[Mage-WoD] Mage Beta Discussion

[Vynestra]

As an arcane mage on the ptr server, using supernova in place of LB from live makes me feel a LOT more like an arcane mage, I think arcane orb is only going to further that need, also not having to use RoP makes me feel more free.

I think I may actually FEEL like an ARCANE mage next xpac. The arcane missles animation is also a lot bigger.

[Seneca]

Snip

First of all, thank you for your insightful post, Komman! ^_*.

Said that, correct me if I am wrong, you are comparing Scorch performances as a filler to Fireball perfomances as a filler, in a vacuum, right?

To avoid another wall of text, this is what I would like to know (correct me if I am wrong):

1)Considering that yours is a straight Scorch filler vs Fireball filler comparison and considering that fire needs some love too, if, blizzard, tomorrow, buffs Fireball by 20% to bring its single target DPS more in line, doesn't your datas lose value? (the gap increases by a lot, doesn't it?)

2)Your datas imply using Scorch as a filler for the whole duration of the fight, but in a more realistic situation, you won't use Scorch that often. With the nerfed Scorch, using it to fill our rotation while moving, means straight nerfing (way more now) our DPS without any possibility of maximizing it.

Let's say everytime we have to move, our DPS goes down to 70% if we use Scorch, no matter what.

As a frost mage, on the contrary, you can maximize your damage while moving thanks to procs, cds and so on, so, through using your resources carefully, you can still keep a 100% DPS. For example, if you have to move for 2 gcd and you have 2 FoF up you don't lose any dps while moving.

As a fire mage, you nerf yourself without any possibility to maximize your damage while moving, so I think that, by default, Scorch DPS should be higher than other classes doing nothing while moving.

Another example: shadow priests can store up to 3 instant mind spikes and up to almost 2 Devouring Plague. In the best case scenario, a shadow priest can fill up to (almost) 5 gcd while moving without losing any DPS.

tl;dr of this point: if we move for 6 min no-stop, then our damage is way higher than the one of the other specs/classes, but if we consider a more realistic case, where we have to move sometimes for some seconds, Scorch extremely low DPS should not be compared with other classes doing next to nothing while moving, because they can maximize their gcds, when they have to move, by managing their resouces/cds/procs.

3)Gcds efficiency. With the nerfed Scorch every gcd loses value. If we have to move for 3 gcd, a frost mage can do FoF IL, FoF IL, Ice barrier, while a fire mage has to do Scorch, Scorch, Scorch. Let's pretend their DPS turns out to be the same, frost gcds had more value. He did as much damage as fire mage but took advantage of his last gcd to use Ice Barrier.

As a fire mage, you could use a) 2x Scorch and Ice barrier, so doing less DPS than a frost mage or b) 3x Scorch, but not being able to use Ice Barrier.

tl;dr of this point: 1 Scorch which is 10x more efficient but has 15 sec cd (10x times) is better than a spammable Scorch, because in the former, you have 9 gcds to do something else, even something else which is not damage related, in the latter, your gcds lose a lot of value.

4)The most important and claryfing point, how is fire damage while moving performance compared to the other specs/classes? In a realistic scenario, ofc. (and, imo, we should not ignore the fact other classes can fill their gcds with something which is not damage related, for example IL, IL, IB > Scorch Scorch Scorch, even though the overall damage done is the same).



I see the value of your datas and I don't want to discredit it, but, as far as I understand it, they are far from realistic cases, cases where 1) you do not spam Scorch no stop 2) you haven't anything /almost anything else to maximize your damage while moving as a fire mage, differently from the other casters.

//

Related note: as far as I remember, pyro dot doesn't stack with itself. What does this mean?

This means that, even though 1 Pyro every 18 secs accounts for 550% of SP as DPET, 2 back to back Pyros every 18 secs accounts for 808% of SP as DPET, rather than the expected 1100% of SP as DPET.

So, what I am trying to say is that, even though Scorch could generate 33% more HS Pyroblasts, this doesn't mean that pyroblast overall damage by using Scorch is 33% higher than pyroblast overall damage by using Fireball.

The fact that pyro dot DPET is enormous (it's even higher than its frontloaded damage) doesn't help too.

[Komman]

snip

1. We can assume practically anything when it comes to what Blizzard would do. I would make an equally valid assumption that if fire were to receive buffs, they would increase scorch from 25% to 30% if they were to apply 20% across the board buffs. That would just keep things as they are right now. What's your justification of assuming that they'll increase the gap as if they forgot about scorch?

2. I don't imply using Scorch as a whole duration of a fight. I'm saying that even in the absolute worst case of movement, just to magnify and show the most extreme difference we can get, they were still too close.

Yes, you can argue that if every movement required the duration of exactly 2 GCDs, and there was a perfect strategy of camping 1 of each FoF and IL proc without losing them, and that your generation rate of those procs perfectly matched the frequency of movement so you always had procs up when movement was required, THEN the Frost Mage may have a slight edge during those 2 GCDs because BF-FFB/FoF-IL > Scorch. I don't think those assumptions are valid. I also don't think that conclusion is meaningful.

The point I emphasized was that Fire Mage mobile DPS has never relied on Scorch damage. Between Pyroblast, Inferno Blast, active talents such as Living Bomb, maybe Blast Wave and Meteor in WoD, Fire has always had an arsenal of abilities within its core rotation as instant casts, and many of these (Pyro/IB) even feed into providing further procs and mobility.

3. Similar to what I said in the response to (2), you're comparing BF-FFB/FoF-IL directly to scorch spam. This is not a meaningful comparison. A more accurate comparison is "some number of banked BF-FFB/FoF-IL procs, depending on frequency of movement and rotation proc banking strategy" vs "combo of Scorch, IB, Pyro, LB and whatever other active talents". A single Pyroblast can be worth more than BF-FFB and FoF-IL combined. Is BF-FFB/FoF-IL still superior for movement? Maybe in some scenarios, such as the one I listed above. But there are many other scenarios, and this one doesn't reflect all fights. Just as you can do a simplified comparison of "FoF-IL + BF-FFB > Scorch * 3", I can make an equally valid "Scorch + Pyro + Pyro > FoF-IL + BF-FFB + nothing". There is no meaningful analysis to be done through this way.

Let's not make this implicit assumption that "Fire Mages have superior mobile DPS for any type of movement, any duration, any distance, always". The whole point of this change was to achieve more mobile DPS parity between specs. As said before, I believe that Fire needs some help in terms of overall damage. Giving it dominance in mobile damage is moving away from allowing that to happen. Right now, the obvious odd man out in terms of mobile DPS is Arcane. That is the spec that needs to be brought up to par.

4. As said before, Fire's mobile DPS performance was far too strong before the nerf. It's one of the reasons why Fire has been performing decently in Mythic testing, despite the weaker numbers. This is mostly from raid testing log samples that I've seen though, so I do not have any strong evidence supporting this. I question whether anyone outside of Blizzard has good evidence for one way or the other though.



You seem to believe that I am some sort of pure theorist that is completely removed from raiding, and fail to see realistic cases. I ask that you reconsider.

[Seneca]

1. We can assume practically anything when it comes to what Blizzard would do. I would make an equally valid assumption that if fire were to receive buffs, they would increase scorch from 25% to 30% if they were to apply 20% across the board buffs. That would just keep things as they are right now. What's your justification of assuming that they'll increase the gap as if they forgot about scorch?

In the last few patches they kept increasing Fireball (and pyroblast) damage, so we can only assume they will increase its damage, in order to increase fire DPS. But, yes, it's up to them, nothing is sure when we talk about blizzard.

2. I don't imply using Scorch as a whole duration of a fight. I'm saying that even in the absolute worst case of movement, just to magnify and show the most extreme difference we can get, they were still too close.

I see, Scorch and Fireball were close, efficiency wise. But, what about fire damage while moving compared to the other classes damage while moving?

The fact that Scorch and Fireball made us achieve almost the same DPS doesn't imply, directly, which our damage while moving is good (also, considering that fire has no any clear strength, fire damage while moving shouldn't be just good, should be better than the one of the other casters).

Yes, you can argue that if every movement required the duration of exactly 2 GCDs, and there was a perfect strategy of camping 1 of each FoF and IL proc without losing them, and that your generation rate of those procs perfectly matched the frequency of movement so you always had procs up when movement was required, THEN the Frost Mage may have a slight edge during those 2 GCDs because BF-FFB/FoF-IL > Scorch. I don't think those assumptions are valid. I also don't think that conclusion is meaningful.

Mine was just an example. Even if we are talking about 3-4 gcds of movement required, all the other casters can fill those holes with cds, procs, resources, dot refreshments and so on. They don't just run around doing nothing.

A shadow priest, for example, as I said earlier, can store up to 3 MS and almost up to 2 DP. What does this mean? This means that they can conserve 2 MS and 1 DP for when it is necessary to move (and use the third MS and the second DP in their single target rotation in order to not have stored something in excess). So, they can fill up to 3 gcd without losing any DPS.

Balance druids, let alone all the other spells, have instant Starsurges which recharge every 10sec and can stack up to 3. So, every 30sec, they can release up to 3 instant Starsurge. This mean that, even if they sit up to 2 Starsurge and use the third one to avoid losing single target DPS, they can still fill 2 gcd every 30sec while moving without losing any damage.

The examples I am bringing are not luck based. They are based on facts.

Every 10sec, balance druids can use an instant Starsurge. Every 30sec, balance druids can use 3x Starsurge.

I am not talking about best case scenarios, I am talking about the average scenarios, don't you agree?

You claim fire mages can use LB, Meteor and so on. The problem, here, is that you use them in your single target rotation. So, if you are doing it right, they won't be available when you are going to move.

The point I emphasized was that Fire Mage mobile DPS has never relied on Scorch damage.

But, then, one could ask, if fire mobile DPS has never relied on Scorch damage, being it because a) we can use Fireballs while moving etc. or b) because IB, Pyroblast, LB, etc., are the ones which account for the damage, why did they nerf Scorch damage to begin with, if it was not impactful at all?

If, as you claim, Scorch pure damage accounted for, let's say, 10% of our total damage while moving (just to make an example), considering point a and b, what did they accomplish with their nerf?

Voltaa claimed that Scorch is very rarely used, in best-cases scenario, and I agree with him, but, said that, if Scorch overall damage accounts for, for example, 2% of your total damage done in a fight, what's the point of nerfing Scorch damage in the first place?

If, Blizzard thinks fire damage while moving is extremely high, but Scorch damage is the last offender, why did they nerf it? Wasn't it better, for example, to make Scorch unable to generate Pyros, if the nerf was targeted to tone down our damage while moving (considering that Scorch damage is not impactful at all)?

I didn't get if Scorch damage was extremely high or not. Blizzard nerfed it, so we can suppose they think it was too high.

Both you and voltaa (and I agree with it), think that Scorch 1) should be rarely used to begin with 2) its damage while moving contribution is meaningless (considering point a and b too).

3. Similar to what I said in the response to (2), you're comparing BF-FFB/FoF-IL directly to scorch spam. This is not a meaningful comparison. A more accurate comparison is "some number of banked BF-FFB/FoF-IL procs, depending on frequency of movement and rotation proc banking strategy" vs "combo of Scorch, IB, Pyro, LB and whatever other active talents".

I didn't talk about BF neither I did it on point 2. I was talking about FoF IL.

My thought is simple. You can store up to 2 FoF. This means that you can "permanently" camp 1 FoF and use it while moving. This means that, theoretically, you can fill, thanks to FoF mechanic only, atleast 1 gcd while moving.

What's the best case scenario you are talking about?

Best case scenario would be if, luckily, you would have 2 FoF IL, 1 BF, your FO is up and it generates 1 FoF everytime it ticks. Something like that.

Anyway, the point is not frost mage ability to maximize its gcds while moving.

//

The point is, considering that almost all the other classes can store procs, have cds, have resources, have lots of dots to refresh, have a pet which keeps attacking no matter what, are you sure fire damage while moving isn't lower than theirs? (let alone be higher, as it should be, considering that doing damage while moving was one of fire strength).

The whole point of this change was to achieve more mobile DPS parity between specs.

What's left to fire, then? What is the aspect in which they shine? What's the point of bringing/using a fire mage if:

fire = damage
caster spec = damage + survivability + burst + etc.?

Do you think fire damage while moving should be as good as the average caster damage while moving? Honest question.

Right now, the obvious odd man out in terms of mobile DPS is Arcane. That is the spec that needs to be brought up to par.

Yeah arcane is quite immobile, I didn't write anything about it because I think noone can claim the contrary.

As said before, Fire's mobile DPS performance was far too strong before the nerf. It's one of the reasons why Fire has been performing decently in Mythic testing, despite the weaker numbers.

Are you sure the problem was Scorch rather than some overtuned talent?

You seem to believe that I am some sort of pure theorist that is completely removed from raiding, and fail to see realistic cases. I ask that you reconsider.

I didn't say you are a pure theorist. I said the infos you brought were not a mirror of reality cases. As far as I know, you can be the most realistic player on WoW. All I gathered from your posts, until now, is that you sound very polite, that's it ^_*

Anyway, time will give us answers, eventually.

[Komman]

You claim fire mages can use LB, Meteor and so on. The problem, here, is that you use them in your single target rotation. So, if you are doing it right, they won't be available when you are going to move.

It's not that you arbitrarily change your rotation for movement. When so much of your rotation is made up of instants anyway, it opens many windows during which you can just move during their casts. For example, on MOP, our high crit rate makes us spend ~45% of our time casting instants like Pyro and LB. That means that we just shuffle a few yards during every cast, and every so often something happens and we need to move (ie. Malk orb spawns on you), we just finish a Fireball cast and move while casting Pyro/LB/IB as usual.

But, then, one could ask, if fire mobile DPS has never relied on Scorch damage, being it because a) we can use Fireballs while moving etc. or b) because IB, Pyroblast, LB, etc., are the ones which account for the damage, why did they nerf Scorch damage to begin with, if it was not impactful at all?

If, as you claim, Scorch pure damage accounted for, let's say, 10% of our total damage while moving (just to make an example), considering point a and b, what did they accomplish with their nerf?

Voltaa claimed that Scorch is very rarely used, in best-cases scenario, and I agree with him, but, said that, if Scorch overall damage accounts for, for example, 2% of your total damage done in a fight, what's the point of nerfing Scorch damage in the first place?

If, Blizzard thinks fire damage while moving is extremely high, but Scorch damage is the last offender, why did they nerf it? Wasn't it better, for example, to make Scorch unable to generate Pyros, if the nerf was targeted to tone down our damage while moving (considering that Scorch damage is not impactful at all)?

I didn't get if Scorch damage was extremely high or not. Blizzard nerfed it, so we can suppose they think it was too high.

Essentially these 3 paragraphs ask the same thing: Why are we nerfing Scorch damage when it makes up for so little? The answer is rather straight forward - it's the only option! We don't have any other stationary cast time spells. So much of Fire's damage is focused into Pyro, but that really can't be touched because it's too important to the core rotation DPS, especially when stationary. And as you see, just the scorch nerf alone isn't enough - the Enhanced Pyrotechnics perk doesn't apply to Scorch, which applies a second, and in my opinion, harsher penalty than just the damage nerf. It's not a 2% nerf either. As the charts show, it's probably a 10-15% cut to overall mobile DPS. If you think about it, what else could they have done?

I've always been a heavy critic of Fire's design; more specifically, the overreliance on Pyroblast damage. Pyroblast hits too hard, happens too frequently, and benefits too much from Crit. The fact that Pyroblasts are instant also means that it heavily affects our mobility. T16H Fire Mages spend more time casting pyroblasts than Frost Mages spend casting FoF-IL and BF-FFB combined. This also leads to the spell feeling unrewarding, which is one of the core reasons why people think "Fireballs and Pyros" is boring. This is the core of the problem, but I don't think they wish to tackle it any time soon, since it requires a heavy redesign. The fact that they had no choice but to hit Scorch with a harsh nerf bat, is just another consequence of this design.

The point is, considering that almost all the other classes can store procs, have cds, have resources, have lots of dots to refresh, have a pet which keeps attacking no matter what, are you sure fire damage while moving isn't lower than theirs? (let alone be higher, as it should be, considering that doing damage while moving was one of fire strength).

I don't think we've become the weakest mobile DPS by any means. If you go next door and ask the Destro Warlocks, or the Shadow Priest spec that uses the "no DOTs, just nukes" level 100 talent, I'm sure they will have a lot of stories to tell you. Most of the other casters probably have stories to tell as well.

What's left to fire, then? What is the aspect in which they shine? What's the point of bringing/using a fire mage if:

fire = damage
caster spec = damage + survivability + burst + etc.?

Do you think fire damage while moving should be as good as the average caster damage while moving? Honest question.

I don't think "damage while moving" is what a Fire Mage should use to distinguish themselves from other casters. If anything, Hunters do a better job at that already. I don't even agree with that design either, but that's another issue that would derail the thread like you guys did earlier. I also think that Fire mobile DPS should be roughly on par with the other casters. This nerf moves towards this goal.

What should Fire Mages (Or really, any Mage spec) shine at? This question is a bit loaded - it assumes that every spec needs something that it "shines at" that no other spec in the game can, and that this justifies the existence of the class. I don't agree with that. I believe that a spec needs to be able to perform and be competitive in what they do. A good example is the MoP Arcane Mage - it doesn't excel at multidotting any better than an Aff lock does, and it doesn't "shine" in terms of single target over a Fire Mage, but it's okay. Do I think that WoD Fire Mage has reached that requirement? No, I think they need some help. But that help isn't in the form of some "niche utility", or "niche mobile DPS", or the "niche AOE cleave DPS" currently offered by overpowered Living Bomb spreading or bugged compressed-ignite super-combustions. The bandaid it needs right now is some coefficient tuning on core spells. The longer term solution would be a plan that reduces our Pyroblast-dependency.

[Qck]

This is from last night's Fire simulation of MOP live. The main point I want to draw your attention to, is that Fireball combined with the corresponding ignite still did less than 20% of overall damage. Then you include Scorch's lower cast time, increased pyro generation, and you can see why Scorch is actually considered the primary filler among Asian mages, instead of fireball.

What does this simulation look like at T14 gear levels? You know, start of the expansion, before we get enough crit to have Pyroblast procs constantly?

If we plug the old scorch into the T17(WoD) simulation what does it look like compared to Fireball as primary filler?

I think looking at the difference between the two in true end of expansion gear is wrong if we're going to discuss the DPS loss of using Scorch vs Fireball as a primary filler.

Afflocks have only been a problem in the later stages of farm and they didnt really have an impact on progress.

It's really beside the point. To see such a huge discrepancy in the output of classes is unhealthy for the game no matter what stage of the tier or expansion.

[Seneca]

It's not that you arbitrarily change your rotation for movement. When so much of your rotation is made up of instants anyway, it opens many windows during which you can just move during their casts. For example, on MOP, our high crit rate makes us spend ~45% of our time casting instants like Pyro and LB. That means that we just shuffle a few yards during every cast, and every so often something happens and we need to move (ie. Malk orb spawns on you), we just finish a Fireball cast and move while casting Pyro/LB/IB as usual.

I agree. What I am afraid of, is that fire "flexibility" is way lower than the one of the other casters, let alone reliable.

A shadow priest, for example, without appealing himself to luck, can, on average, fill up to 3 gcd every 15-20 secs.

As you say, fire can do it too, but, to a very lesser extent.

I mean, I don't feel comfortable to think "hey, I am going to move, eventually I will crit with something/will have IB up so I can fill my gcd while moving with highly effective spells".

By playing a shadow priest, for example, it is more like this "I am going to move, no problem, I have 2 Mind Spikes stored, 1 Devouring Plague stored, etc. (those are just 1 talent e 1 mechanic, not their full arsenal)

Essentially these 3 paragraphs ask the same thing: Why are we nerfing Scorch damage when it makes up for so little? The answer is rather straight forward - it's the only option!

What if Scorch damage is increased as much as it is needed, but it cannot generate HS anymore? Why should they do it? You could ask. To fix, atleast, another related problem, fire extremely binary path.

3 gcd = Scorch hit, Scorch hit, Scorch hit = 75% SP as damage.
3 gcd = Scorch crit, Scorch crit, Pyroblast crit = 1150% SP as damage :O

I've always been a heavy critic of Fire's design; more specifically, the overreliance on Pyroblast damage. Pyroblast hits too hard, happens too frequently, and benefits too much from Crit. The fact that Pyroblasts are instant also means that it heavily affects our mobility.

This is what I have been saying since ages.

Fire binary nature doesn't help to overcome/to manage their weaknesses too.

What spec has a spell which DPET is 25% of SP and another one which is 550% of SP, 22x higher?

T16H Fire Mages spend more time casting pyroblasts than Frost Mages spend casting FoF-IL and BF-FFB combined. This also leads to the spell feeling unrewarding, which is one of the core reasons why people think "Fireballs and Pyros" is boring

I know, it has been the same in other ending exps too.

The fact that they had no choice but to hit Scorch with a harsh nerf bat, is just another consequence of this design.

I agree, but I don't find it healthy, gameplay wise, let alone spot on. Scorch scales extremely well with crit, so by the end of WoD, what are they going to do? Makes so Scorch heals our target to compensate? It is 25% right now, they cannot go way lower than that. They will increase its cast time, eventually.

I don't think we've become the weakest mobile DPS by any means.

Well, considering that fire should be one of the highest if not the highest, hoping to not be the weakest is sad to say the least

If you go next door and ask the Destro Warlocks, or the Shadow Priest spec that uses the "no DOTs, just nukes" level 100 talent, I'm sure they will have a lot of stories to tell you. Most of the other casters probably have stories to tell as well.

Why should they be so masochist? I mean, if they do, intentionally, gimp themeselves, there are more important issue than their stories :P. If they choose the only talent they have not to take in the few fights where mobility is a must, I can only pray for them.

What I am more afraid of is arcane, may heavens bless it.

I don't think "damage while moving" is what a Fire Mage should use to distinguish themselves from other casters.

Well 10 years ago I thought fire was about burst and aoe (burst).

Lately, the only strength I can think of, which has not be erased from fire, is their mobility (why they shifted their design philosophy mid decade is beyond me), but hey, if they want fire mages to shine mobility wise, it's better than nothing for me, but, if they remove it too, what's left?

All mages spec could be so much more.....there's so much room for improvement. 10 years passed but for mages, especially fire, it sounds more like 1.

If anything, Hunters do a better job at that already. I don't even agree with that design either, but that's another issue that would derail the thread like you guys did earlier.

Well mine was just an example about hunters, then I was busy, came back 4-5 hours later, and two pages was filled with people talking about hunters, don't blame me ><'

I also think that Fire mobile DPS should be roughly on par with the other casters. This nerf moves towards this goal.

I am fine if fire mobile DPS is on par with the other casters if fire shines in something else.

Ofc, blizzard incompetence, so their making (potentially) fire single target DPS higher than the other specs, should not be taken into account.

What should Fire Mages (Or really, any Mage spec) shine at? This question is a bit loaded - it assumes that every spec needs something that it "shines at" that no other spec in the game can, and that this justifies the existence of the class. I don't agree with that.

But, if spec 1 = damage but spec 2 = damage + burst, CC, offhealing, what's the point of bringing/playing spec 1?

I believe that a spec needs to be able to perform and be competitive in what they do. A good example is the MoP Arcane Mage - it doesn't excel at multidotting any better than an Aff lock does, and it doesn't "shine" in terms of single target over a Fire Mage, but it's okay.

It's a bit rough about arcane. Even if it is not a true strength, (I mean, you do not have an advantage over other specs), atleast, arcane has the unique gameplay to manage their mana. As I said, they do not have any numerical advantage over the others, but it has a form of uniquess which I like (even though its a uniquess which concerns flavor more than gameplay).

Ofc, the fact that our mana is not, realistically speaking, completely manageable, is another argument ^_*, but I likes the baseline philosophy.

As far as a gameplay uniquess is concerned, I think arcane mages should be able to manage, (truly), their mana. For example, spending way more mana than usual to enter in a burst mode "which is not gated by arcane power cd", or/and spending mana to increases our survivability when/if necessary, and so on.

Do I think that WoD Fire Mage has reached that requirement? No, I think they need some help. But that help isn't in the form of some "niche utility", or "niche mobile DPS", or the "niche AOE cleave DPS"

What about burst. Fire would do as much single target/ aoe DPS as the other classes, but their burst is higher. This could make them more inclined to deal with priority targets and so on.

Another issue, which exacerbate the situation, and is related to fire lack of strength, is the fact that fire has nothing to manage. No dot gameplay, no pet gameplay, no secondary resources gameplay, no cds gameplay, no proc gameplay.

You literally spam Fireball, until, eventually, it will crit.

currently offered by overpowered Living Bomb spreading or bugged compressed-ignite super-combustions.

Yeah those doesn't help too

The bandaid it needs right now is some coefficient tuning on core spells.

One could claim that 10 years is a veeeeeeeery long time to rework a spec. I mean, 10 years are enough to create WoW 2.0, WoW 3.0 and WoW 4.0.

The longer term solution would be a plan that reduces our Pyroblast-dependency.

I agree, but it would be just the beginning, not the end of all fire problems (but still a very appreciated change, ofc).

[voltaa]

Seneca I can appreciate that you are pushing very hard at your hidden agenda to make fire OP while moving, but to go so far as saying Spriests, who have some of the worst mobility in game along with Boomkins, are in a better place than fire Mages is outrageous and I can't let someone read that and believe it's true.

Mind Spike consumes your DoT effects and anyone using DP without knowing that they have 6 seconds to cast Mind Flay uninterrupted immediately after deserves to be shot.

You can't spout things that you either made up or don't understand about classes and bring it to the table as a valid argument, it's sloppy and it's bad for the community.

You claimed that frost mobility was better than fire by claiming frost could blink to a spot and continue casting whereas fire would scorch 3x, why not blink on the fire mage? If you are going to argue to try to push something, make an argument that can stand on it's own two legs, rather than using misdirection and talking in circles to cause confusion.

[Sturmcantor]

Seneca I can appreciate that you are pushing very hard at your hidden agenda to make fire OP while moving, but to go so far as saying Spriests, who have some of the worst mobility in game along with Boomkins, are in a better place than fire Mages is outrageous and I can't let someone read that and believe it's true.

Mind Spike consumes your DoT effects and anyone using DP without knowing that they have 6 seconds to cast Mind Flay uninterrupted immediately after deserves to be shot.

You can't spout things that you either made up or don't understand about classes and bring it to the table as a valid argument, it's sloppy and it's bad for the community.

You claimed that frost mobility was better than fire by claiming frost could blink to a spot and continue casting whereas fire would scorch 3x, why not blink on the fire mage? If you are going to argue to try to push something, make an argument that can stand on it's own two legs, rather than using misdirection and talking in circles to cause confusion.

He is assuming the Shadow Priest is talented for full mobility, so has the Mind Spike proc from VT ticks talent rather than Insanity. But we can't assume Fire has taken Ice Floes for maximum mobility, because that would be relying on a non baseline functionality.

[mrgreenthump]

Yes the scorch nerf stings, but only outside of raiding really. What really annoys me though is that the Scorch nerf really doesn't change much, it only lowers dps on really heavy movement fights as Scorch was already at the very bottom of the cast priority for us. So pretty much breaks things outside of raiding to fix a raiding problem that really didn't exist in the first place(now yes.. it did exist, but impact of it might have been seen on a very small number of fights).

I think we just got to accept that Fire PvP won't work in WoD either though. Either that or they fix it when they realise it's really broken, it just seems to have too small of a following for Blizzard to care. Which is sad, as I would probably still be subbed if I had fun in PvP. Guess what am hoping now is that we can create enough pressure for Blizzard to redesign Fire for the next expansion after this.

He is assuming the Shadow Priest is talented for full mobility, so has the Mind Spike proc from VT ticks talent rather than Insanity. But we can't assume Fire has taken Ice Floes for maximum mobility, because that would be relying on a non baseline functionality.

Hmm, think your comparison misses a bit cause Fire has more than enough movement without Ice Floes on your average fight.

----

As a general Mod notice though, if you don't agree it is fine, but don't argue for the sake of arguing, there is no real gain of pressuring someone to your line of thinking, you can present your side of things and if the other side doesn't agree or makes a counterargument(that you don't agree with), well let's agree to disagree then. Else this will turn out to an argument warzone and well that is something nobody will want. Be the better person

[Seneca]

Seneca I can appreciate that you are pushing very hard at your hidden agenda to make fire OP while moving, but to go so far as saying Spriests, who have some of the worst mobility in game along with Boomkins, are in a better place than fire Mages is outrageous and I can't let someone read that and believe it's true.

Why are you so mad? What's bad about opinions?

Also, are you sure you are talking about WoD spriests and boomkins? As far as I saw, both through directly playing them and through datas, they looked/sounded very mobile.

Even if, eventually, it turns out I am wrong, what's the problem? Why are you so irritated?

Mind Spike consumes your DoT effects and anyone using DP without knowing that they have 6 seconds to cast Mind Flay uninterrupted immediately after deserves to be shot.

You can't read a sentence and ignore the next one. As Balhale told you, I was talking about 1 talent and 1 mechanic.

The point was (to make it even clearer) that, even though fire can spec into IF, LB, Meteor and so on, even other classes can spec into highly effective mobility talents.

1 shadow priest talent alone (empowered in WoD), http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=87160, makes them able to fill up to 2 gcd while moving, without losing any single target DPS, both while stationary (because it stacks up to 3) and while moving (because you can release two stored SoD Mind Spikes).

Mechanic wise, I was talking about the fact that spriests can store up to 5 shadow orbs (it's 3 in MoP). DP costs 3 SO, so they can be able to sit to 4 and, on average, take advantage of 1 DP to fill 1 gcd while moving.

If you want to bash me, (even if noone should bash anyone), atleast take your time to understand what I say. You can always ask for a clarification, if you are not able to, you know.

What hidden agenda are you talking of?

You can't spout things that you either made up or don't understand about classes and bring it to the table as a valid argument, it's sloppy and it's bad for the community.

Ironically, how Balhale pointed out too, it is what you have been doing in this reply, sadly, I must add.

You claimed that frost mobility was better than fire by claiming frost could blink to a spot and continue casting whereas fire would scorch 3x, why not blink on the fire mage? If you are going to argue to try to push something, make an argument that can stand on it's own two legs, rather than using misdirection and talking in circles to cause confusion.

The suggestion I can give you is, take your time, make your anger chill, and, read again my last posts with a more open mind, when your eyes are not blinded by (groundless ->) anger.

Yes the scorch nerf stings, but only outside of raiding really. What really annoys me though is that the Scorch nerf really doesn't change much, it only lowers dps on really heavy movement fights as Scorch was already at the very bottom of the cast priority for us. So pretty much breaks things outside of raiding to fix a raiding problem that really didn't exist in the first place(now yes.. it did exist, but impact of it might have been seen on a very small number of fights).

This summarizes quite a lot of points.

As a general Mod notice though, if you don't agree it is fine, but don't argue for the sake of arguing, there is no real gain of pressuring someone to your line of thinking, you can present your side of things and if the other side doesn't agree or makes a counterargument(that you don't agree with), well let's agree to disagree then. Else this will turn out to an argument warzone and well that is something nobody will want. Be the better person

I agree. One could say moderators should be an example for all the other members. One could say, also, that it should be easier to politely speaking with a moderator. It should be a pleasure, theoretically speaking (and, as a necessary off-topic, it is a pleasure to talk/argue with you, mrgreenthump, politeness and smartness overflow from your posts, as always).

[Polarthief]

Well, PC got nerfed for Frost back down to 30% again, and they "nerfed" our 5% Armor Class bonus to require cloth.

So, y'know, another typical patch where we get no real changes besides one that they simply reverted.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Well, PC got nerfed for Frost back down to 30% again

Expected+needed, however.

Last sims I saw with set bonuses, Frost was over 40.5k.

Still expecting mana tuning for Arc to make Evocation definitely worth it, and Comet Storm brought up a bit. I'd really like the Novas to reduce CD via haste, but that's unlikely.

[Polarthief]

Expected+needed, however.

Oh I wasn't denying this, I was just hoping CS and the left L100 talents got some love. (And maybe the novas, too)

[Deleted]

Oh I wasn't denying this, I was just hoping CS and the left L100 talents got some love. (And maybe the novas, too)

Just did short tests, because I don't have much time atm, but I played a bit with nerfed Crystal and Comet Storm. With and without T17 they seemed to be close to each other. The difference wasn't more than 100-300 DPS for me. With T17 I was around 25k, without T17 around 22,5k with both talents. 3 Minute fights on unkillable dummy in Shattrath with raidbuffs, but without Time Warp.
But well, I don't know if I messed up something totally ^^"

[Qck]

Expected+needed, however.

Last sims I saw with set bonuses, Frost was over 40.5k.

Still expecting mana tuning for Arc to make Evocation definitely worth it, and Comet Storm brought up a bit. I'd really like the Novas to reduce CD via haste, but that's unlikely.

Betting Frost Bomb sees another slight reduction before we hit live as well.

[Polarthief]

Just did short tests, because I don't have much time atm, but I played a bit with nerfed Crystal and Comet Storm. With and without T17 they seemed to be close to each other. The difference wasn't more than 100-300 DPS for me. With T17 I was around 25k, without T17 around 22,5k with both talents. 3 Minute fights on unkillable dummy in Shattrath with raidbuffs, but without Time Warp.
But well, I don't know if I messed up something totally ^^"

Was the nerf of cleaving on/off the crystal that bad for Frost?

Still expecting mana tuning for Arc to make Evocation definitely worth it, and Comet Storm brought up a bit. I'd really like the Novas to reduce CD via haste, but that's unlikely.

If Novas and CS are brought up, and Bomb brought down, I will be happy. I really like IN/SN over FB/NT, though for Fire, I'll pick LB (when I actually go Fire, which will be unlikely).

[gallamann]

I have got to say, I think sometimes Blizzard makes a "buff" to mask a "nerf", give it a week or two and then revert the "buff" just to keep the masses of asses on a happy plane. PC is a perfect example, remove the cleave, bump the damage... 1.5 weeks later revert the damage back.

But wait it gets even better See they wil have to adjust Frost Bomb sooner or later; and PC for all mage specs. Figure about a month or so into WoD you will see both those hit, meaning that initial removal of Frost cleave on PC was not needed, however it will never be returned.

Talk about a prefect setup to remove PC cleave for Frost with just about zero community impact!

[Polarthief]

Talk about a prefect setup to remove PC cleave for Frost with just about zero community impact!

I'd say the biggest hit was PC for Fire prior to 4P.

Regardless, I wish they'd get the hell off PC and get on FB, Novas, CS, and left L100.

[gallamann]

I'd say the biggest hit was PC for Fire prior to 4P.

Regardless, I wish they'd get the hell off PC and get on FB, Novas, CS, and left L100.

Polar, they have bigger fish to fry You can see from last 3-4 sets of patches, they got nada for Mages... All those things they can wait until the 1st or 2nd hot fix patch after WoD releases