Moonkin patchnotes

[Pennoyer]

The air ele does a 100% sprint which is > 60%. I know this is hard for your little mind to grasp, but the raid will stack up tight for this so everyone can get the best sprint in the game. Our survival is shit now with 0 immunities. It's really good DR spells, but no way of clearing debuffs like cloak and bubble or negating otherwise lethal damage. It's hard to tell, but if history repeats itself the immunities will be superior just because of debuff clearing or they will make the ability do enough damage to kill through 70% DR.

LOL, your trolling is quite amusing, particularly because you have a lot of people here believing your posts are serious. I feel bad for the people who take you seriously (I know you'll now be tempted to throw it my way, but there's no need for that ).

[Aboubacar]

No need to be so insulting there. But anyways, If the range of that 100% speed boost is 6 yards not everyone would even make it to the shaman to get it. Nothing wrong with a 30 yard range speed boost in many situations.

Edit: And I always find it amusing that so many people think the sky is falling and are ready to jump to a new/class spec this early in an alpha version. This is the same thing that happened nearly every expansion as people got to reading notes.

People stacked for rag when stamp roar had no range. It will be a big deal a good strat can be delveloped around it (much like rag). Sorry for being somewhat insulting - but this is in one way better than stamp roar, even with the range weakness.

Anyway, someone said you might have to be in cat/bear to use SI? Any source on this or was that just speculation?

- - - Updated - - -

LOL, your trolling is quite amusing, particularly because you have a lot of people here believing your posts are serious. I feel bad for the people who take you seriously (I know you'll now be tempted to throw it my way, but there's no need for that ).

It's not a troll, I acknowledged that SI and self heals give us a nice toolkit for balance, but the lack of an immunity can be crippling and was in the past. Imagine doing lei shen or ra-den without CoS.

I am not exaggerating a bit when I say that classes have become and are becoming more homogenized with this expansion. The flavor/theme of druid is still there, but the unique toolkit is nearly gone and there's crossover with every other class. It's not a big deal, but just means if there's another situation like warlocks where the class just does 20% more damage than everything else, there will be no reason no to switch - whatever you brough before will be covered.

[lappee]

I'm not saying that good players won't have a raid spot, but like I said I'll stick behind the no unique abilities anymore. Even HoTW tanking if viable can be done for short periods of time by warriors with die by the sword with 0 risk of dying. I'm not very aware of what's going on in your guild in particular, but I'd highly doubt Paragon would continue to bring the 3 balance druids from SoO farm into Mythic 20 mans (not saying they wouldn't necessarily chose these players) because the things balance druid can do are done better by other classes or not unique to the spec anymore. This isn't limited to the storm ele bullshit either.

1) HotW tanking is very, very situational but very powerful when its needed. We even had it in our dark animus tactic back in the day
2) Going from 25 to 20 man, basically going from 18 dps to 13 means that most dps classes will be losing a spot so i wouldnt be surprised about 1 moonkin losing raidspot in paragon

It's not a troll, I acknowledged that SI and self heals give us a nice toolkit for balance, but the lack of an immunity can be crippling and was in the past. Imagine doing lei shen or ra-den without CoS.

Been there done that, immunities are sick but nowhere near necessary. Also taking away immunities is better for the game, in pve and pvp


I'm not going to talk about anything else right now as i havent had the time to read the stuff but from reading couple pages, i'm not afraid of losing a moonkin raid spot because "our utility isnt as unique as it used to be"

[Cyous]

Actually, yes, it is. There is no other ability that will autonomously pull you back when you attempt to run out. Gorefiend's is completely different.

Besides, it's not whether any one ability is unique, but whether the specific combination is. A class is a collection of abilities. What other class has Typhoon, Vortex, Solar Beam, Stampeding Roar, BR, is about average for any DD purpose and uses Leather?

Gorefiend's is a positioning advantage. Vortex keeps them there. I'm not arguing if Vortex is unique nor comparable to GG. They are different. GG makes Vortex far stronger. That's that. It's not unique to Balance druids--since it's a talent. You could make the Resto druid do it, or the Guardian, or the Feral. So why bring a Moonkin? Solar Beam? That's fine. It's not frequently used, but it's definitely strong when utilized.

Again. I think no one will lose their raid spot. But justifying 2 moonkins in a group of 20 isnt likely. Then again, only pure classes will see "repeat specs." A couple mages and warlocks at most. A couple/few druids. Nearly half of the specs will be absent.

[Alzu]

things about shaman sprint and uniqueness

The shamans' AoE speed boost requires not one, but two talents, is on a 5 minute cooldown and has a miniscule range. Also the fact how WoW clients interact (or something) other players and NPCs aren't exactly where they seem while moving making it even harder to stand within that 6 yards. Besides, the 100% isn't in the end that much better than 60%.

I'd like you to also think about actually unique abilities in the game right now. Almost everyone are having their unique stuff being given to other specs and they will have to deal with it as well. More raid buffs, same utility spells etc. But it also has a lot to do with how you define unique. Typhoon as an example isn't unique in the sense that it's the only knockback skill. But however it is the only long-range knockback easily available.

Also you sound that you're still worrying about your raid spot. Just realise that loot is a major factor in it and people don't just bring only warlocks in the raid because of this. Moonkins still have those unique utilities (AoE sprint with a large range, a long-range knockback, high off-heals) and our survivability most definitely doesn't depend on getting Cloak of Shadows or not. It has never been required anywhere. Made things easier? Yes. Required? No. If you actually find Barkskin, SI, NS, Might of Ursoc and possible Renewal not enough for your survival in every scenario, there is something not right.

[Aboubacar]

Also you sound that you're still worrying about your raid spot. Just realise that loot is a major factor in it and people don't just bring only warlocks in the raid because of this. Moonkins still have those unique utilities (AoE sprint with a large range, a long-range knockback, high off-heals) and our survivability most definitely doesn't depend on getting Cloak of Shadows or not. It has never been required anywhere. Made things easier? Yes. Required? No. If you actually find Barkskin, SI, NS, Might of Ursoc and possible Renewal not enough for your survival in every scenario, there is something not right.

Personally not worried about my own raid spot, as I'm not in a guild full of equally skilled individuals. The 5minute cd will probably stay but I wouldn't be surprised if the range of that spell isn't buffed after shamans' complain that it isn't practical and turns out to be difficult for multiple people to get the buff.

You bring up a good point I glanced over and forgot. Ysera's will be pretty awful with the smart heal removed and everyone sitting below max hp for most encounters. Cenarion ward and renewal will be much stronger, but hopefully they take ward off gcd or something, probably not. Anyway, hopefully we can get back on topic of moonkin changes soon.

[Glurp]

People complaining about losing raid utility are you actually serious? Boomkins have been complaining for ages that they only hold their raid spot due to utility. Now we are getting significant mechanical changes to our AoE and losing some utility, isn't that what we all wanted?

[Alzu]

Cenarion ward and renewal will be much stronger, but hopefully they take ward off gcd or something, probably not.

This would be lovely. It'd instantly be my favourite talent.

People complaining about losing raid utility are you actually serious? Boomkins have been complaining for ages that they only hold their raid spot due to utility. Now we are getting significant mechanical changes to our AoE and losing some utility, isn't that what we all wanted?

I've always thought that Moonkins bring good DPS with the high utility. Not over the top DPS like warlock, but good.

[Lilija]

Edit: And I always find it amusing that so many people think the sky is falling and are ready to jump to a new/class spec this early in an alpha version. This is the same thing that happened nearly every expansion as people got to reading notes.

Yup. No need to panic. Sure, we should raise our concerns about current idea's drafts (because that's what they are atm) but for sure not panic.

[huth]

You bring up a good point I glanced over and forgot. Ysera's will be pretty awful with the smart heal removed and everyone sitting below max hp for most encounters. Cenarion ward and renewal will be much stronger, but hopefully they take ward off gcd or something, probably not. Anyway, hopefully we can get back on topic of moonkin changes soon.

Ysera's is far more beneficial when you are regularly below max health but not in danger of dying. These changes are improving it, not making it worse.

[Pippilongear]

When Celestalon started talking about Moonkin in the FBtv after show...
- "Watering" will usually result in wasted efforts due to mushroom repositioning. (not an issue if the mushroom buff is on the druid instead of the mushroom)

I finally listened to the Final Boss TV aftershow on youtube and Celestalon was very vague about what "watering" your mushroom means exactly. He did say that you would need to "charge up" your mushrooms but how that is going to be done (via some hurricane/storm mechanic?) was not explained exactly.

To me the more important part of his little summary of moonkin was as follows:
Moonkin AoE needs help - moonkins need to be able to keep up NG and eclipse while aoe'ing (hence the perk that allows hurricane/storm to generate eclipse energy to keep moonkin cycling eclipses while aoeing). Also, moonkin need some "burst aoe" and he feels that mushrooms could fill that role.

Frankly I agree 100% with his assessment about moonkin aoe weaknesses, and I'm looking forward to beta to see how those changes will feel.

On a side note, the other things he brought up in the after show for moonkin were:
a) They like the moonkin eclipse mechanic and think it works well (so for those that were hoping that the lvl 100 talent Equinox will be made baseline, looks like you are SoL)
b) They want to buff moonkin single target dps (he alluded to something besides just a straight damage buff so not sure what that means)

[Deleted]

Even if the mushroom buff is on the druid, what is he expecting?

Adds run out, druid hurricanes to get full mushroom stacks, uses 3 globals to place mushrooms? That's still way worse than what current classes do unless the mushrooms do megadamages.

[Pippilongear]

Adds run out, druid hurricanes to get full mushroom stacks, uses 3 globals to place mushrooms? That's still way worse than what current classes do unless the mushrooms do megadamages.

My hope is that they scrap the "hurricaning to charge the shrooms" mechanic and find some other way to charge them (everytime you cycle eclipse or gain eclipse energy or some portion of MF/SF dmg). Do that plus change them to be clones of the resto version (1 shroom that is moveable with a CD and saves its charge) and you wouldn't have to make the dmg OP, just make it decent and it would give us enough flexibility to be able to get a bit more burst aoe with foresight

[Aboubacar]

I finally listened to the Final Boss TV aftershow on youtube and Celestalon was very vague about what "watering" your mushroom means exactly. He did say that you would need to "charge up" your mushrooms but how that is going to be done (via some hurricane/storm mechanic?) was not explained exactly.

To me the more important part of his little summary of moonkin was as follows:
Moonkin AoE needs help - moonkins need to be able to keep up NG and eclipse while aoe'ing (hence the perk that allows hurricane/storm to generate eclipse energy to keep moonkin cycling eclipses while aoeing). Also, moonkin need some "burst aoe" and he feels that mushrooms could fill that role.

Frankly I agree 100% with his assessment about moonkin aoe weaknesses, and I'm looking forward to beta to see how those changes will feel.

On a side note, the other things he brought up in the after show for moonkin were:
a) They like the moonkin eclipse mechanic and think it works well (so for those that were hoping that the lvl 100 talent Equinox will be made baseline, looks like you are SoL)
b) They want to buff moonkin single target dps (he alluded to something besides just a straight damage buff so not sure what that means)

The way the charging/watering works is a leveling perk, which is listed next to the talent calculator on wowhead. Enhanced Mushrooms: Each time your hurricane or astral storm deal damage, your wild mushrooms will grow, dealing 5% additional damage, up to 300%. Charging is fine to me, I just hope its one mushroom.

Equinox baseline would be bad and slow down the rotation (outside of sustained aoe) because everyone keeps forgetting what Euphoria is. On the Final Boss show you watched he said that they think moonkin is in a good place for it's rotation and they want to maintain the the kind of feel or speed (I forgot the exact wording) that exists now with the leveling perks and tier 90s. Insect swarm will speed up the rotation a lot at lower gear levels.

The problem is no crit, no ss procs, and no dot extensions. Fire mages got 10% baseline crit and while they are a little more reliant on crit rating that balance, I don't see insect swarm being enough to maintain a similar rotation to the one in ToT/SoO. While they are trying to cut down on instants, you need the SS procs to cycle quickly and maintain nature's grace, just like fire needs hotstreak/pyro instants.

[Mahone]

The only real use of Equinox is for Hurricane/Astral storm spam.

I can't really understand how could you say that. I think you forgot about your mastery which grants you bonus damage while you are in eclipse. Let me give you an example.

Imagine that you hit:

Starfire: 100k without mastery, 194k with eclipse mastery (since you have %94 mastery based on your current armory)
Wrath: 50k without mastery, 97k with eclipse mastery

*Base numbers are not scaled for the sake of simplicity.
.......................................................................................... ............................................
Now imagine that you dont have equinox talent and you have 100 solar power. Lets see your rotation until you reach 100 solar power again.

Eclipsed Wrath(97k)>Eclipsed Wrath(97k)>Eclipsed Wrath(97k)>Eclipsed Wrath(97k)>Wrath(50k)>Wrath(50k)>Wrath(50k) !Now you reached 100 Lunar!
Eclipsed Starfire(194k)>Eclipsed Starfire(194k)>Eclipsed Starfire(194k)>Starfire(100k)>Starfire(100k) Now reached 100 solar again.

Total damage 1.32M
.......................................................................................... ............................................
Now imagine that you have equinox talent and do the same rotation.

Eclipsed Wrath(97k)>Eclipsed Wrath(97k)>Eclipsed Wrath(97k)>Eclipsed Wrath(97k)>Eclipsed Wrath(97k)>Eclipsed Wrath(97k)>Eclipsed Wrath(97k)
Eclipsed Starfire(194k)>Eclipsed Starfire(194k)>Eclipsed Starfire(194k)>Eclipsed Starfire(194k)>Eclipsed Starfire(194k)

Total damage 1.649M
.......................................................................................... ............................................
(1.649-1.32)*100/1.32=24.9% overall damage increase based on your current state. If we include SS and DoTs, that 25% will slightly change based on SS procs.

So, how can you say that real use of Equinox is just for storm spam? Am I missing something? Correct me if I did miscalculation or my logic behind this calculation is wrong. Enlighten me please, I'm not as pro raider as you are afterall. If the other 2 talents can compansate this overall damage increase, then ok, Equinox shouldn't be taken but I think they won't. I think Equinox talent is too good to be true.

[Aboubacar]

Idk what is so hard to comprehend:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=81062/euphoria
^Does not function with Equinox

Almost everything in Mahone's post is incorrect. A single target rotation w/ equinox vs the other 2 talents will have fewer casts in the same timespan because of Nature's grace(http://www.wowhead.com/spell=16886) uptime being lower. Insect swarm damage is also not included or extra Sunfall damage (both talents would be higher single target dps). You will also never refresh moonfire or sunfire outside of an eclipse.

Equinox allows you to spam hurricane/astral storm which now generate 10 energy per second without ever being uneclipsed and maintain high Nature's grace uptime. It would only be good if you spammed these spells for the entire fight.

Starsurge now generates 10 more energy than live (before equinox), another thing you didn't take into account.
-His eclipse buff is not 97%. It's nearly impossible to get that high with DoC and 3k mastery raid buff. You checked his armory in feral spec and gear as well so not sure what you're thinking. The numbers, the logic, everything is off.

[Cyous]

-snip-

you're not factoring in the total time of execution.

100 damage in 20sec = 5.0 dps;
85 damage in 15sec = 5.6 dps

[Alzu]

I don't even find Equinox too great. It slows down the cycle time thus lowering Nature's Grace uptime for a ~30% increase in eclipse uptime in total (usually 35% solar and lunar eclipse uptimes in a fight). I don't think that sacrificing the NG uptime is worth it, especially when the other talents just sound much better. Starfall/Sunfall are getting 30 stars for 3 targets making the Sunfall talent very potent and Insect Swarm might be amazing if you can dot a couple of targets with it and just breeze through an eclipse.

[MrShaft]

We have to remember that this is just alpha notes. Our stat weights and strengths are going to affect Equinox immensely and we have no clue what those will be like. Mastery could become strongest and make Equinox very nice because of constantly buffed eclipses. Haste and how much we'll need in order to cycle properly and efficiently is completely unknown. So you can't say for certain that Equinox will be terrible because you'll lose NG up time. Maybe we'll be able to get enough haste that with NG you'll still get from lunar to solar quick enough and losing Euphoria wont even matter. Or Crit for that matter, the extra energy from starsurge is going to help cycle as well so that could lead to fast enough eclipse cycles to make Equinox completely fine for single target. I just find it completely impossible to say that Equinox is only good if you can spam Hurricane/Astral Storm the entire fight.

Aoeing without Equinox I dont feel will be a problem either. Most fights in SoO where I've had to Hurricane/AS it's almost never been for the full duration of the spell, usually only about half the channel time. So why not just Hurricane then before you leave solar, blow your shrooms and go on single target casting to lunar. "I wont always be in lunar though" Well, if you really care about it, you'd plan, prepare and watch your timers to make sure you were for when the adds come. That's exactly what the good boomkins who rank on the aoe fights do, always Hurricane, never Astral Storm.

[Pippilongear]

That's exactly what the good boomkins

........

who rank on the aoe fights

GOOD boomkins do try to nuke the adds as quickly as possible on progression, while doing a ton of other things - ranking on AoE fights, however, is not one of the priorities. You are overestimating how much planning you can reasonably do while random events are occurring (ie: tank derps and is out of position, someone needs a brez while you are trying to set up your aoe, etc...). I'm all for a reasonable skill cap of preparation-to-damage conversion but the idea of "watching your timers" to make sure you are in solar eclipse to AoE is mostly absurd - if it happens to line up, great, else just keep trucking with astral storm. No "good" boomkin is going to hold off on eclipse cycling for any reasonable amount of time just to aoe in solar - eclipse cycling is just too powerful (and will continue to be that way in WoD, based on Celestalon's comments).