Rogue 6.0 patch notes

[Maelstrom51]

Cheat death allows the occasional mistake, which is even more important in progression raiding than farm.

By the way, if something was to kill you under cheat death, you would be much more dead using elusiveness. Ignoring the fatal blow that Cheat Death mitigates, Cheat Death also gives you an effective 50% health Last Stand for 3 seconds.

You're playing Cheat Death off as a bad talent, but in this tier more than half the top rogues specced that talent even for progression.

Elusiveness is good, yes. Very good even. But feint and cloak are incredible by themselves and puts us to the bottom of the damage taken meter already. Squeezing out a little more damage reduction but losing a passive that lets us or someone else in the raid fuck up every 90 seconds usually isn't worth it in a progression environment where fuck ups will be happening.

[Deleted]

By the way, if something was to kill you under cheat death, you would be much more dead using elusiveness.

If you tend to use it at 10% hp then yes.

You're playing Cheat Death off as a bad talent, but in this tier more than half the top rogues specced that talent even for progression.

Who are these top rogues and where are you getting your data from?

[Leih]

Pretty sure we already had the whole Cheat Death vs. Elusiveness argument a couple weeks ago in the same thread and ended up getting told to shut up by one of the Rogue mods

[Feali]

Yes because it's not part of the "6.0 patch notes" discussion. But since there are no patch notes to talk about this is all we got..

[Deleted]

If you tend to use it at 10% hp then yes.



Who are these top rogues and where are you getting your data from?

Rofl do you want him to quote you sources? We have been through this arguement like 1000000000 times. We came to the conclusion while Elusiveness is great on paper, CD is more practical in progression raiding where random spikes of dmg will kill you just getting hit from 2 things at once is usually enough. No doubt feint gets used anyway I mean if you can plan for it using CloS is usually the right way to go instead. But having that safety net is amazing especially in new encounters people arent familiar with. But i think we can all agree Leeching in its current state is pretty useless and putting up recup in pve is a waste of 5cps.

[Deleted]

Rofl do you want him to quote you sources? We have been through this arguement like 1000000000 times. We came to the conclusion while Elusiveness is great on paper, CD is more practical in progression raiding where random spikes of dmg will kill you just getting hit from 2 things at once is usually enough. No doubt feint gets used anyway I mean if you can plan for it using CloS is usually the right way to go instead. But having that safety net is amazing especially in new encounters people arent familiar with. But i think we can all agree Leeching in its current state is pretty useless and putting up recup in pve is a waste of 5cps.

Apologies if you feel uncomfortable when someone dares to doubt about MMO-Champion forums conclusion. I use to watch those discussions of course and Im yet to find a definitive argument in them. So sorry again that I want to know who should be the better half of the top rogues. Anyway cba with more posting since I dont want evil mods to delete ot crap from this topic. Would be embarrasing to have 10-pages long 6.0 discussion.

[DakonBlackblade]

I dont see a point in the other two talents from a pve perspective. Maybe im just that good at avoiding raid dmg?

Didnt they say a few months ago we'd be getting a new poison to replace the paralytic they took out? What happened with that?

Cheat Death can be used actively many times, soaking boss skills like Garroshs Malice or Lei Shens Static Shok for instance. And Elusivness is super strong on fights with lots of AoE raid damage like Elegon, Iron Jugernault and so many others. Elusiveness is also very good on fights that bosses have debuf and whatnot that deal heavy single target damage and need cds/strong heals to keep the person alive, like Heroic Shamans for instance. I dont quite understand how someone woud say they cant see value on those 2 talents based on beeing good at avoiding damage lol.

[Maelstrom51]

Who are these top rogues and where are you getting your data from?

Historical data is difficult but current is easy enough. Just go to http://www.wowprogress.com/ and look through the top guilds' rogues.

It wasn't so one sided towards cheat death at the start of the tier, though. It was closer to 50/50.

[Milocow]

so...
-Death from above : cant auto attack in the air, kills you if mob is on a ledge?
-Shadow Reflection : I heard it copies only your yellow attacks? (Mutilate Envenom Dispatch, SS, Eviscerate, Revealing strike, Hemorrhage (does it include Hemo's DoT?) and not DP procs, white attacks?
-Crimson Tempest damage works like ignite right?
-if shadow reflection copies your rupture, does the reflection's rupture proc venomous wounds?
-can reflection's special attacks generate CP?



Also,
-If multiple mobs with rupture proc venomous wounds and its energy regen, we can keep 100% uptime on envenom buff and crimson tempest poison debuff? (how many ruptures you need simultaneously? 3?)
-How's venom zest for Assassination?
-Venom zest at 15% energy regen is 15% of your whole energy regen and not only the base regen right?
-Venom zest energy regen multiplier effects energy gain from venomous wounds?
-Vendetta perk : best used on mutilate for Seal fate CP regen?

[Feali]

I just read that 2H swords, axes and maces can be transmogged into staves and polearms come 6.0. Went on the beta to try it and I'm a bit pissed right now that Daggers and Fist Weapons are still not transmoggable into Swords, Axes and Maces and vice versa.

[Lesane]

None of your arguments are relevant, you cant simply justify neither of those talents, it all matters on playstyle and also the level of your raiding. So I wont bother with some encounter-specific arguments.

My PoV on this is:

As for mitigation, Elusiveness always wins. Some rogues like to use Cheat Death and persuade themselves, that not using what can be described as the single most broken mitigation mechanic currently ingame is somehow justified by this and they dont want to lose dps on feint also. Well, it isnt. You want to use feint anyway. And that extra mitigation isnt only from AE. In progression raiding where every bit of heal sometimes matter, you are stealing those bits of healing as a class that shouldnt need them (read: smart heal). Cheat death was nerfed to ground and it wont save you every time it procs thank to some encounter design. We are not in TBC, raids encounters are clusterfuck of flying dmg here and there. One second it procs, the other you are dead.

Cheat Death saves you, Elusiveness just reduces damage. Elusiveness costs DPS, while Cheat Death doesn't.

When CD procs you also get a damage reduction to make the chance of still dying regardless of it proccing very low. I can't recall the last time CD saved my ass only to still die afterwards. In 99% of the cases it just straight out saves you. The only place where I systematically use Feint is on Iron Juggernaut and Malkorok if I'm soaking pools really. In those cases I'm using it to lower AoE damage, which Feint does well enough by itself. In progression raiding DPS is often more of an issue than healing, and if you die because you didn't have CD due to one of those "flying mechanics" it's far worse than simply requiring a little extra healing.

[latreese]

I just read that 2H swords, axes and maces can be transmogged into staves and polearms come 6.0. Went on the beta to try it and I'm a bit pissed right now that Daggers and Fist Weapons are still not transmoggable into Swords, Axes and Maces and vice versa.

The tech just isn't there yet...

[Sesshou]

As for mitigation, Elusiveness always wins. Some rogues like to use Cheat Death and persuade themselves, that not using what can be described as the single most broken mitigation mechanic currently ingame is somehow justified by this and they dont want to lose dps on feint also. Well, it isnt. You want to use feint anyway. And that extra mitigation isnt only from AE. In progression raiding where every bit of heal sometimes matter, you are stealing those bits of healing as a class that shouldnt need them (read: smart heal). Cheat death was nerfed to ground and it wont save you every time it procs thank to some encounter design. We are not in TBC, raids encounters are clusterfuck of flying dmg here and there. One second it procs, the other you are dead.

Who said to take CD in order to not feint? Yes, elusiveness is ST also which can be useful but rarely is it ST damage you're taking that isn't a cloakable dot. And you aren't stealing anything unless your healers are hard casting on a higher than average hp rogue which is stupid. Feint will pretty much guarantee you are higher hp than almost everyone anyway and then you just sit there and get nearly instantly topped off by incidental AE heals that would be hitting you no matter what. Elusiveness isn't bad. It is just massively over-rated for what the majority of rogues are using it for. That could change in WoD depending on healing though.

CD wasn't nerfed, and if you aren't retarded it will pretty much never result in you dieing right after a proc. I mean sure if you stand in something, proc CD, continue standing in it, then yeah you're gonna die. If you actually react and do something like pop a healthstone / move / cloak / evasion depending on what caused it to go off, then you're pretty much never going to die right after.

[fierydemise]

so...
-Death from above : cant auto attack in the air, kills you if mob is on a ledge?

Basically yes, also sometimes doesn't actually trigger an evis for unknown reasons.

-Shadow Reflection : I heard it copies only your yellow attacks? (Mutilate Envenom Dispatch, SS, Eviscerate, Revealing strike, Hemorrhage (does it include Hemo's DoT?) and not DP procs, white attacks?

It only copies yellow attacks, hemo and rupture do apply dots however these dots disappear once the clone expires.

-Crimson Tempest damage works like ignite right?

True

-if shadow reflection copies your rupture, does the reflection's rupture proc venomous wounds?

The clone abilties cannot proc anything, this includes VW, MG, FW and poisons.

-can reflection's special attacks generate CP?

The clone does not have combo points, it simply mimics your abilities. If you use a 5 cp envenom your clone will use a 5 cp envenom. The clone is a seperate unit with its own set of debuffs.

-If multiple mobs with rupture proc venomous wounds and its energy regen, we can keep 100% uptime on envenom buff and crimson tempest poison debuff? (how many ruptures you need simultaneously? 3?)

Assassination AoE rotations and how CT fits in vs just pumping out ruptures isn't clear at the moment.

-How's venom zest for Assassination?

Not great, SR is superior on both single target and AoE.

-Venom zest at 15% energy regen is 15% of your whole energy regen and not only the base regen right?

15% of your native (haste based) energy regen.

-Venom zest energy regen multiplier effects energy gain from venomous wounds?

Nope.

-Vendetta perk : best used on mutilate for Seal fate CP regen?

Probably yes.

[Feali]

Basically yes, also sometimes doesn't actually trigger an evis for unknown reasons.

Still? Wtf...

Assassination AoE rotations and how CT fits in vs just pumping out ruptures isn't clear at the moment.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if even the devs don't know.

[SynergyDarkstar]

Are you kidding me? Glyph of Vendetta still exists? What the hell happened to getting rid of trap glyphs that are clear, obvious mandatory choices and allowing greater room for options?

The tech just isn't there yet...

This really does sound like bullshit, because we can already equip those weapons and any attack we can perform with a sword/axe/mace we can perform with a fist weapon. AND they obviously fixed the MH/OH mirroring problem, because all fist weapons were changed from MH/OH to one-hand.

Lack of xmogging in and out of daggers is disappointing, but understandable, since there are weapon type restrictions on those moves (mutilate) (even though we can see the animations on model viewers like wowhead).

- - - Updated - - -

It only copies yellow attacks, hemo and rupture do apply dots however these dots disappear once the clone expires.

Would this mean that we want to limit the use of any dots (Rupture/CT) during the SR buildup (Since most of the damage will vanish when the clone does)?

Also, for Sub, does this mean that the first thing you want to do when you pop SR is apply a bleed for SV?

What about AoE? Does the clone copy Blade Flurry? What about the direct damage portion of FoK?

[ymirsson]

Lack of xmogging in and out of daggers is disappointing, but understandable, since there are weapon type restrictions on those moves (mutilate) (even though we can see the animations on model viewers like wowhead).

Err what? Ever heard of bow-gun- crossbow transmog? 3 different animations, but since we're not hunters, we're not worth some special snowflakiness.

[Feali]

This really does sound like bullshit, because we can already equip those weapons and any attack we can perform with a sword/axe/mace we can perform with a fist weapon. AND they obviously fixed the MH/OH mirroring problem, because all fist weapons were changed from MH/OH to one-hand.

Lack of xmogging in and out of daggers is disappointing, but understandable, since there are weapon type restrictions on those moves (mutilate) (even though we can see the animations on model viewers like wowhead).

If you have Ai-Li's Skymirror equip 2 swords, use the mirror on yourself and equip daggers again. You're now wearing swords and using mutilate. There is no technical limitation.

- - - Updated - - -

Also: Literally every dev stopped tweeting it seems. I'm used to not getting answers from them but I don't even see responses in my feed.

[Milocow]

Basically yes, also sometimes doesn't actually trigger an evis for unknown reasons.

It only copies yellow attacks, hemo and rupture do apply dots however these dots disappear once the clone expires.

True

The clone abilties cannot proc anything, this includes VW, MG, FW and poisons.

The clone does not have combo points, it simply mimics your abilities. If you use a 5 cp envenom your clone will use a 5 cp envenom. The clone is a seperate unit with its own set of debuffs.

Assassination AoE rotations and how CT fits in vs just pumping out ruptures isn't clear at the moment.

Not great, SR is superior on both single target and AoE.

15% of your native (haste based) energy regen.

Nope.

Probably yes.

thanks for answering
DFA uses envenom instead of eviscerate for assassination right?
i still dont understand why SR>Venom zest for assassination when so much % of damage done by DP/VW/AA
is venom zest that bad? it feels more fitting for assassination

[Sicarius87]

Yes they did and then after a while, they said that we wouldn't be getting any new poisons.

What a load. Thanks blizz.

Cheat death allows for mistakes. Not just your mistakes - if your raid screws up a mechanic and 'kills' you, you're still fine with cheat death. Also, last phase of heroic garrosh its amazing for the fourth malice. Speccing Cheat Death allows you to do more fun/risky stuff during farm as well, such as never use feint, which is a slight dps increase.

Meanwhile, Leeching Poison's heal is miniscule and makes literally no difference to healers. The damage reduction from elusiveness during a single big AoE will contribute more than Leeching Poison. Numbers and mechanics wise it is by far the worst talent in the row. There is no reason to ever use this talent in a max level raid, and there is a good chance the same will happen in WoD despite the buffs.

Id rather have leeching over mind numbing when it does next to nothing outside some ads and I never feint. Most anything I need to avoid is spell dmg which I negate with cloak.

Then there is even less of a reason to have elusiveness because what in the world are you reducing with it if you're avoiding the raid damage?

Really elusiveness doesn't save you. It makes you easier to heal. For a small fraction of the time to a very small fraction of raiders, that is really nice. I honestly can't think of a single time in the last month (well longer really, but can't say my memory of farm content is clear that long) when elusiveness would have actually stopped me from getting killed. An extra 15% off of damage that is predictable to your healers too just doesn't end up making the life or death difference. CD definitely does though.

Agreed.

- - - Updated - - -

Cheat Death can be used actively many times, soaking boss skills like Garroshs Malice or Lei Shens Static Shok for instance. And Elusivness is super strong on fights with lots of AoE raid damage like Elegon, Iron Jugernault and so many others. Elusiveness is also very good on fights that bosses have debuf and whatnot that deal heavy single target damage and need cds/strong heals to keep the person alive, like Heroic Shamans for instance. I dont quite understand how someone woud say they cant see value on those 2 talents based on beeing good at avoiding damage lol.

If those two spells are what Im thinking, then those are also cloakable. Negates elusiveness + feint. I guess I just dont raid at a high enough level to actually see a point. Chances are though I still wouldnt spec into it if I did.

- - - Updated - - -

I just read that 2H swords, axes and maces can be transmogged into staves and polearms come 6.0. Went on the beta to try it and I'm a bit pissed right now that Daggers and Fist Weapons are still not transmoggable into Swords, Axes and Maces and vice versa.

They need more fist weapons like Fist of the Diety. Not the stupid ass fist weapons they have now. Or like wolverine claws lol

- - - Updated - - -

thanks for answering
DFA uses envenom instead of eviscerate for assassination right?
i still dont understand why SR>Venom zest for assassination when so much % of damage done by DP/VW/AA
is venom zest that bad? it feels more fitting for assassination

DFA for mut does use envenom yes. Honestly, ill be grabbing venom zest for both pve and pvp as well as the energy glyph paired with Vanish glyph then just macro stealth with vanish.