Warlock WoD Beta test - General chat

[Lucidious]

Phoenexis has a point though. Why does a spec like demo get nerfed 2 x pacs in a row because of trinkets? I'm sure people remember the moonwell chalice last x pac and now in MOP with the crit trinket. The class or individual specs shouldn't be nerfed because of gimick damage padding that gets smart players on top of the meters. The gimicks themselves should be nerfed!!! But strangely that never seems to be the case "well with demo at least". Seems to lack a fair bit of common sense from my observation.

[Tya]

Phoenexis has a point though. Why does a spec like demo get nerfed 2 x pacs in a row because of trinkets? I'm sure people remember the moonwell chalice last x pac and now in MOP with the crit trinket. The class or individual specs shouldn't be nerfed because of gimic damage padding that gets smart players on top of the meters. The gimics themselves should be nerfed!!! But strangely that never seems to be the case "well with demo at least". Seems to lack a fair bit of common sense from my observation.

...the gimics did get nerfed. DoT/Doomguard snapshotting was removed.

[rhorle]

Phoenexis has a point though. Why does a spec like demo get nerfed 2 x pacs in a row because of trinkets? I'm sure people remember the moonwell chalice last x pac and now in MOP with the crit trinket. The class or individual specs shouldn't be nerfed because of gimic damage padding that gets smart players on top of the meters. The gimics themselves should be nerfed!!! But strangely that never seems to be the case "well with demo at least". Seems to lack a fair bit of common sense from my observation.

Because those gimmicks highlight flaws in the design of abilities. The only reason why MWC was as good as it was for Demonology Warlocks was they way Metamorphosis worked. It was still a very good trinket for other classes. That just happens sometimes where things are better then intended because of the way abilities work. You can either change the abilities of a class to take into account such possiblities so the "gimmick" trinkets don't make those abilities overpowered or you change the "gimmick" trinkets. Or Both.

Every class can be said to have been nerfed for two expansions in a row if you pick and choose what to focus on. MWC and UVLS changes can't really be called Warlock nerfs even if UVLS had a change only for Warlocks. The patch after UVLS only saw a nerf to Demonology AoE so it wasn't nerfed because of a trinket any way you cut it.

[Mokrengar]

Because those gimmicks highlight flaws in the design of abilities. The only reason why MWC was as good as it was for Demonology Warlocks was they way Metamorphosis worked. It was still a very good trinket for other classes. That just happens sometimes where things are better then intended because of the way abilities work. You can either change the abilities of a class to take into account such possiblities so the "gimmick" trinkets don't make those abilities overpowered or you change the "gimmick" trinkets. Or Both.

Every class can be said to have been nerfed for two expansions in a row if you pick and choose what to focus on. MWC and UVLS changes can't really be called Warlock nerfs even if UVLS had a change only for Warlocks. The patch after UVLS only saw a nerf to Demonology AoE so it wasn't nerfed because of a trinket any way you cut it.

Your memory is short. The 20% reduction to Hellfire was coupled with a 30% reduction to Wild Imps damage. As I expect that you will misconstrue this with various examples, I will set forth what is irrefutable: 1) UVLS interacted with Doom in such a manner that it caused more Wild Imps to be spawned 2) a 30% reduction to Wild Imps damage occurred with the UVLS nerf. I do not wish to discuss whether they are related.

[Nerraw]

The Wild Imps usable spell you get from the glyph was nerfed from 5 to 4 as well.

[Crisius]

They could've just nerfed UVLS and been done with it.

It was fun doing 600k dps on Dark Shaman the second week of Siege though, I understand why it was nerfed.

[rhorle]

Your memory is short. The 20% reduction to Hellfire was coupled with a 30% reduction to Wild Imps damage. As I expect that you will misconstrue this with various examples, I will set forth what is irrefutable: 1) UVLS interacted with Doom in such a manner that it caused more Wild Imps to be spawned 2) a 30% reduction to Wild Imps damage occurred with the UVLS nerf. I do not wish to discuss whether they are related.

I said the patch after UVLS which you clearly saw since you bolded it. The patch notes for 5.4 can be found at http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/10788364/#warlock and don't includ a 30% reduction to Wild Imps damage. It was a hotfix on September 23rd that changed the proc rate for UVLS and Wild Imps damage by 30%.

That said I did forget about the Wild imp Hotfix happening after 5.4's release until I looked it up after you mentioned it. It is still hard to say if it was nerfed because of the trinket though. Or nerfed lets say because of the 30% mastery buff for Demonology Dark Soul given in 5.4. But as you said when you aren't discussing if its related even though you are inferring such.

Changes don't take place in a vacuum however so everything that happens needs to be examined. Classes are rarely nerfed just because of a trinket. Trinkets do however often point out problematic areas which leads people to relate two changes just because of their timing. Wild Imps do only 9.1% of our dps (9.7% in T15H with current mechanics). But they still do more damage then in t15. Maybe Blizzard only wants them to be a certain percentage of our dps? There are lots of possible things and the trinket is only part of the equation and not the whole.

[Nazmina]

Or nerfed lets say because of the 30% mastery buff for Demonology Dark Soul given in 5.4. But as you said when you aren't discussing if its related even though you are inferring such.

There was no dark soul buff, it used to give a flat amountof mastery that gave 30% more effect, they just changed the mechanic to make it clearer. Essential little more than a tooltip change.

[bio347]

I'm pretty sure DS:K used to give actual mastery rating instead of the % thingy. They (presumably) changed it away from that because of the amplification trinkets, which would have also then amped DS.

So it is basically a tooltip change, with no effect on power, but I'm pretty sure that was the reason behind it.

[Avikur]

so currently as things stand tuning wise, which lvl 90 and lvl 100 talents are best for Demo and Destro for single target and AoE?

[Deleted]

so currently as things stand tuning wise, which lvl 90 and lvl 100 talents are best for Demo and Destro for single target and AoE?

from what little i understood KJC or Archimonde for 90 both specs.

For 100, Demonbolt did more for me atleast as demo than the other 2.

As Destro I enjoyed both servitude and charred remains, but Im pretty sure that with tier17 set bonuses and better gear that charred will pull ahead massively (with sacrifice ofc, use supremacy for servitude)

[Avikur]

The problem they'll have for Destro is trying to balance Charred Remains and Cataclysm, at what point would Cata be better than AoE chaos bolts?

[Sepelio]

Cataclysm is better on 2 targets, questionable at 3, and no hope at 4+.

[Rayaleith]

Cataclysm is better on 2 targets, questionable at 3, and no hope at 4+.

Ahem... Have you actually tested that?

[Avikur]

CR could be better depending on how many AoE CB's you can get off in the 1 minute that Cata is on cooldown so the more targets that more AoE incinerates you can use and the more targets RoF hits to build the 2 embers needed for AoE CB's

[Sepelio]

Ahem... Have you actually tested that?

Yes, through nearly every boss in raid testing where those parameters were applicable, across multiple builds.

[xskarma]

And the seesaw of balancing pushes Demo back up again. Not sure what this means for the actual balance between specs, but this seems a significant enough buff that Demo should be okay at least.

[gahddo]

Undocumented changes:

Chaos Wave is now 210% spell power
ToC is now 56% spell power

The demonbolt buff is really incredibly stupid. It's going to go back to being 10%+ of our damage, and will probably make demo overtuned. Let's just hope they aren't stupid and nerf demonbolt instead of the spec. That is, to say, the degree to which it was buffed. Clearly it needed to be buffed to keep it the same relative to ToC/SF, but 375% is hilariously op.

Celestalon called this a balancing pass, which is a great joke.

Summary of thoughts:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4636?page=4#67

TL;DR - ToC > SF. Demonbolt is probably stupidly op again. Demonic Servitude is still a dps loss over no talent. GoSac is still a dps loss over no talent. Destro still uses RoF ST. Destro still ooms so hard that SB is a dps loss.

[garonne]

Undocumented changes:

Chaos Wave is now 210% spell power
ToC is now 56% spell power

The demonbolt buff is really incredibly stupid. It's going to go back to being 10%+ of our damage, and will probably make demo overtuned. Let's just hope they aren't stupid and nerf demonbolt instead of the spec. That is, to say, the degree to which it was buffed. Clearly it needed to be buffed to keep it the same relative to ToC/SF, but 375% is hilariously op.

Celestalon called this a balancing pass, which is a great joke.

Summary of thoughts:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4636?page=4#67

TL;DR - ToC > SF. Demonbolt is probably stupidly op again. Demonic Servitude is still a dps loss over no talent. GoSac is still a dps loss over no talent. Destro still uses RoF ST. Destro still ooms so hard that SB is a dps loss.

was reading your comments... your math on Toc and SF is wrong

ToC damage is 56% per 1 sec and cost 40 DF
SF damage is 136% per 2 sec and cost 80 DF

your math has them at

68 * 2 (100% crit chance) = 136 / 2 / 80 = 0.85% spell power per cast time per resource.

56 / 1 / 40 = 1.4% of spell power per cast time per resource.

but, look at it again

one Toc is 56% SP and cost 40 DF and the cast time is 1 sec
two Toc is 112% SP and cost 80 DF and the cast time is 2 sec
one SF is 136% SP and cost 80 DF and the cast time is 2 sec

SF > ToC and it only gets better with haste

edit: your math isn't "wrong", your context is...

[Baconeggcheese]

Tier sets are out.

demos is the most fun for me, 2p is exciting.

- - - Updated - - -

TL;DR - ToC > SF. Demonbolt is probably stupidly op again. Demonic Servitude is still a dps loss over no talent. GoSac is still a dps loss over no talent. Destro still uses RoF ST. Destro still ooms so hard that SB is a dps loss.

SF > ToC

Demonbolts pretty strong now, derping around the last 30 or so doesn't seem insane.

How do you oom as destro?