Moonkin patchnotes

[Deleted]

Spamming stellar flare during CA is better than ss/starfire?

My napkin math with current spell coefficients is that when you reach about 75% mastery, stellar flare's direct damage DPECT becomes higher than wrath's/starfire's DPECT during CA.
Since CA is bugged atm you can't test it though. And ofc this will most likely change when they start balancing the classes.

[timmytompadderham]

I can't believe there's like 17 pages of starfall debate here. But just to make 2 minor points:

#1 - the "variable skill level" you speak of really isn't valid. The level of players on beta vs all those on live is a WORLD of difference. The chances of 4-5 relatively unskilled players coming together on beta, is pretty low all things considered. The chances of it happening on live, are pretty good. I don't think people should be punished by starfall wipes because of this. Yes, all the arguments about "watch your position. Skill cap. blah blah blah." Are valid enough on their own, except that they're not. Decent players are going to learn to deal with it. At the higher end you'll have a handful of people doing slightly more dps. At the lower end (of the high end) you'll have people just not using the spell quite as often. But the difference will be marginal.

At the other end of the spectrum however, you WILL have people wiping left and right because of it. And a lot of them will never "learn to use it better", they're not that type of player. (And half of them will never glyph it because every guide they read says not to). Are you really ok with their day sucking because you REALLY wanted that extra half ounce of supposed "skill" in your spec? (That really should have come from a much better working of the eclipse mechanic, which is what's worth discussing, not one random aoe spell).

#2 unless it's been changed somehow in WoD, nameplates disappear after ~36 yds or so. It's possible to back up until "its no visable", and still pull stuff.

Yes you choose to lengthen it. For your information one of the PuGs I got into wiped on the first boss of Grimrail Depot 5+ times and ignored my tactics for the first boss until the 3rd or 4th wipe. Resto shaman dropping healing rain on himself. Point being, the tank wasn't bending over backwards for me.

I'm done arguing the skillcap nonsense. There's not a ton of different variables that contribute to skill in this game, but positioning is a huge one. Coming out of the final tier of MoP where you could spam starsurge for movement and starfall did all the work for you maybe you have trouble to understand this. Other classes have skillshots. It's by DEFINITION a skillshot. Divine Star, Halo, barrage, glaive toss, and others. Caring about your positioning and minimizing your movement are something people have forgotten about after being babied in the last few tiers of MoP. And newer players will take the glyph It's not a huge loss anyway and if they forget 2 extra mobs pulled will rarely wipe you in a heroic. If you're aggroing the whole dungeon in a CM you need to evaluate whether or not you're ready to do CMs. You literally want the spell to do all the work for you, it would clearly be less skillful. Idk what else to say the dead horse is dead...

- - - Updated - - -

Updated weapon enchants (relevant) from theorycrafting thread:

Mark of the Frostwolf
Grants 500 Multistrike for 6sec.
3.0 RPPM +USP
Effect can stack 2 times.

Mark of the Thunderlord
Grants 500 Critical Strike for 6sec.
2.5 RPPM +USP
While active, critical heals and attacks extend the duration by 2sec, up to 3 times.

Mark of Warsong
Grants 10 stacks of 100 Haste for 20 sec.
1.15 RPPM +USP
You lose 1 stack every 2 sec.


------------

Not sure what USP is. Is it the protection thing when you start combat?

Unlucky streak protection. I love stacking haste atm, idc what's better atm lol.

[lappee]

I can't believe there's like 17 pages of starfall debate here. But just to make 2 minor points:
#1.........
#2........

@ #1 yes, im absolutely ok with their day sucking because they can use their skills. And imagine what, i've yet to see shadow priests whine this much about halo.
@ #2 one can just check the ranges with any of your spells if handling with nameplates isnt viable for some.

[timmytompadderham]

#2 unless it's been changed somehow in WoD, nameplates disappear after ~36 yds or so. It's possible to back up until "its no visable", and still pull stuff.

My point was that just by eyeballing it I had 0 problems in the new 5mans. If you want to be precise you need to be far enough away that moonfire is red and too far away.

[Lilija]

I've just tested Starfall a bit in UBRS and while there are options for LoS you still have to have the tank cooperate with you. Mine didn't and he didn't pull to the back or tanked up the stairs making it impossible for me to max range other packs. So while I have no prob with having to possition myself, I have a problem to always have to explain to people how they should possition mobs in order for me to max out dps.

I expect abilities to challenge the players... not the other people that players plays with. That does not work in far too many WoW situations. While in raids it most likely be a minor issue (unless there is trash like on Megaera which was skipped by many groups) it will be an issue for any moonkin that decides to pug 5mans - that will be Guided Stars mandatory or no Starfall most of the time.

And well, Halo is a talent so for situations where it's too dangerous to use priests can spec into something else that doesn't require predotting in order for it to work and be safe.

I am personally not really so much concerned with CMs cause that would be a premade group that will look for solutions to maximize stuff. I am not even thinking so much about myself as it isn't such a big deal - just something I find tedious not something I can't deal with. In pugs it will be a nightmare. I know most raiders don't care about pugs but Blizzard should. In fact we all should because without successfull pugging there is no way for most new players to start raiding (the drop in recruitment is horrible for so long it should be obvious by now). Besides, I really don't know what was wrong with current Starfall - it reached really reasonable level. If Blizzard wants to increase skillcap of moonkins there are so many other aspects they could adress.

EDIT: I've spoken with few of my WoW friends and we came to conclussion that we yet have to see a tank that pulls trash back in a 5man...

And I so agree with kosars

[kosars]

@ #1 yes, im absolutely ok with their day sucking because they can use their skills. And imagine what, i've yet to see shadow priests whine this much about halo. .

Because they all just spec into divine star.

My point was that just by eyeballing it I had 0 problems in the new 5mans. If you want to be precise you need to be far enough away that moonfire is red and too far away.

And my point was that every SINGLE person in this thread, is approximately 1000% better than the "average player".

And not a SINGLE other ability you mentioned, has anywhere near the range, or potential of this one btw. (And a good number of them have alternatives via talents, etc).

This is the problem with it. The entire argument *for* is "It requires skill, therefor it is good and should not be changed. Bad players should be punished". It is absolutely more than possible for something to reward skill without punishing lack of. THAT is what we should be looking for. Arguing that something is good because if you play poorly then bad things will happen is the wrong way to go about things for oh so many reasons.

Things should be "More good" when you play well. They shouldn't be "less bad". I don't know if it's elitism, selfishness, or just an inability to see the forest for the trees, or what. But no one will ever come across well when they argue that bad play should be punished. It shouldn't, period.

But hey, I guess they can just not use the spell, or guided stars glyph, right? THATS WHY IT EXISTS, RIGHT FOLKS?

So now that we've determined that no one cares about anyone but themselves, let's discuss more important things. Like how boring the eclipse slider is.

Oh. And Lilija explained things in the post above much better than I could, and without the sarcasm or bite.

[Deleted]

Here's a topic: when do you see yourselves using Astral Communion? What about the glyph, is it any useful?

[Juvencus]

Here's a topic: when do you see yourselves using Astral Communion? What about the glyph, is it any useful?

We need to see the fights first. Since eclipse now will always be at a predictable position in every fight, all you need to do is check the fight, see where and when you might need the opposite eclipse and use AC accordingly.

If that change needs to happen while you move, then the glyph comes into play.

[lappee]

I've just tested Starfall a bit in UBRS and while there are options for LoS you still have to have the tank cooperate with you. Mine didn't and he didn't pull to the back or tanked up the stairs making it impossible for me to max range other packs. So while I have no prob with having to possition myself, I have a problem to always have to explain to people how they should possition mobs in order for me to max out dps.

And this is where you should use the glyph then. By using it you'd lose around 5k damage and you'd be care free.

Telling other people what to do for you to do max dps has never ever happened in pugs. This is no exception, you can only maximize your dps for the situation and thats where skill comes in.

I expect abilities to challenge the players... not the other people that players plays with. That does not work in far too many WoW situations. While in raids it most likely be a minor issue (unless there is trash like on Megaera which was skipped by many groups) it will be an issue for any moonkin that decides to pug 5mans - that will be Guided Stars mandatory or no Starfall most of the time.

The ability challenges you in both cases, with and without the glyph. Its just a risk - reward scenario without the glyph.

And well, Halo is a talent so for situations where it's too dangerous to use priests can spec into something else that doesn't require predotting in order for it to work and be safe.

Halo is a talent that you can switch for others than normally do less dps (as far as i know). Starfall is a core spell that can be modified via glyph to do less dps for easier and safe use.

I am personally not really so much concerned with CMs cause that would be a premade group that will look for solutions to maximize stuff. I am not even thinking so much about myself as it isn't such a big deal - just something I find tedious not something I can't deal with. In pugs it will be a nightmare. I know most raiders don't care about pugs but Blizzard should. In fact we all should because without successfull pugging there is no way for most new players to start raiding (the drop in recruitment is horrible for so long it should be obvious by now). Besides, I really don't know what was wrong with current Starfall - it reached really reasonable level. If Blizzard wants to increase skillcap of moonkins there are so many other aspects they could adress.

Blizzard is caring about pugs, thus the glyph for the skill and the very, VERY, easy balance gameplay. The only thing there really is left is movement and positioning, which starfall usage is all about. You're saying Blizzard should care about pugs, I say Blizzard should care about HC players aswell.

Heck, even the new form of starfall is name with casuals in mind. With current starfall they pulled agro from random players and didnt get credit for killing their mobs. With the new one they will pull the mobs and get credit for killing them. (and yes, i know it wasnt the case on dead servers but as the servers are being put together theres lots of other players around you all the time)

Current starfall (on live) is required for single target dps since its free. Its a cleave spell that maximizes its usefullness on 2 targets. New starfall however hits ALL targets, its considered AoE. It shouldnt be just a mindless button to press like you want it to be (atleast to gain full damage from it all the time).

EDIT: I've spoken with few of my WoW friends and we came to conclussion that we yet have to see a tank that pulls trash back in a 5man...

Probably because you're too used to last expansions faceroll heroics. If the heroics are actually "hard" as Blizzard said(?) they will start pulling them back unless theres enough space for everything. As far as i can say, even our premade group did pull packs back because it was "necessary" to do so (packs being close together, patrolls, mobs having some knockback abilities etc)

In MoP there really isnt any instances where you'd need to do so. Therefore theres nothing really limiting from starfall usage either.

I also happen to remember the QQ the first time this kind of starfall was introduced. And pretty much the only QQ was because of Zul'gurub. The instance is pretty much a full open area with trash everywhere that no1 ever pulled because it was unnecessary and there was no glyph to make starfall hit specific targets. That isnt the case anymore

- - - Updated - - -

Here's a topic: when do you see yourselves using Astral Communion? What about the glyph, is it any useful?

Pretty much what Juvencus said, most common thing will be adds on a timer where you want to be in solar for spread sunfire.

[Miraclous]

Sunfire only lasts 24 seconds extending to 31.2 at most, so 1 SuF per cycle is not enough for 100% uptime anyway.

I never meant to only use 1 Sunfire. However you can 'delay' 1 Sunfire by casting 1 at the start of Solar and then instead of a max solar refresh you refresh at the end of solar. Then the next solar eclipse that comes around and the ones after that you refresh at max solar and at the end.

I've been doing exactly the same, and it seems pretty good apart from the cancelaura obviously.

Do you mean it isn't beneficial right now, or it sucks we have to do that because CA is broken?

_____

I also recapped some of my thoughts about the current state of Balance druid on beta. Everything is regarding heroic raiding, since I don't care much for PvP/CM's or anything else.
Let me first make clear that even though I definitely think the MoP model takes more skill than the current WoD model, I actually don't care. The reason is that after playing MoP moonkin for 2 years (with a 7 month break at the start of SoO) I can pretty much dream the moonkin rotation. I want to play something new (I will not reroll) for WoD and I am sad that it seems to be so easy, however I'd still rather have that than keep MoP's mechanics for another expansion.
Also I will oversimplify a few things in the next few paragraphs.

Singletarget:
MoP singletarget is pretty straightforward, with keep 2 DoTs up and have fast reflexes for those SS procs. Sure sometimes it's better to clip a DoT a bit and to sometimes let it run out for a couple of seconds and even to sometimes delay a SS usage by a Wrath, but apart from that there's not much to differentiate with.
In WoD singletarget gives you 2 static points to refresh your DoTs and it is important to hit those, because losing the window is a definite dps loss, though it isn't hard to just do it properly. The only real defining factor in dps will be SS usage and even that wont take too long to figure out (if we haven't already). But really the only real difference in the end to me between WoD and MoP singletarget is that in MoP you had to reflex every SS proc and in WoD you have to think about when to use SS and how to react to procs. (though like i said that thinking part may fade as well as we get more knowledgeable about the spec)

AoE:
MoP AoE is garbage and unless something needs to die ASAP it's usually better for your raid to let someone else do the AoEing. Like on Garrosh P1 adds you can have some shrooms preplanted before the fight to detonate them, but during progress that was all I did to them. It was just more efficient to let other classes do the AoEing. Now mechanics wise preplanted shrooms are good, like on Sha of Fear they were good to replant every submerge and on Sha of Pride you could plan for the adds with some shrooms (although not necessary for a boss kill), but other than that Shrooms were mostly a trigger for trinkets/meta preplanted under the boss.
Hurricane in MoP (and most likely in WoD) is terrible. You need a significant amount of adds for it to be worth it in the first place, it is only good for about 1/3 of the time of your normal rotation (solar eclipse) and it gets you stuck in the worst possible location without NG after you're done. Then its damage is probably also some of the weakest of any AoE spells in the game.
Then multidotting adds in MoP used to be a great AoE tool, since you would get a lot of SS procs and it would move along your eclipse bar at an acceptable speed. Since SoO though, even though we have a ton of crit (though possibly atm not more than in T15 due to mastery entering the scene) we need to be careful with not getting stuck without NG. Atm on Galakras I can be competitive with any class in the guild, but that's more likely due to the fact that I can setup a perfect eclipse preparation for each pack of adds and have shrooms preplanted, and not because our AoE is that good were it any other situation. (we don't whore out on galakras and just kill it fyi)
In Wod our AoE will be better than right now. Even though the tuning isn't finished the mechanics are just better. No punishment towards singletarget for using AoE, we can do some AoE on adds that popped in and go back to the boss afterwards and pick up where we ended up on the eclipse bar. Starfall is strong, mainly because atm it has no AoE cap. So on packs 10+ out AoE should star beating out other classes. Also because Sunfire has no AoE cap and is strong if targets get to live for a bit. Then filling with Moonfire, Stellar Flare or Hurricane/Astral Storm depending on the situation (duration adds live, do I have to move, do they, amount) should be enough to do competitive AoE.
We will still need to watch our eclipse and time it out properly to get the best benefit from it for AoE (idk what that is at this point, possibly Start of solar for Sunfire Sunfall since the new DoT mechanics), like in MoP we had to be in solar optimally (unless you went for multidotting then lunar was better obviously).

Multitarget:
MoP multitarget really was nothing else than keep up more DoTs and use them SSs. WoD multitarget is exactly thesame, except for the fact that spending more time putting up dots means that we have less time to spend the SSs which creates actually interesting scenarios. Depending on the amount of targets and the amount of SS procs you get, we might have to use Star-/Sunfall. This is actually one of the things I look forward to most in beta boss testing. Seeing how multitarget works out in practice.

TLDR:
Singletarget will be mindless, but after 2 years of MoP that's not a change.
AoE will be better, more versatile and not as punishing.
Multitarget might be where skill comes to light.

edit movement: 1 DoT to spam mindlessly on the move instead of choosing between 2. Possibly AC/SS/Starfall. Still all pretty basic once stuff is figured out.

[lappee]

@Miraclous

Agree on single target

AoE however not so much. Yes its better than in MoP (since we didnt really have anything there) but its still punishing single target (unless you only do sunfire). It takes a long time to get it going properly (compared to other classes) and as of current tuning isnt any better than other classes (after a long aoe on 5 targets).

Multitarget: is just a decision between moonfire/sunfire and stellar flare. As currently starfall is better than starsurge on 2 targets but thats a tuning question.

Movement: Yeah, lets just spam that button...

[Miraclous]

@Miraclous

AoE however not so much. Yes its better than in MoP (since we didnt really have anything there) but its still punishing single target (unless you only do sunfire). It takes a long time to get it going properly (compared to other classes) and as of current tuning isnt any better than other classes (after a long aoe on 5 targets).

Ofcourse it punishes singletarget, but what I meant is that after AoE is over we can just pick up our rotation and except from maybe not having all your dots up on the boss (which you might very well be able to maintain without dps loss) you wont be stuck without anything like NG in MoP.
Our AoE will take time to get going indeed, but it should scale better with the more adds we get. AoE on 5 dummies isn't really AoE imo. That's like Fallen protectors when only Rook is gone, more like a multitarget situation for moonkins.

On bosses like Gara'jal, Elegon, Will of the Emperor, Wind Lord mel'jarak, Amber shaper, Grand empress, Tsulong, Sha of Fear (and that's just T14) I feel like Starfall will be godmode in its current form. They all have different kinds of AoE/many target situations with on most of them relatively long-lived adds where our Aoe/multitarget mechanics will shine.

On adds like Sha of Pride our AoE will still suck since they die in a matter of seconds, but for those kinds of AoE you don't bring a class to a fight (unless it's Ragnaros heroic ).

[Deleted]

Talking about the simplicity of the rotations: burning crusade rotations were even more basic (apart from a couple of classes like rogue, all you could see was shadow bolt / frostbolt / fireball / steady shot spam), yet that was one of the greatest expansions in my experience. So the game can be good even if rotations are somewhat simple. Most of the classes have fairly easy rotations anyway.

[lappee]

@Miraclous What i mean with the single target punishment is the starfall usage, removing starsurges availability, as well as the potential high peak losses. but thats nothing to really worry about in reality.

While multidotting is good, it seriously takes way too long for moonfires to start rolling and stellar flare has target "cap" due to its duration so 5 targets is close to optimal amount.

Starfall will be extremely powerful if theres bosses like in T14, and our aoe is good in the long run but we lack the ability to instantenously start our aoe. Even with CA it takes rather long time to get it going. So if AoE's last for a minute or two, moonkins are good. if not then they're mediocre at best. We'll see what tuning has to offer.

@Darlissa Yeah rotations were simple back then, i didnt play dps that much apart from PvP since resto was so strong. The game was just generally better at that time in my opinion due to mechanics being "hard" to handle with the toolkit we had.
Also back then we werent used to having shit tons of "oh shit" buttons to press, nor were there any movement dps abilities like currently. It was all about positionin etc which i'd like to get back (thus the starfall arguments)

[Deleted]

I like moonkin as it is, because we have so much mobility. And starfall is good, because it can reveal stealthed enemies.

Btw, when will blizzard fix pvp set bonus? They dont work at all.

[Miraclous]

Btw, when will blizzard fix pvp set bonus? They dont work at all.

Hopefully after they fix CA/DoC/Euphoria. :P pvp set bonuns shouldn't be their prio atm imo.

[lappee]

PvP set bonuses work just fine in beta, 4-set doesnt have a timer but it works. Starfall doesnt hit stealthed enemies (atleast in pvp)

[Akaena]

Starfall doesnt hit stealthed enemies (atleast in pvp)

Can confirm this, was leveling up on the PvP server and mass pulled mobs with starfall up and got open up by a rogue.

[Deleted]

PvP set bonuses work just fine in beta, 4-set doesnt have a timer but it works. Starfall doesnt hit stealthed enemies (atleast in pvp)

I have tried set bonuses, but starsurge charges never come.

[xtramuscle]

@ Talador opt for the mage tower, 'Guardian Orb' synergy with starfall+stampeding roar = SICK.