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  1. #41
    Epic! fengosa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    Conclusion?
    NOT a single druid will ever choose a talent other than EQUINOX:
    - 100% uptime eclipse benefit the new Hurricane because you can't be moved by it outside eclipse nerfing your own damage
    - SuF/MF passive damage increase doesn't benefit the talent Insect Swarm
    - Incarnation 100% uptime with the talent
    - Choosing another talent means that while not in eclipse 2 Starsurge (50 energy each) brings you into eclipse giving you no time to cast Insect Swarm, or wasting SS procs to cast it.
    Depending on how the enhanced starfall/sunfall works that might be the best choice for 5+ targets. Insect swarm could work well on encounters with 3-4 adds where you can constantly multi dot without having to worry about NG running out because you'll get the solar/lunar power from IS. Equinox looks like a decent option for ST or cleave situations because you can dot before heading into your next eclipse and haste is no longer snapshot so it will benefit from NG when it procs and which point you can then cast your eclipsed dots.

    Obviously we'll know a lot more once we can math each one out but looking at it there's definitely potential for all talents depending on what situation you have.

  2. #42
    Wouldn't it be a better design for IS to only generate Eclipse Energy while you are not in an Eclipse?
    If it works that way as it's description says, all it does is to raise NG uptime a bit. But it seems far too uncontrollable to seriously be an option.

    Edit: nvm, only took single target into account.

  3. #43
    Figured the talent shown at Blizzcon to keep you in eclipse til you reach the other side wouldn't make it. Didn't expect it to go poof before beta though. That's been my biggest gripe about balance since they came up with it for Wrath. It appears Blizz still has a major hardon for keeping boomers gimmicky and unpredictable DPS wise.

    Guess they figured it would be the only talent boomers took since everyone hates the up and down nature of eclipse. Oh well, time will tell but bringing back abilities that they said no one liked or needed (pulverize, IS) and removing our one MOP ability doesn't make me want to come back to the game....like at all.

    PS. I know this is the moonkin thread but enrage and swipe (bear) removed? /sigh
    Quote Originally Posted by Lansworthy
    Deathwing will come and go RAWR RAWR IM A DWAGON
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyCasual View Post
    There's no point in saying this, even if you slap them upside down and inside out with the truth, the tin foil hat brigade will continue to believe the opposite.

  4. #44
    Should make a glyph of armored/sprouting/somethingwittyhere mushrooms. Instead of placing the mushrooms on the ground, you choose a target to apply your mushrooms on, think of it like its growing a giant fungus. Glyph of the fungal mushroom! That way, you can place it either on the tank or on the boss, do your dots and channel your hurricane, and boom! No placement worries. Might remove the snare though as a counter for the 100% guaranteed burst?
    "Why of course the people don't want war…. But, after all… it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

  5. #45
    Suddenly I don't feel like playing my Boomkin anymore, I don't really like the changes at all. I hate doing AoE packs at the moment. I can't imagine what it will be like in the future. I think that I am going to switch specs to see if something else might be fun. If not, then I think it's time to shelve my druid for a while.

  6. #46
    I am Murloc! Wrathonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerus View Post
    Figured the talent shown at Blizzcon to keep you in eclipse til you reach the other side wouldn't make it. Didn't expect it to go poof before beta though. That's been my biggest gripe about balance since they came up with it for Wrath. It appears Blizz still has a major hardon for keeping boomers gimmicky and unpredictable DPS wise.

    Guess they figured it would be the only talent boomers took since everyone hates the up and down nature of eclipse. Oh well, time will tell but bringing back abilities that they said no one liked or needed (pulverize, IS) and removing our one MOP ability doesn't make me want to come back to the game....like at all.

    PS. I know this is the moonkin thread but enrage and swipe (bear) removed? /sigh
    Equinox is still there.
    http://www.wowdb.com/talent-calculator-wod#GAAt
    Make sure you choose Balance on the right.

    For bears, thrash has no CD now, not sure about enrage. But there are a lot more ways to get rage now, so maybe there won't be a need?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrbleedinggums View Post
    Should make a glyph of armored/sprouting/somethingwittyhere mushrooms. Instead of placing the mushrooms on the ground, you choose a target to apply your mushrooms on, think of it like its growing a giant fungus. Glyph of the fungal mushroom! That way, you can place it either on the tank or on the boss, do your dots and channel your hurricane, and boom! No placement worries. Might remove the snare though as a counter for the 100% guaranteed burst?
    Yeah, placing the 3 shrooms is a nuisance. Especially for the way the aoe will be. Other people will burst down aoe packs and we will either do gimpy damage with no shrooms or get a few ticks with hurricane before everything is dead and the shrooms go unused. Or the tank moves them away from the shrooms....

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    I guess I dont count as a druid then?

    I'm actually "more excited" about the other two talents than equinox. I'll get more into detail etc once im done moving (gf is making mad looks at me while @ pc....)
    What makes you excited about the other 2 options?

    Insect Swarm: 1.5 sec cast time, can be used only while not in eclipse.
    It will be a pain in the ass to use once you get a little more crit rating because starsurge will generate 10 more eclipse power.
    With Starsurge generating 50 eclipse power while not in eclipse it means 2 of them will be enough to enter the next eclipse.
    If you stop to cast Insect Swarm the chances to miss a SS proc are high.
    Being it castable only while not in eclipse means that it wont benefit at all from our Mastery, making it weaker and weaker as we gear up during the expansion compared to Moonfire and Sunfire, it will never benefit from Incarnation too.

    Sunfall: Transform starfall into its solar counterpart. It's nice to have more of that spell especially considering how fast we will rotate eclipses with 50 power Starsurges.... but if there's just one target 20 stars out of 30 will go wasted.

    Equinox: 100% uptime eclipse means that you can use hurricane whenever you want without any backfire, even if it moves the eclipse poewer it will benefit you because you can't be brought out of eclipse unlike without this talent.
    You can cast your dots whenever you want, they always benefit from eclipse.
    All of your spells deals more damage at any time, Incarnation is used to it's fullest without the need to extend eclipse Celestial Alignment, making CA stronger because it can be used every time as if you are solar opening (on live you can do this one time and the have to use it to extend eclipse like it was with lunar opener).

    Seems so much superior to me as a talent....

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    Insect Swarm: 1.5 sec cast time, can be used only while not in eclipse.
    It will be a pain in the ass to use once you get a little more crit rating because starsurge will generate 10 more eclipse power.
    With Starsurge generating 50 eclipse power while not in eclipse it means 2 of them will be enough to enter the next eclipse.
    If you stop to cast Insect Swarm the chances to miss a SS proc are high.
    Being it castable only while not in eclipse means that it wont benefit at all from our Mastery, making it weaker and weaker as we gear up during the expansion compared to Moonfire and Sunfire, it will never benefit from Incarnation too.
    Not benefiting from Mastery is nothing but a random fact, it says nothing as to the power of the talent. You also seem to be under the impression that we're just never going to be out of an Eclipse state for some reason. Considering that the current Eclipse uptime is 75% at the end of an expansion (where crit scaling and Eclipse cycle times are out of control) I'm not sure what you're getting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    Sunfall: Transform starfall into its solar counterpart. It's nice to have more of that spell especially considering how fast we will rotate eclipses with 50 power Starsurges.... but if there's just one target 20 stars out of 30 will go wasted.
    Wasting stars is irrelevant as that's just basic knowledge. You can pretty much guarantee that this will not be a good talent for pure single target because of it. Aside from that it seems pretty solid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    Equinox: 100% uptime eclipse means that you can use hurricane whenever you want without any backfire, even if it moves the eclipse poewer it will benefit you because you can't be brought out of eclipse unlike without this talent.
    You can cast your dots whenever you want, they always benefit from eclipse.
    All of your spells deals more damage at any time, Incarnation is used to it's fullest without the need to extend eclipse Celestial Alignment, making CA stronger because it can be used every time as if you are solar opening (on live you can do this one time and the have to use it to extend eclipse like it was with lunar opener).
    Considering this talent slot for Feral and Boomkin is simply making an active ability passive it's a good indication that this isn't designed to be the be all and end all of the talent choice, and in fact could be a weaker one if you go by that indication. We still have no information (or at least none that I've seen) as to how this will interact with Natures Grace or Euphoria. While the talent does sound somewhat solid based off of the information we have been given so far there are still too many nuances as to how it will work in reality and it certainly isn't at a point where you can simply say "THIS IS THE BEST".


    My expectations: Insect Swarm for single target, Insect Swarm or Sunfall for cleave depending on fight/scaling at the time, Equinox for heavy extended AoE.
    Last edited by Glurp; 2014-04-04 at 10:51 AM.

  9. #49
    IMO these notes don't cover the Moonkin changes, there will be more to come.

    I don't think Equinox is still in, it's the workaround of Eclipse. Everyone will chose this, or Eclipse will be tuned down so it's not relevant anymore or the other Talents will be tuned to be very OP.
    I also think that the SS Proc will have a static chance. If it still works with crit, it will have the scaling problem and will need rework again.
    Also more power generation means NG will be up 100%, so no need for NG anymore.

  10. #50
    Even if they increase the damage of insect swarm to make up for our mastery never benefiting it, how many you think you would be able to cast if 2 spells is all it takes to enter eclipse again?
    Also 100% eclipse with equinox means you can use CA + Incarnation on cooldown instead of using CA to extend Incarnation.

    100% uptime eclipse could mean slower eclipse cycles, but rock solid damage.
    The only valid alternative to this talent to me is Sunfall because hopefully there will always be multiple targets in raid fights and cycling eclipses with 2 spells should make boomkins falling stars machines.

    To make Insect swarm viable with the fast cycling eclipses they should make it deal spellstorm damage and usable while in eclipse.
    Last edited by Meldon; 2014-04-04 at 10:54 AM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    Even if they increase the damage of insect swarm to make up for our mastery never benefiting it, how many you think you would be able to cast if 2 spells is all it takes to enter eclipse again?
    I cast lots of uneclipsed Wraths and Starfires at near BiS gear at the end of an expansion, it really isn't an issue. You're acting like Insect Swarm is something you're going to need to react to and therefore wont have time. It's a DoT with a cast time, if you struggle to use it properly you're probably just bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    instead of using CA to extend Incarnation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    100% uptime eclipse could mean slower eclipse cycles, but rock solid damage.
    The only valid alternative to this talent to me is Sunfall because hopefully there will always be multiple targets in raid fights and cycling eclipses with 2 spells should make boomkins falling stars machines.
    Don't get me wrong, it sounds like a fairly solid talent, but a solid talent does not always mean the best. You'd be stupid to rule out the other choices based on anecdotal information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    To make Insect swarm viable with the fast cycling eclipses they should make it deal spellstorm damage and usable while in eclipse.
    Do you even understand the difference between a balance change and a mechanical change. All the information we have so far are mechanic changes. Why are you suggesting balance changes based off of mechanical information, that's just stupid to do.
    Last edited by Glurp; 2014-04-04 at 11:01 AM.

  12. #52
    The patch notes are largely unfinished (fyi doomsayers). I agree with Glurp, the talents seem to be divided quite roughly into a category of single target, aoe/cleave, and passive. You guys also don't know what kind of damage it will do (probably enough to make uneclipsed time feel less bad). So before going all negative please consider this is alpha.

    In MoP beta there was an ability that when you cast faerie fire, your next 3 nukes were buffed by 30%. Obviously that didn't make it. Try to think how these talents make the balance rotation feel more meaningful or less weak. Insect swarm already seems interesting considering it actually generates some energy.

    Charging shrooms w/ hurricane is pretty epic imo, and pretty sure it's what a lot of people have been asking for. I just hope you can move it around as 1 shroom, basically a damage equivalent to resto.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    I cast lots of uneclipsed Wraths and Starfires at near BiS gear at the end of an expansion, it really isn't an issue. You're acting like Insect Swarm is something you're going to need to react to and therefore wont have time. It's a DoT with a cast time, if you struggle to use it properly you're probably just bad.
    Don't think at what you can do now, think what you will do with the expansion 50 power Starsurge means 2 spells and you are in eclipse. Also, if you can cast a lot of Wraths and Starfires you are either unlucky with RNG or didn't reforge correclty, i get a lot of SS procs and already cycle eclipses very fast without 10 extra power on SS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    at BiS lvl you use CA with Incarnation only during the Solar opener and then back to normal: extending Incarnation with CA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Don't get me wrong, it sounds like a fairly solid talent, but a solid talent does not always mean the best. You'd be stupid to rule out the other choices based on anecdotal information.

    Do you even understand the difference between a balance change and a mechanical change. All the information we have so far are mechanic changes. Why are you suggesting balance changes based off of mechanical information, that's just stupid to do.
    Have you ever seen Blizzard change something after they announce it as alpha / beta / ptr ?
    They change the numbers not the mechanics.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    at BiS lvl you use CA with Incarnation only during the Solar opener and then back to normal: extending Incarnation with CA.
    Poor choice of words you can reap the max eclipse benefit from incarnation with either opener. That opener saves 1 gcd and gives a more powerful sunfire. The duration of incarnation is unchanged. Its always been 30seconds w/ CA to allow full benefit of these 30seconds.

    extend in your sentence implies:
    To cause (something) to be or last longer - online dictionary

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    Have you ever seen Blizzard change something after they announce it as alpha / beta / ptr ?
    They change the numbers not the mechanics.
    Yes, what are you getting at. You're suggest mechanic changes based on numbers you don't actually know.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    Have you ever seen Blizzard change something after they announce it as alpha / beta / ptr ?
    They change the numbers not the mechanics.
    Just the thought of FF rotation in MoP beta makes me cringe. Mechanics change all the time where necessary.

  17. #57
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    What makes you excited about the other 2 options?

    Insect Swarm: 1.5 sec cast time, can be used only while not in eclipse.
    It will be a pain in the ass to use once you get a little more crit rating because starsurge will generate 10 more eclipse power.
    With Starsurge generating 50 eclipse power while not in eclipse it means 2 of them will be enough to enter the next eclipse.
    If you stop to cast Insect Swarm the chances to miss a SS proc are high.
    Being it castable only while not in eclipse means that it wont benefit at all from our Mastery, making it weaker and weaker as we gear up during the expansion compared to Moonfire and Sunfire, it will never benefit from Incarnation too.
    1) it'll be just another cast. the same as missing SS proc due to moonfire/sunfire. nothing major imo and really only applies to last tier content
    2) not being able to benefit from mastery just means it doesnt scale well. So it ~~SHOULD~~ be "op" with low gear levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    Sunfall: Transform starfall into its solar counterpart. It's nice to have more of that spell especially considering how fast we will rotate eclipses with 50 power Starsurges.... but if there's just one target 20 stars out of 30 will go wasted.
    We have no idea how the extra stars from the perk work, but this specific talent could just make it twice as powerful (if it hits 20 our of 30 stars to single target)
    Anyhow its a solid dps increase to 1-3 target fights.


    Quote Originally Posted by Meldon View Post
    Equinox: 100% uptime eclipse means that you can use hurricane whenever you want without any backfire, even if it moves the eclipse poewer it will benefit you because you can't be brought out of eclipse unlike without this talent.
    You can cast your dots whenever you want, they always benefit from eclipse.
    All of your spells deals more damage at any time, Incarnation is used to it's fullest without the need to extend eclipse Celestial Alignment, making CA stronger because it can be used every time as if you are solar opening (on live you can do this one time and the have to use it to extend eclipse like it was with lunar opener).
    1) Hurricane usage in raids is very, very minimal. You'll know exactly when you can/need to use it so i dont see this as a problem.
    2) Only one of the dots benefit from eclipse, doesnt change anything to our rotation really, other than casting two sunfires/moonfires each solar/lunar eclipse (at the start and the end) with low haste levels. With better gear, dots dont get anything from this talent
    3) Only the spells affected by eclipse will deal more damage. Also having 100% eclipse uptime isnt that big of a dps increase without shitloads of mastery.

    So yes, its very good at high gear levels, even tho very boring. but at early game its mostly useless in my eyes

  18. #58
    The Patient Grum88's Avatar
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    They should just add IS into shroom detonate any mob hit gets the dot on them just a straight dot nothing like this new IS.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    We have no idea how the extra stars from the perk work, but this specific talent could just make it twice as powerful (if it hits 20 our of 30 stars to single target)
    Anyhow its a solid dps increase to 1-3 target fights.
    Twitter tweets:

    @Celestalon Why is starfall hitting more targets? stars are capped at 20? why ever use insect swarm? does it a insane amount of dmg?
    Reply Retweet Favorite More Expand
    Celestalon ‏@Celestalon 7h
    @Dmanneck Stars are capped at 30 with that. Insect Swarm accelerates your rotation, and does a lot of damage.


    Sounds like an aoe talent to me (sunfall)

    and starsurge now generates like 50 energy? correct me here if wrong... So I am going to just assume that we will have a rotation single target where you apply the just the eclipse dot and insect swarm out of eclipse? Does this seem possible?
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2014-04-04 at 12:15 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by officerlahey View Post
    Twitter tweets:

    @Celestalon Why is starfall hitting more targets? stars are capped at 20? why ever use insect swarm? does it a insane amount of dmg?
    Reply Retweet Favorite More Expand
    Celestalon ‏@Celestalon 7h
    @Dmanneck Stars are capped at 30 with that. Insect Swarm accelerates your rotation, and does a lot of damage.


    Sounds like an aoe talent to me (sunfall)

    and starsurge now generates like 50 energy? correct me here if wrong... So I am going to just assume that we will have a rotation single target where you apply the just the eclipse dot and insect swarm out of eclipse? Does this seem possible?
    Now that is interesting. But do single targets still have a 10 star cap or will it become 20 to match for the 30 increase?

    The IS play sounds nice. If they don't want us to use it as an out-of-eclipse nuke then they will probably apply a short cd or have Wrath/Starfire deal more damage.

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