[Mage-WoD] Mage Beta Discussion

[mrgreenthump]

I've had plenty of situations where bosses have been moved willy nilly. Moreover, with an 8 yard range that presents a very small margin of error.

If only it counter from only the center of the boss, which it doesn't. If am not wrong they buffed almost every movement oriented boss to have silly hit boxes after 5.1.

[Imnick]

You do know Kuni was being sarcastic about Frozen Orb right

[Elegiac]

I'm calling bullshit on this. You are not even thinking at this point. Go read Imnick's post he made a few back. Some of the SoO bosses don't even have the fucking ability to be moved. And how big do you think most of the movable ones hitboxes are? (hint: they are quite large)

Getting rather mad, aren't we? Prismatic Crystal represents a completely new type of damage cooldown and it is more than acceptable to be concerned about its mechanical viability.

You're running on fumes now. We don't know how it is being implemented.

The current tooltip would lead to the quite logical inference that it relies on a reticle.

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I will use my same argument that I have used with some other ability I forget what it is.

If you are on a boss where the boss does move randomly then crystal will not be optimal and you should pick another talent. If you do not then it is your fault for not being smart enough to select the correct talent not the tank for doing his job (even if it is done badly). There are other choices and choices should be optimal under different conditions. If ability's are meant to be good for all conditions then 1 will always be top and win in all situations. Ability's must be different enough and be situational enough that make choice important less we end up with yet another expansion of cookie cutter builds.

I've already got my sights on Arcane Orb given its synergy with the rotation, so.

[Frost1129]

Getting rather mad, aren't we? Prismatic Crystal represents a completely new type of damage cooldown and it is more than acceptable to be concerned about its mechanical viability.

The current tooltip would lead to the quite logical inference that it relies on a reticle.

Not mad, no. Disappointed that your arguments against Prismatic Crystal are so poor. Comparing it to Lightwell? A spell that required external interaction. Or that we have to target the ground? You might as well begin asking for blizzard and flamestrike to be gone too since they require a reticle to use.

[Frah]

the problem I have with crystal is that although you target it automatically nothing has been said of what happens when it does or is about to run out. If it runs out do I need to find my own target? If it is about to run out in 1 second and I start a fireball cast am I going to lose the fireball? I feel like coming out of the crystal is going to be more of the potential annoyance really.

[Akraen]

Things should be drawn or redirected to the Crystal automatically like grounding totem, imo.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Things should be drawn or redirected to the Crystal automatically like grounding totem, imo.

There's a few issues with that, such as how to handle cleave events like ABarr or Splitting Ice. Or even just straight up AOE, how would it handle Blizzard? Steal all the hits and increase them? Could be interesting at least. If you stole Grounding's code and modified it, how would it work with Orb? One could also argue a skill cap point, in knowing when to swap off to not lose your next cast. I'm sure it'll be iterated on, though. It's something that's going to need tweaks to feel right.

[Deleted]

If enemies move we are owned even more, in that case... I would rather target my crystal... Either that or they make it copy a fraction of any damage I deal to my target(s) and multiply it!

[Imnick]

I don't have a massive problem with targeting my crystal but I could also envisage a world where it just builds a buff on the crystal equal to the damage you do to whatever your main target happens to be while it is up

[Swizzle]

Just to go back a few points here; people actually have a problem using a targeting reticule? When has this ever been an issue? If you could survive Anub'arak, you can survive anything. Does anyone here remember having to cast two different ranks of Flamestrike to get two DoTs ticking since same ranks didn't stack?

[Kuni Zyrekai]

It was a minor complaint re: Freeze's use in single target rotation. That's where it started. I'm sure more have started hating it for RoP. They seem to have no issue with it for AOE. You do have to admit, it's not exactly elegant needing to activate and then click to use an ability that requires it. But I suppose that's what the talent options are for, pick the ones that don't require it.

[Akraen]

There's a few issues with that, such as how to handle cleave events like ABarr or Splitting Ice. Or even just straight up AOE, how would it handle Blizzard? Steal all the hits and increase them? Could be interesting at least. If you stole Grounding's code and modified it, how would it work with Orb? One could also argue a skill cap point, in knowing when to swap off to not lose your next cast. I'm sure it'll be iterated on, though. It's something that's going to need tweaks to feel right.

I think it'd feel great if all damage is redirected to it, including AoE and cleave. Say there are 2 targets and my crystal, and I chuck an Ice Lance into Target1, but since the crystal is up, the Ice Lance damage plus the splitting ice cleave on Target2 are calculated and put onto the crystal instead. While the crystal is up it just sucks up all potential damage, including cleave and AoE.

I programmed a spell like this back on a MUD, it's not too tough to figure out. You don't want the player losing their potential damage or the talent becomes impractical in any fight with cleave/AoE, but if you don't do something like this, then it will feel awkward. Based off how people complained about Alter Time, would the design team honestly look at crystal and not see these potential issues?

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It was a minor complaint re: Freeze's use in single target rotation. That's where it started. I'm sure more have started hating it for RoP. They seem to have no issue with it for AOE. You do have to admit, it's not exactly elegant needing to activate and then click to use an ability that requires it. But I suppose that's what the talent options are for, pick the ones that don't require it.

When we get to balancing we have to be vigilant to make sure they remember the spirit of what you say here, Kuni. You have to remember the culture and community here. A "best" will be calculated, even if incorrectly, and then shoved down our throats. Mages will lose raid spots if they don't pick the determined "best" and many of us will struggle to prove one thing or another, it won't be an enjoyable thing. The talents need to fundamentally be equal or at least viable in some situations or nothing is accomplished by moving them around.

[Frost1129]

When we get to balancing we have to be vigilant to make sure they remember the spirit of what you say here, Kuni. You have to remember the culture and community here. A "best" will be calculated, even if incorrectly, and then shoved down our throats. Mages will lose raid spots if they don't pick the determined "best" and many of us will struggle to prove one thing or another, it won't be an enjoyable thing. The talents need to fundamentally be equal or at least viable in some situations or nothing is accomplished by moving them around.

When you say they need to be equal, do you mean the talents need to be equal in all scenarios?

[Akraen]

If their goal is "choice" - then that would be a requirement to fulfill the goal. They somehow accomplished it with Blazing Speed and Ice Floes for frost mages, maybe just because neither is so strongly needed that there is an apparent choice.

They couldn't do it with the mage bombs, then their fix for that was to act like it was their goal all along for LB to be 1-2 targets, NT 3-4, FB 5+ which is a horrible design because all we do is just go through stacks of tomes each night.

[Deleted]

There's a few issues with that, such as how to handle cleave events like ABarr or Splitting Ice. Or even just straight up AOE, how would it handle Blizzard? Steal all the hits and increase them? Could be interesting at least. If you stole Grounding's code and modified it, how would it work with Orb? One could also argue a skill cap point, in knowing when to swap off to not lose your next cast. I'm sure it'll be iterated on, though. It's something that's going to need tweaks to feel right.

Actually I think handling the focusing crystal like a grounding totem is a brilliant idea. It would also solve situations of cleave on the edge of the crystals AoE. It would also solve the target switching issue.
Consuming the whole cleave damage and redistributing it between all targets does only add the 30% extra from the crystal. Only thing would be to prevent spawning an additional projectile for the crystal. Though with that functionality making the crystal not attackable at all would not hurt, I think.

In general I would assume that the crystal will not soak AoE damage. Pulsing from AoE hits is too strong, sucking in a whole AoE is strange and how should Arcane Explosion behave?

It was a minor complaint re: Freeze's use in single target rotation. That's where it started. I'm sure more have started hating it for RoP. They seem to have no issue with it for AOE. You do have to admit, it's not exactly elegant needing to activate and then click to use an ability that requires it. But I suppose that's what the talent options are for, pick the ones that don't require it.

I think a ground targeting something once every minute is ok. RoP was no different on the intervals. Rain of Fire every couple of seconds felt strange, when destro warlocks were up to that.


Another thing:
As a frost mage I am somewhat worried about the water jet ability the water elemental will get via perks. As of now it seems as it would need some careful timing when to activate and that timing would probably include having a frost bolt in the air while casting a second and than a third to squeeze 3 fof charges out of the 4 second duration.
I think the water elemental should channel water jet 4s and every 2s of channeling the water elemental places 1 stack of a debuff that last 3s on the target. Now if the debuffed target is hit by frost bolt 1 stack is consumed and the mage gets a fof charge.

edit:

If their goal is "choice" - then that would be a requirement to fulfill the goal. They somehow accomplished it with Blazing Speed and Ice Floes for frost mages, maybe just because neither is so strongly needed that there is an apparent choice.

They couldn't do it with the mage bombs, then their fix for that was to act like it was their goal all along for LB to be 1-2 targets, NT 3-4, FB 5+ which is a horrible design because all we do is just go through stacks of tomes each night.

If we have an about equal choice between two talents in a given situation, than we are in a good place I would say. Having talents feel different and still perform equal in any situation will be hard to achieve.
Having to burn through a stack of Tomes during a raid is not that bad in my opinion. Any raider who does that will most likely spend more on pots and flasks in the same raid. I would rather wish for a less buggy talent frame, that does not force me to reload every time I want to change something since it locks up.

[Frost1129]

If their goal is "choice" - then that would be a requirement to fulfill the goal. They somehow accomplished it with Blazing Speed and Ice Floes for frost mages, maybe just because neither is so strongly needed that there is an apparent choice.

They couldn't do it with the mage bombs, then their fix for that was to act like it was their goal all along for LB to be 1-2 targets, NT 3-4, FB 5+ which is a horrible design because all we do is just go through stacks of tomes each night.

If all the talents are equal though, doesn't that make them boring? I kind of like the bomb tier design mindset, maybe if it was just a bit more fluid it would be better.

[Frah]

If their goal is "choice" - then that would be a requirement to fulfill the goal. They somehow accomplished it with Blazing Speed and Ice Floes for frost mages, maybe just because neither is so strongly needed that there is an apparent choice.

They couldn't do it with the mage bombs, then their fix for that was to act like it was their goal all along for LB to be 1-2 targets, NT 3-4, FB 5+ which is a horrible design because all we do is just go through stacks of tomes each night.

Choice is only really a thing if they are truly equal. As is fairly obvious in a system as complex as wow making 3 things equal always is not really something blizz should try and do. If they try to make 3 talents equal for everything then they will fail almost every time and then we are left with no choice but the best. You can however create the illusion of choice by making 3 talents have strengths and weaknesses for various scenarios. I say illusion of choice since 1 should be better but there can still be an element of choice in there depending how 1 person might approach the same scenario differently from the next. I would rather have an illusion of choice than the highly improbable chance of 3 different talents being equal giving a true choice.

I feel like looking at the talents Blizz is now taking up the illusion of choice method which is a really good thing in my view.

[Polarthief]

There's a few issues with that, such as how to handle cleave events like ABarr or Splitting Ice. Or even just straight up AOE, how would it handle Blizzard? Steal all the hits and increase them? Could be interesting at least. If you stole Grounding's code and modified it, how would it work with Orb? One could also argue a skill cap point, in knowing when to swap off to not lose your next cast. I'm sure it'll be iterated on, though. It's something that's going to need tweaks to feel right.

I think it'd feel great if all damage is redirected to it, including AoE and cleave. Say there are 2 targets and my crystal, and I chuck an Ice Lance into Target1, but since the crystal is up, the Ice Lance damage plus the splitting ice cleave on Target2 are calculated and put onto the crystal instead. While the crystal is up it just sucks up all potential damage, including cleave and AoE.

I programmed a spell like this back on a MUD, it's not too tough to figure out. You don't want the player losing their potential damage or the talent becomes impractical in any fight with cleave/AoE, but if you don't do something like this, then it will feel awkward. Based off how people complained about Alter Time, would the design team honestly look at crystal and not see these potential issues?

I would actually be okay with this. My only complaint would be in sudden situations where a boss HAD to be moved, or a constantly moving boss, or hell a boss that has awkward/strange hitboxes and you aren't sure where to place the crystal, or ANY pug content where you don't know what the hell the tank is doing. If there could be some form of interaction between the crystal and your primary target.

Incoming scratchpad of an ability:

Prismatic Crystal
40 yard range

Places a crystal nearby your current target that lasts ~20 seconds. All damage dealt to the target and all targets within 10 yards of the target will instead be redirected to the crystal. After 10 seconds, the crystal will no longer redirect attacks and instead attack the original target and all targets within 10 yards of the target for 13% of the total damage redirected to the crystal, split evenly among all targets every second for 10 seconds.

Sorry if that was a bit hard to understand; I wanted to try and make it like an actual Blizzard tooltip. More info below:

- Crystal is no longer attackable and instead redirects all damage you deal to your primary target, and all targets within 10 yards of your primary target.
- Crystal deals 130% of total damage it absorbed from all targets over 10s (13%/s) to primary target. If other targets are within 10 yards of primary target for a tick, all targets take 13%/(N+1) damage per tick (where N is the total number of additional enemies in the 10 yard range of the Primary target).
- No need to place the crystal with a targeting reticule (Since this is an issue for some; the removal of Freeze points to that), no need to worry about target swapping (since everything is redirected), and no more worrying about bosses moving, idiot tanks being idiots, or any other issue. The crystal will attack the target you cast it "on" regardless of range between the boss and the crystal.

NOW the only problem becomes wtf to do with the other "wonderful" choices on the L100 tier.

[Northem]

I would actually be okay with this. My only complaint would be in sudden situations where a boss HAD to be moved, or a constantly moving boss, or hell a boss that has awkward/strange hitboxes and you aren't sure where to place the crystal, or ANY pug content where you don't know what the hell the tank is doing. If there could be some form of interaction between the crystal and your primary target.

Incoming scratchpad of an ability:

Prismatic Crystal
40 yard range

Places a crystal nearby your current target that lasts ~20 seconds. All damage dealt to the target and all targets within 10 yards of the target will instead be redirected to the crystal. After 10 seconds, the crystal will no longer redirect attacks and instead attack the original target and all targets within 10 yards of the target for 13% of the total damage redirected to the crystal, split evenly among all targets every second for 10 seconds.

Sorry if that was a bit hard to understand; I wanted to try and make it like an actual Blizzard tooltip. More info below:

- Crystal is no longer attackable and instead redirects all damage you deal to your primary target, and all targets within 10 yards of your primary target.
- Crystal deals 130% of total damage it absorbed from all targets over 10s (13%/s) to primary target. If other targets are within 10 yards of primary target for a tick, all targets take 13%/(N+1) damage per tick (where N is the total number of additional enemies in the 10 yard range of the Primary target).
- No need to place the crystal with a targeting reticule (Since this is an issue for some; the removal of Freeze points to that), no need to worry about target swapping (since everything is redirected), and no more worrying about bosses moving, idiot tanks being idiots, or any other issue. The crystal will attack the target you cast it "on" regardless of range between the boss and the crystal.

NOW the only problem becomes wtf to do with the other "wonderful" choices on the L100 tier.

That would be a way to make the spell more dynamic and at the same time solve its problems.

I had also thought of something similar... Very good idea indeed!

[mrgreenthump]

So yeah, we want another "Press button, get dps" talent? Good to know.