If you honestly think that pulling an entire room of mobs (think Scarlet Monastary - the one that starts in graveyard) in a CM is not a problematic thing, I don't know what to say. Starfall is only a 4+ target AOE? That's news to me too.... Here's the realistic situations where pulling out of combat mobs is detrimental (without glyphing guided stars):
a) All challenge modes
b) Timeless isle elite mobs near Ordos
c) SoO raid trash where it exists
If you're gonna say just use Glyph of Guided Stars, well - no glyphs should be mandatory to prevent pulling mobs that aren't even supposed to be in combat with you! Pulling mobs to tank is just as easy with moonfire pull, or Faerie Swarm (unless that's changed). The discuss here is about the unwanted mobs that Starfall will pull if you don't glyph of Guided Stars.
Deliverance mechanics would include stuff like (using live - not Beta as example as I'm not up to date with all changes of all classes/specs):
a) Serpent Spread or Pet cleave for hunters - simple single GCD multi-dot or cleave w/out a specific setup - we need to be in Solar for our dot cleave
b) Fire and Brimstone
c) Various mage bombs
d) Mind Sear as a 'movable' AOE
e) RJW + SEF (WW monks) etc
All of these are much better ways to actually do AOE in a race against time. But since we can't really discuss CMs at all... anything I say is pointless. Just out of genuine curiosity - what can we discuss as per your logic?
Last edited by roxfm; 2014-07-16 at 11:15 AM.
You can use LoS to control Starfall very easily. Unless you expect that there will be instances with warehouse-sized chambers filled with mob packs every 30 yards.
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If you use Guided Stars: You have to use Moonfire to pull
If you use the WoD implementation of Starfall: You pull more but you are free to either Hurricane, Moonfire and/or cc (typhoon, vortex)
I just don't see how MoP starfall is any better, or gives more GCDs than the rest.
It seems pretty clear some people are in favor of Starfall pulling everything and some people are not. I just hope we get both the option to pull everything and to only pull in-combat targets, without the latter being gimped because the glyph for it reduces the maximum potential for Starfall (not saying glyph of guided stars isn't useful in some situations where you only want Starfall to hit a select group of mobs from a larger pool that is in combat).
Also is CA bugged in beta atm? From some early testing (got in yesterday). It seems like CA stops eclipse and gives a 0% modifier on eclipse, instead of giving a 100% modifier and a 20% extra damage increase.
The new ecplise feels clunkier to me, not only because of the low haste values but because it's not as clear on the bar when you actually leave the "eclipse" phases. Especially for new players I think that needs to be a bit more clear cut, its not really indicated anywhere that I can easily see, besides the button glow.
Can't test it right now but does anyone know if you pop CA on the pull @ 0, does that make Flare hit the hardest since its balanced?
The point was, you shouldn't be dismissing arguments out of hand because it's something you didnt think of, or you wouldn't do, or you don't find pratical, or w/e, because it just may be something important to someone else. Argue why you like the new one all you want, or what benefits it has, or what you didn't like about the old way, but don't dismiss someone else's point of view because it doesn't align with your own.
For the record, I like "new" starfall. I forsee it being problematic in CMs, but then again the class was never very good in CMs to begin with (in comparison to other ranged classes).
Starfall can be glyphed to affect only targets with moonfire and sunfire so range is not an issue, bluepost already covered that.
IF the proposed trade off for these changes is that we can no longer just click it in instances and forget about, or that we must glyph it and chain it with well casted Sunfire's thats fine with me, cause i have seen nothing to convince me that the beta Starfall is not Substantially better than whats live. And even with the out of combat mechanic this spell will do SUBSTANTIALLY more dmg in aoe scenario's than it does now.
I can live with the slightly clumsy mechanic cause either way this beta version of the spell does its job(AE dmg) better than live
With just a little luck, we can keep up the barrage for quite a while.
A little math on MF/SuF during movement. We know that a poorly timed MF or SuF can actually cause your total damage to go down, because of sin-wave-snapshot mechanics. I wanted to find out where it hurts, and where it is better than nothing (of course better than nothing might be worse than Rejuv, another movement option).
I used 60% mastery and 15% haste for these calculations. I also assumed that the direct damage has the same strength as a single DoT tick, and that SuF is only ticking on one target.
MF: Assuming you refresh MF every 40s, just as your bar hits 100 lunar (not quite 8s after it was at zero), there is no penalty in throwing another MF while lunar is rising (although just after leaving solar the gain can be very small). While lunar is falling, net damage becomes negative during the last 5s. Right at the end, the lost DoT damage is over three times the damage gained from the direct damage.
SuF: The optimal patchwork SuF rotation (two SuF per cycle) is A SuF just as you reach the Solar half of the bar, and another 14s later (a bit more than 1s after the bar starts moving down from its peak). If you always make those two casts, another SuF cast anywhere in the cycle gives at least some net gain in total SuF damage.
SuF during movement comes out better because:
- MF "patchwerk" ticks are at full strength, and have a long duration. Weakening a strong DoT for a long time is expensive.
- SuF "patchwork" ticks weren't cast at 100% eclipse, and the durations are shorter. Overwriting a shorter, weaker DoT is more tolerable.
Last edited by roxfm; 2014-07-17 at 02:05 AM.
Starsurge won't proc nearly as much with the new system, i actually find i have few SS procs on my full hwf druid on the beta.
I just find it a bit funny everyone is in favor of the new starfall, saying you can glyph guided stars because sunfire cleaves (mobs have to be stacked and you have to be solar eclipse...), there is very little positive to having starfall pull everything and several inconveniences. Just let starfall hit mobs in combat only, make a minor glyph that allows it to hit non-combat mobs too, while having guided stars present, there will be no complaining that way.
My first thoughts about WOD beta:
Firstly there are some amazing spell effects, not only for the players, but it seems NPCs got a big boost this exspansion. Khadgar (the mage) blowing up damsn n shiz with a frost/fire/arcane bomb! Shamans (npcs and mobs alike) ripping rock from the ground to pound you with. The zones ans spells within them are visually pleasing.
@Boomkins I'm running without guided stars atm. I'm a 14/14 HC raider, so would like to say I have pretty good situational awareness, even without a list of in game addons I'm missing. Its incredibly good for tagging mobs whilst leveling, which YOU KNOW on release will be harder than actually killing them. It has that 'here comes the pain' feeling in dungeons too. Honestly, I've not wiped the group once by pulling the world with it. Youre forgetting (in theory) everything behind you is dead, there arn't usually two packs directly infront of each other, and if you only want to hit a certain pack you hug the wall and the pull range is cut in half. I like the starfall changes, and the fact it shares charges with SS will make for good game play.
I'm missing NS HT, but honestly that's about it.
My main concern is leveling SUCKS. It always has as boomkin, 85 to 90 was a pain in the ass, but this is even worse. (Take this with a pinch of salt though, as I'm playing a premade ilv 500 chicken, cant really compare it to my 587 on live, or the fact I'm questing alone and not in a party of 3-5 players like I will be on release).
With that said, as a ilv 500 chicken, I'm pretty much only casting starfires and that's annoying as hell. Even when you run around and think you've managed to stay in combat you 'sunfire' only to find the bar resets and you've just moonfired that 1 mob in the middle of 5 others.
Yeah sure you can AC to solar, but doing that on every pull isn't fun. With our survivabilty somewhat nerfed pulling too much, and then only being able to starfall/moofire blanket before having 3 days of starfire casts can be dangerous. (Again fixed by better geared, ppl with you etc but its a genuine concern while solo questing). The insta SS perk will help alot too.
I managed to lv to 92, and got enhanced boomkin form at 91 and again at 92, so I'm guessing they've not fixed perks yet. It also increases my armour number, but doesn't chance me damage reduction for some reason.
Last night I did a dungeon with stellar flare, and honestly it felt horrible. I found myself on trash against 3-5 mobs, wanting to put SF on all of them, but know they would all be different strengths, I found myself missing moonfire/sunfire casts because of it, tracking if I should use wrath or starfire was a nightmare and overall the only thing that felt usefull was starfall. Looking at logs this morning, flare does hit hard, as does starfall, and sunfire if theyre clustered and you can either get it off at 100% eclipse, or maintain good uptime at either end of the eclipse. But the rotation was an absolute mess.
That's with about 5 hours of 'questing' rotation practice, obviously it will get better, have standard ui, and no weakauras was a massive pain, and once beta allows for addons I'm sure I'll be much more comfortable with it. Obviously dropping flare would make the rotation easier to begin with, but balance of power seems a little meh, and Euphoria feels as though it would only make matters worse (total speculation I have tried neither BOP or Euphoria yet) but will report back once I have.