6.0 Windwalker Discussion

[Deleted]

Except it does. Everything uses energy, either directly or indirectly.

As Total said, RJW should be more AoE dmg now so ChiEx's priority gets all kinds of screwy. So it would probably go something like this: TP debuff > RSK debuff > RJW on CD, FoF on CD when you have the extra chi and the debuffs won't fall off w/in 3 seconds > THEN ChiEX, but only if you have 4 chi to spend on it.

This might change some depending on number of adds, how long they are going to live, etc. ChiEx and RJW are competing talents and in WoD energy generation is being nerfed. This change makes us really clunky in sustained AoE.

Ah, you were talking about not using RJW, and using Jab instead for more Chi / CB procs. Sorry, I misunderstood your first post. But, if that was a thing before the patch, after the nerf to ChiEx the AoE priority will most likely be as you stated. Though there may be a breakpoint in the number of Adds, where ChiEx trumps FoF.

[Krazzorx]

Ok, here's my "noob test" on the new build (no logs, sorry, I may do that later). No enchants, double random proc pvp trinkets, full tier pieces (they are in this build), base pvp gear you come with.

All are done with ascension and Xuen I know I messed up rotations. Popped TeB the instant it glowed. Tried to optimize energizing brew. 6 minute tests:

Chi explosion: priority I did was FoF>RSK>3/4 chi explosion. 22600k dps.

Hurricane strike: priority was Hurricane>FoF>RSK. 23700k dps.

Serenity: priority was FoF>RSK>BoK. During serenity I made sure to use FoF and didn't just spam BoK. 25000k dps.

Single target.

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously don't use that for comparing WW dps to others, just was doing a quick test to look at the actual difference between the talents on single target.

I will say: serenity feels "odd". Obviously it makes the rotation have a pretty good pace to it. Only a few parts of rotation of waiting. But you energy cap a lot.

Is even with the chi brew nerf it better for serenity?

With the tier bonus making FoF give 4 TeB, is it a higher priority than hurricane strike?

[TheLOOGE]

So, after peeking at Sims yet again today, something struck me -- and Hina pointed this out a few days ago:

Touch_of_Death 442 1.7% 1.0 0.00sec 196056

Touch of Death -- even used just once -- provides a 442 DPS boost. In this sim, for example, it hits for 196k. Now that is a huge hit! This got my brain chuggin'. At this point, if we consider un-glyphing ToD and reduce the CD to 1.5 min, especially for multi-phase fights (i.e., Garrosh) or fights with adds (which there are many awaiting us in this first tier), I don't know about you, but I think 3 chi would be well worth the expense especially if we're talking 442 DPS for just one hit. Think about if you could pull numerous ToD's over the course of an encounter... potentially DOUBLE the amount of ToD's.

Another thing to help us with this consideration: Blackout Kick costs two chi, hits for 16k. ToD hits for 196k and costs three chi. You'd have to pull off ~12 Blackout kicks (assuming none of them crit) and spend ~24 chi in order to approach the damage ToD does for 1 more chi of a singular BoK. It's a no brainer for me.

So yeah, for Butcher or Gruul, this probably isn't very applicable or beneficial. But multi target fights? Fights with adds? Whew. Could get pretty ridiculous, especially with health scaling as high as it is as quickly as it is....

[Totaltotemic]

So, after peeking at Sims yet again today, something struck me -- and Hina pointed this out a few days ago:

Touch_of_Death 442 1.7% 1.0 0.00sec 196056

Touch of Death -- even used just once -- provides a 442 DPS boost. In this sim, for example, it hits for 196k. Now that is a huge hit! This got my brain chuggin'. At this point, if we consider un-glyphing ToD and reduce the CD to 1.5 min, especially for multi-phase fights (i.e., Garrosh) or fights with adds (which there are many awaiting us in this first tier), I don't know about you, but I think 3 chi would be well worth the expense especially if we're talking 442 DPS for just one hit. Think about if you could pull numerous ToD's over the course of an encounter... potentially DOUBLE the amount of ToD's.

Yeah basically any fight with more than one target (or even a single target that drops down multiple times and is "healed" back up) makes ToD non-glyphed amazing. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets nerfed though, it's so strong now.

[Minnazuki]

1) So for those of us that will not have 2 sets of gear to swap for AoE & ST fights what should they being aiming for to still be compete in a higher end raiding guild?
I have been in some guilds where the competition for gear just wont let you get the 2 sets.

2) And with this tier looking like it has a lot of multi-mob/add fights should we just say F*** it to single target DPS eat the drop and do really well on AoE Fights? <assuming you geared for ChiEx>

I understand that each talent is designed for AoE or ST I'm just wondering what we should do Stat/Gear wise when both sets are just not available. Or on a side note maybe get 2 sets from LFR/Flex and only get Mythic AoE/ChiEx gear for those who can not obtain two sets of Mythic gear.

3) Is using LFR/Flex gear worth the overall stat loss for ST fights if You are doing Mythic raiding or Vice Versa? aka Optimal Stats vs Higher Non Optimal Stats?

[Krazzorx]

Ya, ToD would be fun on a fight like Tectus or Brackenspore. Multiple high hp adds.

[odoylerules]

Hey guys,

The CE nerf has raised a lot of questions for me (the resident noob). If you don't mind, I'd like to run a few assumptions and concerns past all you leet players.

Even though CE is a bit clunky and the least interesting 100 talent IMO, I was happy about it for the simple fact that it didn't add yet another button to the insanity that is WW button bloat. So now that it would seem that Serenity or Hurricane is going to be the way to go, I'm wondering about how the Chi Brew / Ascension decision factors in. I like Chi Brew but feel like I'm going to have to go with Ascension just to keep my brain from melting in a high intensity fight. How does Ascension look with Serenity and Hurricane? It seems to me that it would be ok for Hurricane but bad for Serenity. Am I wrong?

My second question is about proper use of Serenity. What's the best use of abilities with free chi? I assume that popping a FoF in the last second is probably a good idea but probably not good to use a channel while unlimited chi is happening right? Is it just spam RSK the whole time? Or is there a wiser use?

My third question is about speed. 5.4 WW monkery is really fast, which is good. I like fast. But for my skill level, it gets too fast when I dip my toes in into what is currently Heroic (Mythic in 6.0). I'm just not at a place yet where I can stay on top of my rotation while dealing with everything else going on at that level. However, I seem to do okay on my Rogue, essentially cause it's less buttons to think about. But I prefer monk and would like to stick with it in WoD. So with this in mind, I know that different talents on beta have called for different gear, which in turn results in different speed. My question is first, what is the best combo of talents, stats for a person like me looking to put a cap on the speed of the class, and second, am I taking a performance hit by going this route?

I realize that some of this is limited to speculation until the final numbers come in, but any musings from you uber monks would be welcome food for thought.

Cheers!

[Totaltotemic]

Even though CE is a bit clunky and the least interesting 100 talent IMO, I was happy about it for the simple fact that it didn't add yet another button to the insanity that is WW button bloat. So now that it would seem that Serenity or Hurricane is going to be the way to go, I'm wondering about how the Chi Brew / Ascension decision factors in. I like Chi Brew but feel like I'm going to have to go with Ascension just to keep my brain from melting in a high intensity fight. How does Ascension look with Serenity and Hurricane? It seems to me that it would be ok for Hurricane but bad for Serenity. Am I wrong?

You'd be correct that Ascension isn't very good with Serenity, but after the Chi Brew nerf it's difficult to say. I'd wait on Hinalover to pop up with more sims.

My second question is about proper use of Serenity. What's the best use of abilities with free chi? I assume that popping a FoF in the last second is probably a good idea but probably not good to use a channel while unlimited chi is happening right? Is it just spam RSK the whole time? Or is there a wiser use?

FoF at the end of Serenity actually isn't even very good because you're guaranteed to be at full energy by then, and channeling for another 4 seconds wastes pretty much all of the energy you'd have saved from the free chi anyways. Instead, it's actually looking like it's better to make sure FoF is still on CD for 10+ seconds before even using Serenity. Basically all you do is spam BoK and RSK on CD for 10 seconds, it's like a super-charged Energizing Brew.

[Gaje]

Ah, you were talking about not using RJW, and using Jab instead for more Chi / CB procs. Sorry, I misunderstood your first post. But, if that was a thing before the patch, after the nerf to ChiEx the AoE priority will most likely be as you stated. Though there may be a breakpoint in the number of Adds, where ChiEx trumps FoF.

Yea, I was not very clear in my post. That's what I get for posting early morning on very little sleep.

[Krazzorx]

(Don't take below as gospel)

Well, while explosion is not as good at single target, its still better on cleave, which is most fights nowadays.

I believe in regards to speed its (with serenity being fastest) serenity>hurricane kick> Chex.

[Gaje]

1) So for those of us that will not have 2 sets of gear to swap for AoE & ST fights what should they being aiming for to still be compete in a higher end raiding guild?
I have been in some guilds where the competition for gear just wont let you get the two sets.

Hopefully this won't be too much of a problem, but I feel like we already have to justify a mythic spot since we don't have a stackable raid buff. Now we have to make excuses about not having the gear we need to be competitive in every environment.

As long as these changes don't cost WWs raid spots we can deal with them.

[Jayma]

Is monk gcd still 1?
Would haste allowing gcd to go below 1 second during serenity be a viable change? Calculating haste from a 1.5 base.

I thought one of the reasons for making the rotation slower was to increase the impact of hero/lust, but serenity contradicts that to a point. Haven't played much ww on beta, but I imagine you will EB soon after coming out of serenity.

[Hinalover]

You'd be correct that Ascension isn't very good with Serenity, but after the Chi Brew nerf it's difficult to say. I'd wait on Hinalover to pop up with more sims.

Working on that as we speak. Just as a bit of a preview here is the talent analysis (with all of last night changes) using the PvP gear set (running a talent analysis using T17 mythic gear set right now for scaling sake):



Edit: Just finished and here is the results:

[Enpoli]

I'm kinda excited for Zen Sphere being useful if it stays this close to Chi Wave.

[Deleted]

Is monk gcd still 1?
Would haste allowing gcd to go below 1 second during serenity be a viable change? Calculating haste from a 1.5 base.

Yes (WW) and depends. If you want to buff serenity and its interaction with other haste buffs / haste from gear, it would be a possibility. Though it would be weird that you need a certain haste-level (which is quite high, especially in the first tier of the expansion) for this to even take effect when calculating from the 1.5 base.

Yeah basically any fight with more than one target (or even a single target that drops down multiple times and is "healed" back up) makes ToD non-glyphed amazing. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets nerfed though, it's so strong now.

Yes, it is really strong and a viable target for the nerfbat. But is it really stronger than other classes' damage-cds on a comparable timer, considering:
- the ability is situational (on some bosses you might only be able to use it once, on others multiple times),
- it has a resource cost,
- the fact that it will get comparably weaker, the more gear you get (damage is usually increased more than HP)?
So while it is definitely a candidate for a nerf, I wouldn't be surprised if the ability goes life as it is, either.

[Saltycracker]

One thing to keep in mind is that Serenity is a difficult to use talent and may not be best for every fight. You need to guarantee that you will be in range of a boss for the entire 10 second duration and be able to use it on CD for it's full effect; this is not ideal in any raiding or progression setting.

My 2 cents, but for this reason as well as plenty of opportunities to cleave Chi Explosion is still the most versatile talent in that tier imho.

[odoylerules]

Wow so Serenity and Ascension are on top??? Who'da thunk it?

I guess it has more to do with the CE and CB nerfs than anything else, but I guess the big takeaway is that there are several options that are extremely viable.

Now the only question is where we wind up against other classes post-nerf?

[TheLOOGE]

Yes, it is really strong and a viable target for the nerfbat. But is it really stronger than other classes' damage-cds on a comparable timer, considering:
- the ability is situational (on some bosses you might only be able to use it once, on others multiple times),
- it has a resource cost,
- the fact that it will get comparably weaker, the more gear you get (damage is usually increased more than HP)?
So while it is definitely a candidate for a nerf, I wouldn't be surprised if the ability goes life as it is, either.

1) That might be our only defense to keep ToD the way it is once the devs grow privy to this ability's strength.

2) It does -- albeit extremely marginal considering its damage contribution.

3) Just depends on how high they expect hp pools to scale. Remember, it was their stated design intent to double the stamina return on gear for WoD. Meaning, I don't expect HP to "slow down" in terms of growth. Wouldn't surprise me to see 300-400k HP pools by the end of the xpac -- and thus 300-400k ToD hits.

Writing is on the wall boys.... RIP ToD. JK. But they will probably revert the usable under 10% HP buff on PvE mobs and just change it back to the way it works today on live.

[Deleted]

I just assembled a small table to calculate how often ChiEx is useable with some variables, to shed at least a little light in the RJW/ChiEx aoe discussion. I'll upload it later, if someone wants to play around a bit (and probably finds a bug). Though my tables are usually totally chaotic, especially when done only to calculate a small thing. :/

As an example of a possible scenario:
Assuming Ascension, 10% haste, RJW every ~5.6 (with haste plus a little lag), EB on cd and no BL, Jab is useable every ~6.5s. This means, we get approximately ~4.69 Chi / 10 s: from RJW, Jab and ChiEx CB procs.
Most of that Chi goes into other spells: Assuming RSK - 14s, FoF - 26s, TP - 19 s, we spend ~3.02 Chi /10s. I assumed a TB CB proc increases the duration of the buff by 15s.
This leads to only ~1.67 Chi / 10 s for Chi Explosion. It takes about 24 seconds to get a single Chi Explosion with 4 Chi ready, when taking and spamming RJW.

[e] Here it is. Red/blue are formulas, green a variable.

[Hinalover]

Wow so Serenity and Ascension are on top??? Who'da thunk it?

You have to also look at the Chi Brew and Power Strikes. They are so close to one another (within 400dps of each other) you can choose any of them and be fine.

I saw this on the the SimC's IRC channel and this should put in perspective the wait time for melee:



For those looking at the Brewmaster wait time, that should be close to nill if this is ran again due to a change made tonight.