Rogue 6.0 patch notes

[Feali]

So... I made a Rogue with this new build and ehm... wtf... is... this...

DAMNIT GAME! Update faster!

[Deleted]

Correct me if Im wrong but isnt Combat in a terrible bad state right now ? How does nerfing it helps the spec ?

Number tuning is far from being done yet, there's more to come for sure.

[Mafic]

Correct me if Im wrong but isnt Combat in a terrible bad state right now ? How does nerfing it helps the spec ?



If youre on a fight like Darmac where keeping 3 targets poisoned is very easy its basicaly a perpetual 15% extra energy regen, cant see how the other 2 talents can compete with that.

Probably planning to do something else.

[Feali]

This is the complete Rogue PvP Set if anyone is interested (click for better resolution):

[shadowboy]

Combat Readiness is almost worthless in a raid, but it is arguably the strongest solo talent on the whole grid. I've never been a huge fan of combat readiness- roguewall is just very unreliable and the fact that a whole move is dead versus wizards (right next to evasion) has always been frustrating. I've been in favor of baseline deadly throw and a new move that is good against magic. However, the removal of minimum range makes deadly throw too good for baseline (IMO), and it is probably a valid pick now- I even just made a thread about it.

My gripe with CR is that it gets worse with gear. More agi = more dodge, more dodge = higher chance of stacks falling off. In the event you get stunned, sure the stacking mechanic is reliable, but if you're stunned, you need it stacked all the way. I'd rather it be a straight up 50% damage reduction for 8 sec.

[Karry]

No changes to the useless Sub PvP 4 set and in the end we end up nerfed again. I mean...just wow. I really don't understand. I wish I could be in the room when these devs make decisions concerning rogues. I would really like to hear their personal reasonings and discussion that they have. "Rogues" "Rogues?" "Yea..just nerf something I dunno, change some text just do something so they dont feel left out" "Who plays a rogue anyway?"

[Feali]

No changes to the useless Sub PvP 4 set and in the end we end up nerfed again. I mean...just wow. I really don't understand. I wish I could be in the room when these devs make decisions concerning rogues. I would really like to hear their personal reasonings and discussion that they have. "Rogues" "Rogues?" "Yea..just nerf something I dunno, change some text just do something so they dont feel left out" "Who plays a rogue anyway?"

The 2pc is also wasted most of the time because it doesn't work with Anticipation.

[Karry]

A yea I forgot about the kick thing. Useless as all hell. Basically our set is only good against casters once every ~30 seconds and those 3 combo points arent even that amazing to begin with given how many we can generate anyway. What I also dislike is that there is like 0 creativity in our PvP stuff. Like that kinda stuff is thought about in less than 5 minutes. Is that what we are worth as a class? Barely 5 min of attention?

[Hitei]

Tweeted that talent image @Celestalon but it seems to have either gone under his radar (a pretty reasonable possibility given the number of tweets he gets) or he saw it and wasn't sure how to respond, or felt it didn't warrant response (was two hours ago).

Will probably reply to the tweet for a second try at getting his attention in a few hours.

But if anyone else wants to tweet it at him in the mean time, that'd be swell.

I'm sure if we spam him enough we'll at least get a "I ****ing hate you guys, rogues are never getting any changes ever again, because of this."
Which would be kind of cool.

Edit: I also posted it on the beta forums rogue thread.

A yea I forgot about the kick thing. Useless as all hell. Basically our set is only good against casters once every ~30 seconds and those 3 combo points arent even that amazing to begin with given how many we can generate anyway. What I also dislike is that there is like 0 creativity in our PvP stuff. Like that kinda stuff is thought about in less than 5 minutes. Is that what we are worth as a class? Barely 5 min of attention?

Shiv applying an MS effect would be neat. Not that I PvP or know how well that would work.

[Shaktard]

Those are some very interesting Setbonuses...

[falkiendmg]

Tweeted that talent image @Celestalon but it seems to have either gone under his radar (a pretty reasonable possibility given the number of tweets he gets) or he saw it and wasn't sure how to respond, or felt it didn't warrant response (was two hours ago).

Will probably reply to the tweet for a second try at getting his attention in a few hours.

But if anyone else wants to tweet it at him in the mean time, that'd be swell.

I'm sure if we spam him enough we'll at least get a "I ****ing hate you guys, rogues are never getting any changes ever again, because of this."
Which would be kind of cool.

Edit: I also posted it on the beta forums rogue thread.



Shiv applying an MS effect would be neat. Not that I PvP or know how well that would work.

You have some good points, but I gotta disagree on:

Tier 45: Cheat Death is usefull. On farm days i try to use no feint whatsoever, rellying on Cheat Death and my healers. That's how i farm dps, so Cheat Death is more dps focused than it is Feint.

Tier 90: It can indeed be better, but getting shuriken toss is not the way. I agree, though, on getting deadly throw baseline.

[Hitei]

Tier 45: Cheat Death is usefull. On farm days i try to use no feint whatsoever, rellying on Cheat Death and my healers. That's how i farm dps, so Cheat Death is more dps focused than it is Feint.

Someone said something akin to this in the beta forum as well, but I don't see why.

Cheat death goes off only when you would have died, and it has no benefit outside of that moment--Nor does it do anything if you take a fatal hit a second time, or take a significant hit while in the middle of Cheating.

It can be used to cheat through mechanics that would normally kill you once every 90 seconds, but again, outside of those moments you might as well have left that tier unchosen; whereas elusiveness can be used to cheat your way through tons of AoE mechanics with no CD, as well as giving you a large damage reduction (massive against AoE) during damage intensive fights, so that you are not only surviving difficult moments, but you are saving healers mana and GCDs the entire fight so they can keep up others easier.

I could see the slight DPS change, but it's easy to not use it if you don't want to spend the GCD and energy that could be spent on damaging abilities, and then you still have it around when you need it, as opposed to Cheat Death, which again, is only going to save you that one time every 90 seconds--And requires that your healers have let you get low enough to die AND that your healers bring you back up to decent health quickly because once its gone off you are at 7% health with no safety mechanism.


I guess I just don't see why you would ever take Cheat Death unless the fight has a very specific mechanic that you can use cheat death to break. It's probably not good design to have a talent that's only worth taking when there's an encounter with exploitable mechanic synergy. Also it is infuriating in PvP when someone gets you low and just kills you instantly through Cheat Death like you didn't have it in the first place.

[Linneth]

Baseline Feint is enough for most realistic raiding scenarios, Elusiveness acts as a cool 15% extra mitigation. Leeching Poison is mostly overhealing and deemed worthless unless there is some mechanic where it may shine (Heroic Tortos). Cheat Death is usually perceived as a "scrub talent" because you need to "die" before it becomes useful; however during progression mistakes are known to happen, be it by the Rogue or by someone else.

Basically, I would say that Elusiveness is overrated while Cheat Death is underrated. Something similar happens with Tricks of the Trade, which is more useful for paddling meters than to provide a meaningful raid damage increase, yet it is usually regarded as the pinnacle of Rogue utility.

[Deleted]

My cloak is mostly always up for any type of dangerous encounter anyway. And yes baseline feint is fine for AoE specific moments. The talented feint encourages spamming by some rogues, its bad. Feint activates a global cooldown on your dps skills. No wonder I'm destroying full wf rogues with my 583 ilvl not 1 single piece of wf, me using either cheat death or leeching. Yes leeching, sue me :P

[Deleted]

Cheat death is an amazing talent. Tbh elusiveness looks good but only amounts to 65% mitigation. With any large magical AoE im going to use Cloak 100% of the time and physical AOE feint is good enough and hell i even have cloak glyphed for it. If elusiveness was a true 80% aoe reduction sure i think i would take that over cheat death but i feel i could avoid the death well enough anyway with our base kit. Cheat death is nice as a safety net and mistakes can happen just remember a dead dps is no dps. If you die through 50% AOE reduction well that is pretty much your fault entirely. If in doubt Cloak it out xD

[Deleted]

The defensive choice is imo decent enough and least of my concern. I am more concerned about our mobility tree. How is burst of speed still in the game? This is unlike anything ive seen from blizz when it comes to terrible talent choice. HELLO?! We have a sprint! It makes no sense for burst of speed to be even in the game. Shadowstep needs to be baseline, and that specific tree needs to be foccused on ways to improve ShS. Then we have Sprint to use again for certain situations when needed, instead of spamming BoS like a mongloid. Damn, I despise this talent so much >_<

[Razhiel]

How is burst of speed still in the game? This is unlike anything ive seen from blizz when it comes to terrible talent choice. HELLO?! We have a sprint! It makes no sense for burst of speed to be even in the game. Shadowstep needs to be baseline, and that specific tree needs to be foccused on ways to improve ShS. Then we have Sprint to use again for certain situations when needed, instead of spamming BoS like a mongloid. Damn, I despise this talent so much >_<

I'm new to the class, but this is one of the first things i noticed.

Like, why the hell is BoS even in the game, let alone a TALENT option when we have Sprint?
I mean, don't get me wrong, i like the fact that i can spend 100% of the time in Sprint-Mode, it's awesomesauce - but it really is fuckin` retarded to just spam that button to no end. It kinda nullifies Sprint, don't it?

@Hitei

I tweeted Celestalon a few times, with the link to the picture and the previous one that showed ~90% use on Anticipation. But got no response, which is alright as i'm sure he's bombarded with literally thousands of tweets per day.

We'll eventually get a response, i hope

[Leih]

Baseline Feint is enough for most realistic raiding scenarios, Elusiveness acts as a cool 15% extra mitigation

I think a lot of people do tend to forget that Elusiveness functions on -all- damage and not just an additional increase to your AOE Mitigation. Baseline feint is "good enough" for most AOE damage - 50% reduction is with no cooldown is way more than most other classes can offer. The additional ~15% from Elusiveness is cool, but usually not a difference maker.

But Elusiveness actually improves the ability in other ways, because it means you can also Feint for a 30% reduction on single target damage. That means it works on things like DoTs and debuffs, which baseline Feint does nothing to prevent.

Yes, it's a slight DPS loss (or a major one if you go full retard and spam it constantly, but stupid play is stupid play, there are plenty of ways to fuck up), but I would much rather have the option of using it if I get into trouble, or need to mitigate a painful DoT the vast majority of the time. For the vast majority of people using feint a few times in a fight is not going to make a difference whether you kill a boss or not, unless you're super bleeding edge, undergeared for the encounter, most people when they say they don't want to lose so much DPS from Feint just mean they don't want to finish 0.7% DPS under their guild's mage or whoever on recount ;P

That said, Cheat Death has its uses, and on some fights where instant-death mechanics can be cheated with it, it can be pretty strong... but I would say the flexibility of Elusiveness outstrips it unless there's something specific you want to cheese through, or you're just feeling lazy (or pushing for ranks).

I don't think Cheat Death is the problem in that tier though by itself. I mean, mages have a similar tier with their Cauterise and that so it's not a "bad" talent (aside from the fact it never fucking works half the time... especially in PVP. Wish they'd tweak it somehow to make it reliable, like Cauterise) but rather I feel the problem is both Cheat Death and Leeching poison are only useful in very specific situations - and by that I mean Cheat Death does nothing unless you die, so might as well not be specced into it most of the time, and Leeching Poison is a niche soloing talent because it's useless anywhere you have a healer, or hell, anywhere the incoming damage is higher than 'light'.

So you have 2 very situational niche defensives, that for the vast majority of the time are kind of useless, and Elusiveness, which is (apparently) the only choice for PVP and arguably the most powerful and always useful in some way in every PVE encounter. I'd prefer to see Leeching made baseline in some form, for the soloing benefit if nothing else (c'mon, we only have ONE non-lethal now, we need more of those baseline for sure!) and have an actual real choice in that slot of the tier. If you had a choice between TWO decent defensives and Cheat Death I think the tier would be in a better place. It wouldn't even have to be a very interesting talent. Even if it was just a flat "10% damage reduction from all sources," or something, it'd be enough.

The point is, you could have some kind of passive mitigation that would be weaker than Elusiveness (but not cost DPS), but more useful than Cheat Death is if you're not planning to die. That would be a more interesting choice, in my opinion. Elusiveness for when you need to sacrifice DPS for mitigation, the new passive thing for when you just want a bit of baseline reduction, and Cheat Death for when you're scared of one-shot mechanics.

- - - Updated - - -

I write way too much.

[Silent Earth]

I'm going to agree with Kae on this one. Cheat Death is a really great talent, and it's definitely invaluable during progression, when you (and your healers) are still learning fight mechanics. There have been many moments where I've realized "I should be dead now", and I would have been without it.

Other than that, though, Elusiveness begins to outstrip Cheat Death in nearly every other PvE situation, and certainly once you begin to learn the fights better and can plan ahead for when it will be most needed. It has a skill cap of sorts in that you shouldn't be using it incorrectly or too often, but that's on the player. Between Cloak and Elusiveness, you have the tools to keep yourself alive through pretty much anything, and without having to have Cheat Death as a safety net. Personally, that's one of the things I love most about playing my Rogue. The "Healing Received" meter isn't one people generally look at, but always being at the botton, and knowing that healing is being focused on the one's who actually need it is a cool feeling.

Honestly, in terms of the talent tiers, there are others that are in way more dire need of assistance than this one. Both Cheat Death and Elusiveness have their place, and sadly even Leeching Poison isn't the worst talent we have by a mile.

[Feali]

I'd prefer to see Leeching made baseline in some form, for the soloing benefit if nothing else (c'mon, we only have ONE non-lethal now, we need more of those baseline for sure!)

There's 2 reasons why this happened yet:
- They can't come up with good poisons / substitute talents and that's why we don't get anything
- They just don't bother to think (which is more likely because let's face it: Every one in this forum has better ideas than them)