Rogue 6.0 patch notes

[SilkDath]

Simpler multi-rupture and venom rush I guess, tbh I won't miss combat in the first tier, pretty tired of it atm.

[Deleted]

This is not really Cheat Death vs Elusiveness, but imo Cheat Death could use a buff.

When it procs it should imo bring us up to 10% hp. Right now a lethal blow will not bring you below 10% if you you are above 10%, however an attack against you while being extreme low, lets say 0.1% will still leave you at that and the next dot tick will immediately kill you, which is one of the reasons this talent is not considered reliable apart from it sometimes not proccing at all.
10% hp with 85% mitigation for 3s would translate to 66.6% max health, so one would be at effective 66.6% max health after cheat death procs. If you immediately took a healthstone that would increase to 200% max health.

Edit: Healthstone, not Hearthstone

[Linneth]

This is not really Cheat Death vs Elusiveness, but imo Cheat Death could use a buff.

When it procs it should imo bring us up to 10% hp. Right now a lethal blow will not bring you below 10% if you you are above 10%, however an attack against you while being extreme low, lets say 0.1% will still leave you at that and the next dot tick will immediately kill you, which is one of the reasons this talent is not considered reliable apart from it sometimes not proccing at all.
10% hp with 85% mitigation for 3s would translate to 66.6% max health, so one would be at effective 66.6% max health after cheat death procs. If you immediately took a healthstone that would increase to 200% max health.

Edit: Healthstone, not Heathstone

By the way, Cheat Death's threshold has been changed from 10% to 7% on Warlords beta. I ignore the reasons behind the "nerf", as the supposedly higher health pools and lower damage in PvP should already act as an indirect nerf to the skill for the reasons you mentioned.

[Coldkil]

I think the last posts just reflect the state of our talent tree by now.

We're either in the situation of one talent trumping over anything else and thus letting us nearly zero choice, or discussing if a talent is really useful or not.

Imho, this is simply bad desing. Talents should be easy to understand -check- and clear in their usefulness -not check-; we have a lot of things that aren't simply clear enough to understand for the majority of players which aren't much interested in deep theorycrafting discussion (example: MfD vs Anticipation) and the result is simply that nearly all players go for the simpler ability to use (MfD used correctly is basically on par with Anticipation, but errors will penalize MfD more than the latter thus the average player will see lower numbers with the former, simple as that).

We shouldn't be discussing if a talent is actually useful; we should be discussing which situations favor it insted of other options and where it shines. We all expect form a talent to be usable in definite circumstances.

Either we have less choice and create specs based on the situations, or all talents are interchangeable making us free to choose, but making the choice less meaningful. I'm all for the first option, since it's clear the second one isn't a) much worth and b) not really possible due to the nature of game mechanics.

[Koji2k11]

100 pages of rogue feedback and QQ and suggestions i guess we need 10 times the amount to get noticed by blizzard

[Tecnice]

We're either in the situation of one talent trumping over anything else and thus letting us nearly zero choice, or discussing if a talent is really useful or not.

Yes, yes, but this is how just about every class is. We're not alone.

[Feali]

Yes, yes, but this is how just about every class is. We're not alone.

But not for all 7 talents and 3 speccs regardless of PvE or PvP.

[hYrsch]

Still waiting for the writeup in the official forums of Celestalon. But i guess he will just dodge the bullet and not talk about the talents or something.
I dont know how some of the rogues talent are stil in the game with how little usage they have. Is there even one single at least casual player who speccs into cloak and dagger? Atm talents are dull without choices and nothing changed from mop which is really sad.
But i guess we are just repeating ourselves.

Gogo for 1000 pages, maybe Blizzard will listen to us then.

[Luko]

Yes, yes, but this is how just about every class is. We're not alone.

Not even close. You're mistaking "Trumped" for "Slightly more desirable." Yes, every class has that one talent that's preferable in most situation, but the rogue talent tree is full of choices that would make someone go "What the fuck were you thinking?" if you picked them or that would make absolutely no noticeable difference at all.

There's countless examples in this thread alone and an overwhelming amount of ideas to help those situations, many of which were relayed to blizzard with no response.

[Wow]

Still waiting for the writeup in the official forums of Celestalon. But i guess he will just dodge the bullet and not talk about the talents or something.

Pretty sure he's going to dodge rogues all together as what positive thing is there to even say? Hey cp's on the rogue nice right wait we halfass'd that and they still have the issues that live does.... There's not even anything they put a lot of effort into that needs explaining they did next to nothing and halfass'd the rest.

[Feali]

Pretty sure he's going to dodge rogues all together as what positive thing is there to even say? Hey cp's on the rogue nice right wait we halfass'd that and they still have the issues that live does.... There's not even anything they put a lot of effort into that needs explaining they did next to nothing and halfass'd the rest.

The combo point issue is so weird. Like: you can use Premeditation without a target. But try FoK? Na uh.

[Deleted]

The combo point issue is so weird. Like: you can use Premeditation without a target. But try FoK? Na uh.

What? fok only generates CP on hit, and premed was changed to not require a target for QoL. They are completely different.

[Phookah]

What? fok only generates CP on hit, and premed was changed to not require a target for QoL. They are completely different.

I think what he means is that if you don't have a target when you FoK, it doesn't give you a combo point, but you can use premed to grab some without a target.

[Luko]

I think what he means is that if you don't have a target when you FoK, it doesn't give you a combo point, but you can use premed to grab some without a target.

Exactly what I took from it.

[hYrsch]

What? fok only generates CP on hit, and premed was changed to not require a target for QoL. They are completely different.

you cant use fok when targetting a friendly target i believe. But you can use it without a target or something to those lines. Not that it would matter in a real game situation (not afk'ing and spamming fok that is)

[Feali]

I think what he means is that if you don't have a target when you FoK, it doesn't give you a combo point, but you can use premed to grab some without a target.

Yep /10char

- - - Updated - - -

This is from another thread about the new Coliseum scenario. Now I know why we never get anything good: Everyone hates Rogues because they don't understand them.

don't worry you can still never lose any fights in world pvp due to cloak vanish burst of speed gouge blind subterfuge keeping you in pvp stealth for 10 seconds even with a dot on you.

seriously you think its fair being able to sit in stealth then just jump in at the end? rogues are clearly the scumbag class something has to stop them just sitting in stealth and get them fighting.

[Verain]

I think the last posts just reflect the state of our talent tree by now.

We're either in the situation of one talent trumping over anything else and thus letting us nearly zero choice, or discussing if a talent is really useful or not.

This part I agree with totally. They really dropped the ball with our talent tree. It's frustrating because whenever they DO address it, it's like they are like "what are you talking about, we made it so you can be a ninja, what else do you need?" while ensuring that the druid guy has four specs each with several permuted subvariations, and ensuring that fighter guy is a knight, a footman, a grunt, a soldier, or a barbarian. I mean, we expect the same level of treatment put into any other class. We expect rogue = druid, not rogue = feral, in terms of fucking effort. That is NOT unreasonable, either. We're a whole fucking class, and before all the free bullshit started getting handed to everyone else, we were one of the most POPULAR classes.

Imho, this is simply bad desing. Talents should be easy to understand -check- and clear in their usefulness -not check-;

Here I disagree. Pretend we had a tier that was like:

Option A: Your finishers just hit harder by a lot.
Option B: You have a cooldown that boosts your damage for a bit.
Option C: Sometimes, your finishers cause you to go into "free energy" mode for C seconds, where you gain energy at half the normal rate, but nothing costs any energy.

In this case, I think the question becomes "what kind of rogue do you want to be". Do you want to just have powerful finishers, which combos well with burst? Do you want a cooldown that gives you a better burn phase than the others? Do you want to unpredictably go into a mode where your energy is a different thing entirely?

And you know, just looking at those, that option C would have to be made the best in sustained pve, because the others have other strengths, but a new player wouldn't know that. And I think that's fine. If something is better on bosses 3,4,8, and another thing is better on 1,2, and 10, and the last is better on the rest, that's fine for it to not be obvious on the talent screen- that level of detail is fine to be passed around word of mouth and be theorycrafted.

The warrior talents often combine damage and a CC, and it's not obvious to a casual which is better damage overall. Instead it's about playstyle. That should be the obvious choice at all times, and the balancing guys should actually do their fucking job and ensure that the delta is not that far apart, but also that they all have a use.

we have a lot of things that aren't simply clear enough to understand for the majority of players which aren't much interested in deep theorycrafting discussion (example: MfD vs Anticipation) and the result is simply that nearly all players go for the simpler ability to use (MfD used correctly is basically on par with Anticipation, but errors will penalize MfD more than the latter thus the average player will see lower numbers with the former, simple as that).

Agreed, but MfD being able to be better at single target is fun and interesting, and it's fine if only a subset of advanced players go for it under those situations. What IS obvious is that it is vastly superior if you are swapping to adds.

We shouldn't be discussing if a talent is actually useful; we should be discussing which situations favor it insted of other options and where it shines. We all expect form a talent to be usable in definite circumstances.

And here I'm back to agreeing with you.

[Skarzog]

In regards to talents there are two tiers which are my primary source of discontent. I know people will bring up Anticipation and CND but I will focus primarily on Tiers 30 and 75. I will also maintain a PvE raiding perspective, which I believe is fair since Blizzard themselves has made raiding sort of the centerpiece of the game so this argument that not every tier needs to be useful for raiding seems like crap to me.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the goal of T75, it is our control tier, and every other class has one. I think the issue though is this tier focuses around mechanics which are rarely utilized in raids, being single target stuns and incapacitates. So there are two solutions either include mechanics which warrant the use of a 5pt KS or Invis + CS more frequently in raid designs or make our control tier more raid friendly. Alot of other classes' control tiers center around aoe control, something Rogues lack. I could envision an ability like Caltrops being both valuable and fit squarely within the Rogue archetype.

Now T30 on the other hand is in my opinion just a complete mess. I don't understand this tier at all. Most talent tiers has some sort of goal in mind, resource management, damage mitigation, mobility, control. This tier is just seems like a random assortment of abilities, and not very valuable ones at that. Honestly I think this tier just needs to be scraped and have the control tier moved here instead like almost every class does.

What strikes me when looking through other class' talents is every single one of them except Monks and Rogues have a late tier (60 or 75) which enhances combat in some fashion. DKs have their resource management tier, Druids have their Incarnation tier, Hunters have their Murder of Crows tier, Mages have their Nether Tempest tier, Paladins have their Holy Avenger tier, Priests have their Power Infusion tier, Shamans have their Elemental Mastery tier, Warlocks have their Grimoire, and Warriors have their Bladestorm tier. Why don't Rogues have a tier like this before level 90? Our single role is to deal damage, how is it we are the 1 of 2 classes that does not have mid tier combat talents? I could see tier like this at lvl 75 devoted to making Tricks beneficial for the player as a few tiers have done in the past. Or bring back Shadow Blades and make variations of that.

I think for me part of the issue is we have a control tier that is far too niche in raiding and we have an entire tier that is not really devoted to anything that should be a combat enhancing tier like every other class has.

[Raicky]

I think what he means is that if you don't have a target when you FoK, it doesn't give you a combo point, but you can use premed to grab some without a target.

Not that i like it but it does sorta make sense. Imagine going into a fight and being able to build up 10 combo points beforehand, Be it pve or pvp that's just not balanced. Combo points on hit for fok is the only thing that works. Or just remove cps from fok altogether.

[Leih]

Not that i like it but it does sorta make sense. Imagine going into a fight and being able to build up 10 combo points beforehand, Be it pve or pvp that's just not balanced. Combo points on hit for fok is the only thing that works. Or just remove cps from fok altogether.

Okay, think you may have misunderstood. He's not complaining that you can't just FoK in the middle of an open area with no enemies around to farm combo points. Of course, if FoK doesn't hit anything, it shouldn't generate combo points.

But what is a bit awkward is that if you are standing in the middle of a pack of mobs and start FoKing, you HAVE to remember to target one of the mobs before you start FoKing, if you don't you don't get any combo points even though it's hitting things. If your target in a pack of AOE mobs dies and you cast an extra FoK without targeting something new, you don't get any combos. This seems like a bizarre restriction of combo points are really supposed to be on the Rogue.