1. #2561
    While I understand why, I don't think it really has a major impact on sustainable multi-target (e.g. Iron Maidens), and only a minor impact on "short-term" Multi-Target. You lose some hardcasts that could have been fillers. I don't disagree that the mechanic not shifting to the next recent instance of the DOT is good, but I'm not really persuaded it's a major damage loss that we'd consider Euphoria to take its place.

    Considering the major loss would come from things like having Adds die at the transition point, and losing your Moonfire refresh--the boss's MF won't proc SS--and therefore losing out on a few empowered casts (maybe 1 or 2 procs). I can see the argument here, but it's also avoidable.
    Last edited by Cyous; 2014-09-28 at 06:45 AM.
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  2. #2562
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Its very, very minor dps loss (if at all) on sustainable multi target fights, like Iron Maidens, but any fight that has dieing adds its gonna be a dps loss (and major at some points) like Kargath.

  3. #2563
    Quote Originally Posted by Miraclous View Post
    Now I was hoping that maybe extending the existing Dots using BoP would retrigger them, but nope. Halfway through the log I started Wrathing/SFing the main dummy again but SS still wouldn't proc...
    So, if we Specc into BoP and there are adds that you dot and the adds die, even after refreshing the dots on the main target wont give us proccs anymore making the talent utterly useless? Or did i missread something? Quite tired at the moment.

  4. #2564
    Quote Originally Posted by Apero View Post
    So, if we Specc into BoP and there are adds that you dot and the adds die, even after refreshing the dots on the main target wont give us proccs anymore making the talent utterly useless? Or did i missread something? Quite tired at the moment.
    You'd have to refresh the dots on the main target manually, just extending them with the BoP mechanic means that you won't get any SS procs from the main target.

  5. #2565
    Sadly BoP is more about the 10% increased dot damage than the extending, since on most encounters (except Gruul and Butcher I suppose) have so much movement we end up casting MF/SnF anyway. And as Lappe said, the big dps loss with the most recent dot mechanic is short lived adds. We might end up not casting dots at all because the damage gained from a short MF/SnF doesn't outweight the loss in SS procs. This will especially be true when you are about to leave an eclipse, and thus wont be able to recast the dot for 20 (10 /w euphoria) seconds.

  6. #2566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apero View Post
    So, if we Specc into BoP and there are adds that you dot and the adds die, even after refreshing the dots on the main target wont give us proccs anymore making the talent utterly useless? Or did i missread something? Quite tired at the moment.
    You can recast fresh Snf/MF on the target. Although they won't extend any of your long-duration BoP DoTs, they will repurpose them as the most recent DoT and they'll proc SS again.

    edit: missed this but its correct
    Quote Originally Posted by kaldonir View Post
    You'd have to refresh the dots on the main target manually, just extending them with the BoP mechanic means that you won't get any SS procs from the main target.

  7. #2567
    Ah, oversaw the extension by hardcasts baked in the talent. It makes sense now. Thanks guys.

  8. #2568
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    Sadly BoP is more about the 10% increased dot damage than the extending, since on most encounters (except Gruul and Butcher I suppose) have so much movement we end up casting MF/SnF anyway. And as Lappe said, the big dps loss with the most recent dot mechanic is short lived adds. We might end up not casting dots at all because the damage gained from a short MF/SnF doesn't outweight the loss in SS procs. This will especially be true when you are about to leave an eclipse, and thus wont be able to recast the dot for 20 (10 /w euphoria) seconds.
    The dot extension is actually quite useful in many of the fights and it keeps getting more and more useful the more haste you get (+ 4-set).

    Sure we probably wont cast moonfire on adds that die quickly, but we most likely will cast sunfire specially if they're clumped up together. I honestly think SS should be changed into working with most recent dot, or the dot with longest duration (which is likely the easier solution programming wise)

  9. #2569
    Not trying to say it is useless, just feels a bit weird that the main effect of the talent isn't actually the biggest dps increase. It works fine gameplay wise, it still achieves its goal, since the dot extension does impact our rotation while the 10% dot damage doesn't. Only bad thing is that it could affect our talent choice on multi target fights since the 10% dot dmg could be stronger than StFl.

    About the most recent dot, if it were to change to be the most recent active dot or the one with the longest duration, when would it carry over to the new dot? Since your dots isn't synced, you would either get less or more ticks that have a chance to proc. In theory it would even out over time since you can have anywhere between 0.01 and 3.99 seconds between the 2 dot ticks, but in most situations you would actually still lose a little bit if you cast MF twice in a row on 2 different targets. (since tick time is 2 seconds and gcd is 1.5 seconds, your first dot would always tick 1.5 seconds after your second dot, and on average you would lose 75% of a dot ticks chance to proc SS when that happens.) Obviously this is really minor and most likely wont ever matter, but just something to keep in mind if it does change.

  10. #2570
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    Not trying to say it is useless, just feels a bit weird that the main effect of the talent isn't actually the biggest dps increase. It works fine gameplay wise, it still achieves its goal, since the dot extension does impact our rotation while the 10% dot damage doesn't. Only bad thing is that it could affect our talent choice on multi target fights since the 10% dot dmg could be stronger than StFl.
    I havent done any math regarding how big dps increase the dot extenstion is (aka having those extra globals, which ofc depends on number of targets etc) but for 1-2 target fights i'd say its pretty major.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    About the most recent dot, if it were to change to be the most recent active dot or the one with the longest duration, when would it carry over to the new dot? Since your dots isn't synced, you would either get less or more ticks that have a chance to proc. In theory it would even out over time since you can have anywhere between 0.01 and 3.99 seconds between the 2 dot ticks, but in most situations you would actually still lose a little bit if you cast MF twice in a row on 2 different targets. (since tick time is 2 seconds and gcd is 1.5 seconds, your first dot would always tick 1.5 seconds after your second dot, and on average you would lose 75% of a dot ticks chance to proc SS when that happens.) Obviously this is really minor and most likely wont ever matter, but just something to keep in mind if it does change.
    It doesnt really matter, currently you'll "lose" around the same amount of ticks when you put a new moonfire on second target.

    Also its tricky to know which sunfire is the most recent one when spread to multiple targets. Considering you'll have around 6 targets and 3 of them die quickly and the other 3 dont.

  11. #2571
    Just wondering here about racials..

    I know crit isn't our top-dog stat, but what would be the dps difference between tauren and troll? I might like to go back to tauren, but 2% crit damage sounds weakish vs troll berserking. 200 stam is pretty strong though (7% of my hp with a premade lvl100 on beta) and i do like tanking, but ill be dpsing most of the time..

  12. #2572
    I've always had a soft spot for Warstomp as well. That ability has been so useful over the years on various fights and while it was not a dps increase to use it, it did save other people or help me do other things so I was glad to have it. I am curious as the dps differences between the 2% crit damage vs berserking though.

  13. #2573
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    I've always had a soft spot for Warstomp as well. That ability has been so useful over the years on various fights and while it was not a dps increase to use it, it did save other people or help me do other things so I was glad to have it. I am curious as the dps differences between the 2% crit damage vs berserking though.
    Both are diminished, by us having low levels of crit (thus crit damage will be lower) and by dots not snap shotting any more. Berzerking will only allow an extra 1? cast during the non glyphed CA, and can't be straight macro'd to it any more because of 4set, so we might just find ourselves manually popping it during lunar peak if another trinket procs.

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  14. #2574
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Also its tricky to know which sunfire is the most recent one when spread to multiple targets. Considering you'll have around 6 targets and 3 of them die quickly and the other 3 dont.
    at the moment it is the target you cast Sunfire on that gets the most recent dot. (I'd assume it is just coded so that the Sunfire applied to all other targets will never be considered for SS procs.)

  15. #2575
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    at the moment it is the target you cast Sunfire on that gets the most recent dot. (I'd assume it is just coded so that the Sunfire applied to all other targets will never be considered for SS procs.)
    Well it's still going to be tricky if the names are the same, unless you just keep the same one targeted all the time without swapping to boss (or focus the add you initially cast sunrise on)

  16. #2576
    Yeah, good thing is on fights where adds are stacked on top of a boss we can simply Sunfire the boss. Would it be possible to write an addon that tracks the last target you cast Sunfire/MF on? Or is the only way to store information like this through boss/focus frames? Might be useful to get a warning whenever the target of your most recent dot dies.

  17. #2577
    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    Yeah, good thing is on fights where adds are stacked on top of a boss we can simply Sunfire the boss. Would it be possible to write an addon that tracks the last target you cast Sunfire/MF on? Or is the only way to store information like this through boss/focus frames? Might be useful to get a warning whenever the target of your most recent dot dies.
    I could imagine you can store this information via the nameplates, but you'd have to have that one specific nameplate on the screen all the time I think.

  18. #2578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    at the moment it is the target you cast Sunfire on that gets the most recent dot. (I'd assume it is just coded so that the Sunfire applied to all other targets will never be considered for SS procs.)
    Did you test this? Because I do not recall this being the case when I did.

  19. #2579
    Quote Originally Posted by Miraclous View Post
    Did you test this? Because I do not recall this being the case when I did.
    yeah, tested using Sunfire on the small packs of dummies in shatt, extending the dot on the target I cast Sunfire on. Did this 5 times. Then I tried extending the dot on one of the other dummies, no proc over 5 min.

  20. #2580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    yeah, tested using Sunfire on the small packs of dummies in shatt, extending the dot on the target I cast Sunfire on. Did this 5 times. Then I tried extending the dot on one of the other dummies, no proc over 5 min.
    You're right. I guess when I tested this for a couple of minutes earlier I got really unlucky by not getting any SS procs. I edited my earlier post to avoid confusion.

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