find better expanation after SB mana return change. Fucking Frost Mages got way to heal their pet...
    If this is the reason... There's a difference between not wanting to change a lot of things for a class that got a lot of attention recently, and just looking at overall spell usage and remove what doesn't seem to get used without even taking a peek as to why that might be.

  12. #2172
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    If this is the reason... There's a difference between not wanting to change a lot of things for a class that got a lot of attention recently, and just looking at overall spell usage and remove what doesn't seem to get used without even taking a peek as to why that might be.
    It's exactly why Fel Flame went away; people were using KJC so didn't need it.

    I think I realise the issue here. I miss GC. He was actually interested in feedback based on how the gameplay felt, if you could get to grips with an explanation of why something felt 'clunky' or 'off' -something that's actually often pretty hard to nail down, and usually only drawn out after some discussion- it would often actually be taken on board. Now it seems to be all about spreadsheets and solving mathematical problems, and fuck whether it actually plays well because, as Celestalon often responds "you can just pick the other talent" without real regard that that attitude is just going to lead to a dead talent for the following two years.

  13. #2173
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    Celestalon was one of the guys working on Rawr way back. I guess the pure theorycrafting attitude isn't dispelled so easily.

  14. #2174
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    Celestalon was one of the guys working on Rawr way back. I guess the pure theorycrafting attitude isn't dispelled so easily.
    Oh, I remember Rawr. That was always horrendous for Warlocks. :/

  15. #2175
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Oh, I remember Rawr. That was always horrendous for Warlocks. :/
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  16. #2176
    Since I see this being brought back on the table, yes the debuff applied by Demon Bolt which causes its cost to increase scales with haste, the ability tooltip specifically states so. Just tested it, scaling is (unsurprisingly) :

    duration = 60/(1 + h)

  17. #2177
    Quote Originally Posted by Sethesh View Post
    Since I see this being brought back on the table, yes the debuff applied by Demon Bolt which causes its cost to increase scales with haste, the ability tooltip specifically states so. Just tested it, scaling is (unsurprisingly) :

    duration = 60/(1 + h)
    The question was whether this snapshotted, or updated dynamically, and which the intent was? I can't character copy so I can't check myself with Legendary gem.

  18. #2178
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    I'm pretty sure the theorycraft thread mentioned that meta abilities should use the meta damage modifiers, regardless of when the damage actually goes off.

  19. #2179
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    I'm pretty sure the theorycraft thread mentioned that meta abilities should use the meta damage modifiers, regardless of when the damage actually goes off.
    Talking about the DB debuff.

  20. #2180
    Quote Originally Posted by Sethesh View Post
    Since I see this being brought back on the table, yes the debuff applied by Demon Bolt which causes its cost to increase scales with haste, the ability tooltip specifically states so. Just tested it, scaling is (unsurprisingly) :

    duration = 60/(1 + h)
    The other question here is why we would ever really need it to be less than 1 min? Currently it fits pretty well with the glyphed 10 second/1min dark soul cycle. I guess we get into some fun stuff if we take Grim:Service and try to squeeze 3 doom bolt cycles into 2 mins etc.

    Obviously this/cataclysm need some tuning passes along with the implementation of the damage/fury stacking of demon bolt, I quite like it as an extra CD/burst function. Hoping they manage to ensure it resets upon entering combat etc, otherwise pulling with a full fury bar and a high +damage stack with opening (RPPM) procs is going to get pretty out of hand...

    Enjoying the Grim:Synergy so far too. I'm a fan of the current 2p set bonus and +15% isn't something to be sniffed at.

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