[Mage-WoD] Mage Beta Discussion

[Lulbalance]

I mean, they've been crying for years about Mages. Also, the Images only cast your filler, which is amongst the weakest spells of all 3 specs, so it's not exactly +300% DPS unless you're only spamming that.



I disagree. Blizzard wouldn't just massively buff this for no reason unless it really was as weak as they say (and I don't remember anyone here mentioning how weak MI is, nor do I have beta access to test it myself). Now they're going to test to see if MI is better and nerf it accordingly; could be through making part of the damage a short-duration DoT, similar to Ignite or Chaos Bolt with Grim of Sac, which would nerf it in PvP and not PvE. They can't continue to be afraid to make PvE changes without severely screwing up PvP. Now that PvE set bonuses don't work in PvP, they can make these crazy (and fun!) tier sets like we've seen, such as Orb giving you perma-FoF, and Hot Streak giving you perma Hot Streak for awhile (most likely with an ICD to prevent 100% perma HS lol).



Actually, I'd say IF would probably be a better choice of talent unless you're doing mass AoE pulls (like people used to do during the original Golden Lotus dailies) because it's a consistent power boost rather than a cooldown, in addition to MI being uncontrolled little bastards that have no AoE power, while IF also empowers your AoE spells. Not saying it's a bad choice for soloing at all, just giving my two cents.

... and SCREW Rune, though I'm sure most people know my stance on the Rune debate by now, haha.



Yup! Much better system. We also have multiple tiers of fun/damage (most notably L75 and L100) rather than having one that's boring/damage.



Is it really that good? Guessing it's the short cooldown that does it, and even moreso in PvP due to being a mobile way to gain a million charges (though with the PvP 2P/4P, Overpowered might become better, but that's strictly referring to PvP obviously)

This is why I enjoy reading your posts, more insightful than most.

On the MI topic: I think you're bang on with the suggestion of a pvp instance exclusive nerf. I think of the disagreement on whether of the new buff is an over buff can be directly tied back to those of is who concentrate on pvp and play multiple classes at fairly high levels... What I mean by that is; as a dmg tool at let's say 2xxx - those things cast twice at the right time before dying and you win that game. Doesn't matter 1 or 100000 hp, 2 globals is enough ( I'm not saying you can pop them and afk.. This is on top of your burst) No one decent pops a offensive 2 min cd without being sure there's a window for cross and kill.

[Deleted]

Has there been any word on what they plan to do with fire? - It is so immensely dependable on crit and it seems they keep lowering what you can get.

Will fire get a rework? Or is it doomed to only be viable after 3 tiers of gear?

There are some tweaks being done via the leveling perks:

Improved Flamestrike: Flamestrike no longer has a cooldown.
Enhanced Inferno Blast: Reduces the cooldown of Inferno Blast by 1 sec.
Improved Pyroblast: Increases the critical strike chance of Pyroblast by 15%.
Improved Inferno Blast: Inferno Blast now spreads the damage over time effects of Pyroblast, Ignite, and Combustion to 2 additional targets.
Improved Combustion: Increases the duration of Combustion by 20%.
Improved Scorch: After casting Scorch, your movement speed is increased by 30% for 3 sec.
Improved Fireball and Frostfire Bolt: Increases the damage of Fireball and Frostfire Bolt by 20%.
Improved Dragon's Breath: Increases damage of Dragon's Breath by 50%.
Enhanced Fireball: "When your Fireball fails to critically strike a target, you gain a 5% increased chance for Fireball to be a critical strike for 15 sec. This effect ends when Fireball successfully critically strikes a target."

It still remains to be seen if it'll be enough to make Fire perform well enough at lower gear levels.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

My biggest issue is mostly we're in one school. Use specialize in say Arcane Fire or frost but at least have us have another school spells. We're not elementalists. We're Mages/Sorcerers damn it!

[Polarthief]

This is why I enjoy reading your posts, more insightful than most.

D'aaaw, well thank you (unless that was sarcasm, in which I say, meh, I'm used to people here hating me by now)

On the MI topic: I think you're bang on with the suggestion of a pvp instance exclusive nerf. I think of the disagreement on whether of the new buff is an over buff can be directly tied back to those of is who concentrate on pvp and play multiple classes at fairly high levels... What I mean by that is; as a dmg tool at let's say 2xxx - those things cast twice at the right time before dying and you win that game. Doesn't matter 1 or 100000 hp, 2 globals is enough ( I'm not saying you can pop them and afk.. This is on top of your burst) No one decent pops a offensive 2 min cd without being sure there's a window for cross and kill.

Oh for sure, and with that recent overbuff, you can be rest assured they'll knee-jerk react to it once everyone on the beta forum whines about it being too good, rather than doing a sensible solution such as only nerfing it in PvP through either a DoT (so it's not as bursty), or through nerfing its damage against PvP players (which they can do and do all the time, such as our bombs on live). If anyone happens to remember the whole fiasco that was buffing our Frostbolt in 5.4 PTR, you'll know what I'm referring to. If you don't, well, Blizz originally was going to keep Frostburn and just buff Frostbolt massively to the point where it would incentivize us to cast it over spamming IL all the time. Turns out people didn't like that idea (because every mouthbreather in PvP jumps on the NERF MAGES bandwagon), so they went with Icicles instead.

My biggest issue is mostly we're in one school. Use specialize in say Arcane Fire or frost but at least have us have another school spells. We're not elementalists. We're Mages/Sorcerers damn it!

I do agree to an extent. I disliked how much off-school stuff we had prior, but I'm kinda upset how little off-school stuff we have now.

[Jaylol]

Eh. It was always awkward and clunky for me. Now having to time it with FoF, it'll be even more annoying in my gameplay*. I just don't like it



* I'm saying MY gameplay. We all play differently, people! >.>

Fair enough but coming from someone who absolutely loathed it and didn't even consider taking it when it was somewhat viable and even the best bomb choice on some fights (cant think of any off the top of my head right now but I know there was at least 1-2 in early MoP where FB was arguably the best or at least one of the best bomb choices i think); it really doesn't feel anywhere near as bad as it currently is. Sure, I still dislike it and actually prefer the other talents in that row, but it's manageable. However, that may just because because it's so powerful right now that I'm don't care that it has a cast time but meh.

Also, if FB were instant, frost mages would have wayyy too many instants and only one hard casting spell and almost be one of the most mobile ranged specs especially since they're removing some cast while moving abilities (see: ele shamans lightning bolt and probably some other thing(s) I can't think of off the top of my head right now)

[Polarthief]

Fair enough but coming from someone who absolutely loathed it and didn't even consider taking it when it was somewhat viable and even the best bomb choice on some fights (cant think of any off the top of my head right now but I know there was at least 1-2 in early MoP where FB was arguably the best or at least one of the best bomb choices i think); it really doesn't feel anywhere near as bad as it currently is. Sure, I still dislike it and actually prefer the other talents in that row, but it's manageable. However, that may just because because it's so powerful right now that I'm don't care that it has a cast time but meh.

I mean, saying "it's manageable" and "not liking it" are two separate thing. Yes, I can manage it just find, I just don't like to, same case as you apparently. I'm also not going to do Mythics at all this expansion, so because I'm not going to play nearly as hardcore, I'll resort to QoL/Gameplay over "raw DPS", unless the difference is so massive that I'm inhibiting my raid group by not picking it.

Also, if FB were instant, frost mages would have wayyy too many instants and only one hard casting spell and almost be one of the most mobile ranged specs especially since they're removing some cast while moving abilities (see: ele shamans lightning bolt and probably some other thing(s) I can't think of off the top of my head right now)

I mean, Fire only has one hard cast spell. Fireball/Scorch (considered 1 spell because you never use both in your rotation, only one, based on if you're moving or not), so I don't really see that as an argument. I just don't see why FB HAS to be non-instant is all. *shrug*. Basically, the way I feel about Frost Bomb stems from me being a Warlock back in BC; I've always had this weird feeling towards debuffs/DoTs having a cast time (referring to Unstable Affliction).

[pyrostorm9001]

My biggest issue is mostly we're in one school. Use specialize in say Arcane Fire or frost but at least have us have another school spells. We're not elementalists. We're Mages/Sorcerers damn it!

During the MoP beta and the 5.0 patch many mages on the official forums (and fan forums like mmo champ) were posting that they didnt like that they needed to use spells from another school to complete their damage dealing toolkit.

This is just one of those threads http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4463612?page=1

I feel like they have taken that feedback and acted on it when designing our spec's roles and abilities for WoD

[Aeluron Lightsong]

During the MoP beta and the 5.0 patch many mages on the official forums (and fan forums like mmo champ) were posting that they didnt like that they needed to use spells from another school to complete their damage dealing toolkit.

This is just one of those threads http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4463612?page=1

I feel like they have taken that feedback and acted on it when designing our spec's roles and abilities for WoD

Well those people make me want to hit them with a stick. A very big stick with thorns on it.

[Deleted]

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...15647791263744

Well, this is interesting. If it will work Evanescence might be very strong. Immunity + healing every 45 seconds sounds nice for soloing.

[Ryken]

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...15647791263744

Well, this is interesting. If it will work Evanescence might be very strong. Immunity + healing every 45 seconds sounds nice for soloing.

He mentions a reduced amount though, I can't imagine more than 10% to be honest, and that's being generous considering 40% on iceblock would equate to 6% every 45sec, and to be honest a 10% heal wouldn't be that great for soloing, and not even close to the 10% spammable evo heal we have now... unless you meant soloing outside of instances, which, even with the joke about food, 10% is 2 ticks of food which is like 3 seconds of being out of combat.

[Bryci]

He mentions a reduced amount though, I can't imagine more than 10% to be honest, and that's being generous considering 40% on iceblock would equate to 6% every 45sec, and to be honest a 10% heal wouldn't be that great for soloing, and not even close to the 10% spammable evo heal we have now... unless you meant soloing outside of instances, which, even with the joke about food, 10% is 2 ticks of food which is like 3 seconds of being out of combat.

Around 5% hp regen / sec during Evanescene (total 15%) wouldn't be a big stuff. They always say mage supposed to avoid dmg not healing back but man let's face it every class has some sort of regen/healing etc mages has Ice Block which is not equal to healing even with the glyph. 5 min cd on it just makes it awful to start with while any other classes can heal themselves like nonstop. Cold Snap ditto 22% heal but 3min cd. I mean I'd sacrifice entire Ice Block any day for something like warlock's soul leech+soul link combo. Sitting down to eat food between 2-3 mobs is just pretty ridiculous while tanks are able to pull 6-8 mobs like that and actually killing them faster than me...

Even Ice Barrier is a joke lol. GCD? 25 sec CD? absorb like 10k dmg? please warlock's Soul Leech let's say as Destro can sustain such shield effortlessly.

[Deleted]

I believe we'll have a high defensive potential, if we want to. There are four talent rows with talents improving our survivability.
Level 15: Evanescence
Level 30: Alter Time and Ice Barrier (Flameglow is still kind of strange and I think it isn't very strong compared to AT and IB)
Level 60: Cold Snap, Cauterize (I won't count Greater Invisibility here, because it takes you out of fight while alone)
Level 90: Mirror Image

If you take these talents and use them right it should be possible to avoid/negate a lot of damage.
Evanescence will heal you for 3 seconds (well, we don't know how strong that might be yet) while giving you immunity. If they want it to interact with Ice Block-Glyph it might interact with Cold Snap as well, and that could be very strong. If that works Amplify Magic might be very useful in this situation too.
At the moment it is kiting or burning it down before it kills you. I think this will be the case in WoD, too (Frost with T17 has high burstpotential) but if Blizzard tunes some of our abilities the right way (Ice Barrier, Mirror Image HP) and allows us some synergies (like Evanescence + Cold Snap interaction) it won't be too bad for us.

[Bryci]

Everything you mentioned falls under concept of cooldowns. Alter, Cold Snap, Ice Block, Mirror Images all cooldowns not healing abilities or regen or such. Something you can use in every 3-5 mins to save yourself occasionally is not equal to healing utility even if they have some sort of healing effects. I want something like every other class has. Balance druid can heal in need with healing touch or rejuvenation if a elem shaman needs heal there you go healing surge, healing rain... hunter has pet which already a win and they have regens and stuffs not to mention warlocks soul link soul leech + pet. Water elemental on frost can't even taunt and it is very poor dies like flies. The problem is that all those classes I mentioned and all those if forgot HAS defensive cooldowns just like us, but we do not have healing abilities like they have this is the issue. You can come up with the question that why do you want to heal as a mage, beacues I want to stay alive and what if 2-3 mins cd on cooldown? As a mage not even doing significantly higher dmg than any other lets say ranged classes so I could rely on my high dmg to kill everything before they reach me.

[Imnick]

We don't and have never needed a helping hand doing solo content, frankly I am baffled that anyone's bringing this up as if it's an issue.
Let's be clear. This isn't really about people wanting an issue with our class fixed, it's people seeing other classes getting toys and crying that they didn't get one too.

If you find yourself in a situation while questing where you'd need to use all of your defensive cooldowns more than once every three minutes then you probably deserved to get killed, and wouldn't have survived as another class either.

[Frost1129]

We don't and have never needed a helping hand doing solo content, frankly I am baffled that anyone's bringing this up as if it's an issue.
Let's be clear. This isn't really about people wanting an issue with our class fixed, it's people seeing other classes getting toys and crying that they didn't get one too.

Exactly this.

If with evanesce/ice block, ice barrier, cold snap/cauterize, nova snare (or talented knockup / slow), polymorph, invis, blink, pet nova if frost spec, mirror images if talented you STILL need heals then it's time to sit down and re-evaluate your play.

We don't need heals. There is never a single reason for a mage to ever need a self heal for solo content.

There are so many other problems we should be focusing our efforts on - wasting time with this "boohoo I can't self heal" nonsense will get us nowhere important.

[Deleted]

That's what I wanted to show. I don't think we need a "real" heal. It is way more fun to do things by using what you have.

Another question:
Does the Meteor/Comet Storm talent compete with Prismatic Crystal at the moment or is the Crystal much stronger? (especially for Frost)

[gallamann]

We don't and have never needed a helping hand doing solo content, frankly I am baffled that anyone's bringing this up as if it's an issue.
Let's be clear. This isn't really about people wanting an issue with our class fixed, it's people seeing other classes getting toys and crying that they didn't get one too.

If you find yourself in a situation while questing where you'd need to use all of your defensive cooldowns more than once every three minutes then you probably deserved to get killed, and wouldn't have survived as another class either.

I have never thought our issue is killing stuff solo, nor do I think most mages think that. Hell I think a mage with Mirror images can solo just about anything outside of world bosses in the world.

What they are asking for in self sustain is not having to sit down and eat for 5-20 seconds.

While we sit and recuperate, every other class is merrily killing the next target. It simply means mages, over time, will take longer to kill the same number of mobs as another class will.

For example if every minute a mage spends 5 seconds eating, over an hour that is 5 minutes. So while mages kill 55 minutes of every hour, other classes are at 60 minutes every hour. * Numbers are not important, just demonstrating the disparity *

At the end of the day it is not going to be a huge difference. What everyone fails to remember is that no person goes non-stop. I think the best analogy is long distance driving, you are trekking along at 65 and don't stop for 5 hours, your buddy is doing 80 yet he stops and spends an hour eating and relaxing. You both end up at the same spot at the same time.

So while I understand why they want to not sit, I also just don't see it as an issue we should waste time on.

[Frost1129]

That's what I wanted to show. I don't think we need a "real" heal. It is way more fun to do things by using what you have.

Another question:
Does the Meteor/Comet Storm talent compete with Prismatic Crystal at the moment or is the Crystal much stronger? (especially for Frost)

For Fire Meteor is probably the strongest right now. It's definitely stronger than kindling - but this is mainly because combustion is so weak right now. It does less damage than an inferno blast. Not each tick. An entire combustion deals less damage than a single inferno blast. Once combustion is back to being its normal self, PC will far and away be the best.

[KurenaiXIII]

I have never thought our issue is killing stuff solo, nor do I think most mages think that. Hell I think a mage with Mirror images can solo just about anything outside of world bosses in the world.

What they are asking for in self sustain is not having to sit down and eat for 5-20 seconds.

While we sit and recuperate, every other class is merrily killing the next target. It simply means mages, over time, will take longer to kill the same number of mobs as another class will.

For example if every minute a mage spends 5 seconds eating, over an hour that is 5 minutes. So while mages kill 55 minutes of every hour, other classes are at 60 minutes every hour. * Numbers are not important, just demonstrating the disparity *

At the end of the day it is not going to be a huge difference. What everyone fails to remember is that no person goes non-stop. I think the best analogy is long distance driving, you are trekking along at 65 and don't stop for 5 hours, your buddy is doing 80 yet he stops and spends an hour eating and relaxing. You both end up at the same spot at the same time.

So while I understand why they want to not sit, I also just don't see it as an issue we should waste time on.

I agree it's not an issue that we should waste time on, but I have to disagree with the assessments. Conjured food is perfectly fine for between-combat sustainability. Most of the time it doesn't even need to be close to 'restore you to full'. People were specifically whining about what they perceived as in-combat healing buffs to other classes which... I dunno. I don't even really have words for it right now. Other than it's silly.

[Polarthief]

For Fire Meteor is probably the strongest right now. It's definitely stronger than kindling - but this is mainly because combustion is so weak right now. It does less damage than an inferno blast. Not each tick. An entire combustion deals less damage than a single inferno blast. Once combustion is back to being its normal self, PC will far and away be the best.

Lolwut. Is that why you asked Celestalon about Combustion and he just flat out ignored you? That's pretty laughable.