1. #2261
    Sorry been busy the last week or 2, any rotational changes I need to put into simcraft?

  2. #2262
    Quote Originally Posted by Arberian View Post
    No, 1/2 of Starfire's damage.
    As you can see I divided them by their cast times.

  3. #2263
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darlissa View Post
    Fixt.

    So if my math is right, the direct dmg of moonfire with lunar peak buff is equal to the dmg of unempwered starfires?

    45*2/1.5 = 60 vs 180/3 = 60

    Mastery affects both so didn't include that. In practice I seem to get more dmg out of unempowered starfires though, don't know why.
    The math is correct, however your "fix" isnt.

    Unless you think that near 10% of your damage is shit, then you might aswell say that all of your spells are shit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    Sorry been busy the last week or 2, any rotational changes I need to put into simcraft?
    Dont think there was anything really, perhaps we'd gain more dps by forcing Stellar Flare use at the center now that its damage was nerfed.
    Also treants shouldnt be the best pick of talents, either Inc or SotF (inc has really poor priorities in the list)

  4. #2264
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Starfire having 3sec base cast is fine, nothing wrong with it. Moonfire spam on single target is never better than hard casting Starfires (assuming target doesnt die during the starfire cast) and spamming Moonfire to multiple targets (having one up in every target) is always better than hardcasting Starfire to one (assuming targets wont die in a few seconds).
    You're right and in this case i made the classic error of writing something with no fact to back it up so forget the moonfire spam. I think the problem is that a 3 second starfire right now feels so slow when compared with the current output on live. That might be a bit of spoilt child syndrome with current levels of haste but really i was comparing a main rotational spell with similar ability for other ranged spell classes and i couldn't see why starfire in particular was 3 seconds compared to say a fireball from a mage especially when you factor in the eclipse bar. I'm thinking of instances where:

    You're eclipse bar is heading back to centre from lunar and you are required to move.
    Right now movement is compensated usually with a starsurge proc. You won't ideally be doing that in WoD as at this time of eclipse you'd waste the lunar empowerment as you would never cast the two 3 second starfires in that time before eclipse reaches the middle.

    Sure, if you have 2 starsurge procs this may be viable to do but the point i'm really making is that at 3 seconds it's really rather limiting at certain times in conjunction with a constantly moving eclipse bar.

    So you have moved and you have 2.5 second left before you hit the middle, do you cast a sub optimal starfire, or do you cast a wrath that will hit too early again sub optimal, or do you refresh your moonfire (not needed), pop starfall? Stella flare can address this to a point in this situation and ultimately i guess you say that you had to move and therefore expect the nerf in dps. However, you have been penalsed first for moving, and secondly for your eclpise bar moving out of your control.

    Compare that to a mage for example who has to move but then once finished moving simply picks up where he left off and casts a fireball.

    That is the point i am trying to make.

    I love the eclipse idea with moonkin i think the idea of the class taking power from the sun and moon is totally key to moonkin. However, i don't think this latest implementation of an eclipse system resolves any of the problems from before and creates some new ones.

    I have no problem with the solar side of rotation, it's faster allowing you to make decisions more on the fly without compromising your dps.


    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Movement punishing our dps is how it should be. I dont know what you want from this game, but if you just want to cast everything while moving then go play some game like Wildstar, it seems to be a better fit for you.
    Yes, I agree, it's not the punishment I have a problem with it's the level of punishment in relation to other classes and moonkin has notoriously suffered heavily in movement fights in the past which is why this concerns me in the first place. Again, this has been masked mainly by the sheer exuberant amount of starsurge procs we get currently that make movement punishment minimal. This will not be an option in WoD, nor would I wish it to be as it's not a particularly interesting play style. No interest in space wow or hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Euphoria is supposed to be a dps talent that neither adds or removes a spell, but changes the priority system feeling (rather than the system itself)
    Probably why I favour this right now

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Stellar Flare adds extreme benefit to multidot, its cast time is the same as our gcd - effectively having the same cast time as Moonfire or
    Sunfire. Its damage difference between 0 point and peak eclipses is minimal, meaning it deals near maximun damage all the time its on.
    Its damage nerf was justified and made it to be onpar with BoP on single target. Its superior on multitarget by far which seemed like their initial intention.
    Makes sense and I hadn't factored in the GCD

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Resto Druids and Holy Priests are currently strong because hots are way too strong.
    Ye, this is what I mean by instant cast spells, but this is off topic and more about the way damage is sustained and hots being superior for triage.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    You say you're not fine with unbalance brought into classes by movement dps, yet you've played this game this far.
    I suggest you pick a melee class, then you can just go and whack all the time even while moving - or just reroll the game.
    It's fine i just want it to be more in line, and looking at the state of warlocks on live right now for example, it's that kind of absurd disparity between same DPS specialisation classes that I really don't want to see creep into WoD. I like ranged classes because movement does bring some level of thought process into the mix when dealing damage/healing.
    Last edited by QuadEarz; 2014-08-25 at 09:42 AM.

  5. #2265
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    @QuadEarz, You're thinking of instances where we're going from peak eclipse to middle while we're on the move and thinking we're losing more dps than other classes because of that. Well now take an instance where you're going from middle to peak, effectively losing less dps than other classes.

    The eclipse system has pro's and con's, the ultimate pro is class disparity.

    The decision between sub optimal starfire and sub optimal wrath (reall, sub optimal? they're nearly always sub optimal since they're only optimal at peak times, which is ~1/10th of the time) can be decided by the fact of which of the spells is better at that point. Its rather easy to do via addon or you can just decide yourself, the damage difference is minimal anyway (as long as you more or less know how the spells and eclipse works)

    About the state of warlocks, they're currently so op because of all the gear, trinkets, cheesing mechanics and fast kill times. They were one of the best classes in progress sure, but nowhere as op as they're currently.

    If you're such a fan of ranged movement dps bringing level of thought in the process, why are you trying to get it removed?

    On the other note, Blizzard is reducing one the move dps from every class - not just moonkins.

  6. #2266
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    On the other note, Blizzard is reducing one the move dps from every class - not just moonkins.
    Hunters disagree with you.

    About BoP. I am fine with BoP.

    On bosses like Oregorger BoP 2+ min dots work fine becouse they ticking while boss rolling around.

    But what to do on moving? Cast MF and replace 2+ min MF with 40/20s is not look good.

  7. #2267
    Quote Originally Posted by Owlkin View Post
    Hunters disagree with you.
    Hunters lose patchwerk DPS for their mobility.

  8. #2268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owlkin View Post
    Hunters disagree with you.

    About BoP. I am fine with BoP.

    On bosses like Oregorger BoP 2+ min dots work fine becouse they ticking while boss rolling around.

    But what to do on moving? Cast MF and replace 2+ min MF with 40/20s is not look good.
    It wil not refresh your dot. You will never refresh a dot with a duration longer than the one that's applied already. (And also not extend one last time I tested. So when you refresh a 30 sec moonfire you get a ~54sec moonfire, while if you refresh a 43 sec moonfire it stays a 43 sec moonfire :/)

  9. #2269
    Quote Originally Posted by Miraclous View Post
    It wil not refresh your dot.
    That's his point. Moving decreases the value of BoP

    Quote Originally Posted by Miraclous View Post
    You will never refresh a dot with a duration longer than the one that's applied already. (And also not extend one last time I tested. So when you refresh a 30 sec moonfire you get a ~54sec moonfire, while if you refresh a 43 sec moonfire it stays a 43 sec moonfire :/)
    You should get a 52s Moonfire (130% of 40s). You should always get a min(52, remaining duration +40) s Moonfire, everything else is a bug.

  10. #2270
    Quote Originally Posted by Ereshmilor View Post
    You should always get a min(52, remaining duration +40) s Moonfire, everything else is a bug.
    If you refresh Moonfire at 45 seconds, you don't gain 52, you remain at 45. This seems to be a bug if you compare this to the Pandemic behavior on live.

    Question: when going towards lunar/solar eclipse and already in that half, when do you hit the Starsurge button, if you have less than 3 SS stacks and no empowerment?

  11. #2271
    Quote Originally Posted by darlissa View Post
    Question: when going towards lunar/solar eclipse and already in that half, when do you hit the Starsurge button, if you have less than 3 SS stacks and no empowerment?
    Solar: Hitting 100 Energy, no matter how much haste you have.
    Lunar: With 37% Haste you get the 3 spells within the Peak timeframe. With 0% haste, most damage when you cast SS on 95 energy.

    But +/- 1s is still 99%, so like StFl, it doesn't really matter.

  12. #2272
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darlissa View Post
    Question: when going towards lunar/solar eclipse and already in that half, when do you hit the Starsurge button, if you have less than 3 SS stacks and no empowerment?
    You should try to keep yourself at below 2 stacks most of the time (aka ~all the time in normal rotation, only known burst phases should you save Starsurges).
    With 1 stack, just cast it so that you get out all empowerment spells at ~peak times

  13. #2273
    "Hunters have a ton of talents which grant rotational or short CD abilities, to support this design. However, they were lacking in rotational depth."

    Any1 mind tweet about moonkins rotation? and how much "depth" there is. esp with BOP as a talent 3-buttons-rotation. we are the new arcane mages wooo

  14. #2274
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by omri1212000 View Post
    "Hunters have a ton of talents which grant rotational or short CD abilities, to support this design. However, they were lacking in rotational depth."

    Any1 mind tweet about moonkins rotation? and how much "depth" there is. esp with BOP as a talent 3-buttons-rotation. we are the new arcane mages wooo
    Theres no rotational depth in single target, its not just BoP problem. Its the whole design behind eclipse. As long as the system is "Lunar, press starfire. Solar, press Wrath" its never going to change.

  15. #2275
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Theres no rotational depth in single target, its not just BoP problem. Its the whole design behind eclipse. As long as the system is "Lunar, press starfire. Solar, press Wrath" its never going to change.
    Which makes it even worse.
    I understand the removal of snapshotting from all classes, as they made dots\bleeds quite OP.
    However, making the game plays for us, and we just follow and execute the Spell, its quite dumb. we should have a saying when to enter or leave an eclipse.
    But for some reason, it seems like they have forgotten about us- Does that mean they are happy with our lvl 100 talents and our rotation in general?

  16. #2276
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by omri1212000 View Post
    Which makes it even worse.
    I understand the removal of snapshotting from all classes, as they made dots\bleeds quite OP.
    However, making the game plays for us, and we just follow and execute the Spell, its quite dumb. we should have a saying when to enter or leave an eclipse.
    But for some reason, it seems like they have forgotten about us- Does that mean they are happy with our lvl 100 talents and our rotation in general?
    With the current eclipse system, the rotation is quite fine with all of the talents (obviously euphoria is just theoretical).

    Theres 2 ways to make rotations into proper priority systems.
    1) Add procs, the more the merrier.
    2) Have alot of spells with different timers.

    The problem with #1 is that procs are hard to make scaleable (problems with moonkins on live). With #2 people tend to feel "overwhelmed" with all the buttons.
    Now the moonkin system on beta has 1 proc (Shooting Stars) with talents that add/remove spell or fasten the eclipse cycle. Sure there could be a spell that has X CD and should be used more or less whenever its up, but would that really make any difference? just filling up action bars.

    But dont worry people, other classes have the same problems. Rotations feeling "too easy", its just quite impossible to make a system that is easy to learn but hard to use.

    Lets fill up all classes with This and everybody is happy
    Last edited by lappee; 2014-08-26 at 08:16 AM.

  17. #2277
    When you talk about the difficulty I compare my TMB settings on live and beta

    Live
    1. SS procs
    2. Trinkets

    Beta.
    1. SS charges
    2. Solar Empowerment charges
    3. Lunar Empowerment charges
    4. Solar Peak buff timer
    5. Lunar Peak buff timer
    6. Empowerment moonkin proc timer
    7. Starfall timer
    8. Trinkets

    So a number of things for which is necessary to look increased significantly. But their impact on our DPS is not as strong as on live.

    Еhis is clearly consistent with moto "Easy to Learn, Difficult to Master".

  18. #2278
    Quote Originally Posted by Owlkin View Post
    When you talk about the difficulty I compare my TMB settings on live and beta

    Live
    1. SS procs
    2. Trinkets
    I'd like to see your parses then if that's what you consider to be the defining skill cap of Boomkin.

  19. #2279
    After playing moonkin on beta, I feel as they are too dumbed down compared to how it is now. I will not be playing boomkin come wod, imo they should have just kept it the way it is right now. some of the changes they are doing to every class is okay but majority of them is flat out wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    I'd like to see your parses then if that's what you consider to be the defining skill cap of Boomkin.
    LOL are you trying to call him out or something? don't even get me started with your parses.

  20. #2280
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    I'd like to see your parses then if that's what you consider to be the defining skill cap of Boomkin.
    It is not difficult for me. But when my guildmate asc me to explane how to play "Master" moonkin beta version look much more complicated.

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