1. #1081
    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    it doesn't fucking matter how much damage execute does if the rotation is balanced around it.
    This is plain wrong for both PvE and PvP, imho.

    PvE: If the boss hits the tank for 2 damage every turn that's predictable and you can play either around that or along that, saving a lot of mana in the process. And given the right/wrong expansion that can be an important factor. If the boss hits your tank for so much that it's close to alive:death switching status you must start pumping heals into him no matter what - while stopcasting might help in that situation it depends on the boss swing timer and other fight mechanics. Ever bothered with patchwerk? That's a perfect example for this. Or Baleroc during decimation blade.

    PvP: if i can bring you to 50% health with my toothpick, pop everything and you die in the next two globals that's not something everyone can play around at all times and that's why several classes/speccs are dreaded.

    Consistent, predictable damage almost never kills you and your team in any situation, it's when something happens that you don't have control of (take Spoils when your healer gets the bomb back to back and you lack hybrids).

    You might want to raise the "but i don't pvp, i don't care" flag but i'd call you ignorant. Having burst is just as important for raiding as it is for all other occassions. You can rest between waves of enemies, but you'll have to kill them ASAP when they spawn so they don't overwhelm you with their magic. That's not an unlikeable situation and argueable already implemented in boths dungeons and raids (ie: bladestorm on Garrosh mindcontrol).

    So if they'd design our specc about ms, autoattack, deep wounds, slam and colossus all hitting for 1 and execute hitting for 9 it would probably be balanced in a nutshell but it's unhealable in a certain environments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    SMF v TG. SMF, since it has a flat percentage damage increase gains more from AP based attacks, EG DR, EX, HL.
    AP based attacks also offered some unique playstyles back then like swapping from one twohander to two onehander or even using two grey but super quick dagger before rage normalisation. Good times!
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2014-06-13 at 06:00 AM.

  2. #1082
    I come back from being afk for a while, and see you guys are writing poems and shit. What the hell, guys......

  3. #1083
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    I come back from being afk for a while, and see you guys are writing poems and shit. What the hell, guys......
    Let me have a bash:

    Ode to a Warrior

    ‘Twas the night before patching,
    The warriors were still.
    They lay in bed dreaming,
    Of the mages they’ll kill.

    But then the patch landed,
    And warriors were sad.
    “This isn’t just tuning,
    The class has gone bad!”

    So they took to the forums,
    To make their point clear.
    “Blizz, we need fixes,
    Our voice you must hear!”

    “What happened to shield-play,
    Or Unrelenting Assault?
    We can’t leap small herbs,
    And it isn’t our fault!”

    “What the fuck is with Death Wish,
    Is it Fury or Arms?
    It’s gone now completely?
    You’re immune to its charms?”

    “We’re still getting charge-jumped,
    Colossus Smash stunk.
    Where’s Retaliation?
    Wait… It’s now on a monk?!”

    “Those rogues, they be stealthing,
    And we don’t have Rend.
    They’ve reset the fight?
    But our health’s at its end!”

    And Blizz, they responded,
    “We’re hearing your plea!
    Your damage is fine,
    Even in PvP!”

    But warriors weren’t happy,
    Not so easy ignored.
    “It’s not just about damage!”
    They loudly implored.

    “It’s about depth of gameplay,
    The skill ceiling and floor.
    Just mindlessly deepsing,
    Is a terrible bore.”

    “Once we were hybrids,
    With utility prime.
    Now we’re just 3-minute cooldowns,
    You’re vision’s a crime!”

    But Blizz were unmoved,
    “This is all our intent.
    In six-second windows,
    Shall your rage all be spent.”

    “We know you liked stances,
    Thought Overpower was cool.
    But we are the experts,
    We’re not being cruel!”

    So warriors were saddened,
    Depth just rubbed off the page.
    And Blizz, they returned,
    To overbuffing the mage.

  4. #1084
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    I come back from being afk for a while, and see you guys are writing poems and shit. What the hell, guys......
    cyclonus has ruined everything

  5. #1085
    High Overlord jadedfuture's Avatar
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    I seriously hope the removal of Overpower doesn't kill Arms' fast-paced style. I just feel like it'd be too.. Slow without it.
    Subsequent, Emerald Dream
    Rogue master race, as of now, since Warrior is completely retarded.
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  6. #1086
    They need to bring overpower back!

  7. #1087
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    Consistent, predictable damage almost never kills you and your team in any situation, it's when something happens that you don't have control of (take Spoils when your healer gets the bomb back to back and you lack hybrids).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attrition_warfare

    in a world where mana is actually finite, (aka the good expansions this game has had) boring, predictable damage certainly will kill the other team. this discussion goes straight to the core of changes in gameplay mechanics since wrath of the lich king and reinforces a lot of my criticisms with the direction the game is going.

    in the original design of the game, warriors and rogues were limited by their resources in the short term, (you could only generate so much in a given time period) but infinite over the course of the fight. this made us excel at sustained dps, but not so much at burst.

    in the original design of the game, casters and healers were limited by their resources (mana) in the long term, but for the short term they could spam their highest damage/healing moves. this meant they were good for short periods but they needed to recharge at some point. if you can hold out long enough for them to recharge, you'll catch up on damage (whether on dps meters or when you're trying to kill them).

    since WoTLK, mana is basically not a resource. that had drastic effects on the checks and balances of the game, including the one you've just mentioned. in a world where every class has unlimited resources and can spam heals/damage abilities forever, the only way to kill someone is to nuke them down in 3 seconds or land a 21 second cc chain.

    also one more thing: you say having burst is important for raiding. that's totally true, but if every fucking class has burst and every class has sustained aoe and every class has burst aoe and every class can cleave, it takes a lot away from the individuality of the classes and it makes the game worse.

    also one more thing again: these poems are fabulous!!!!!!
    Last edited by Eranthe; 2014-06-13 at 01:56 PM.


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  8. #1088
    Blademaster Enyasi's Avatar
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    I got some ideas for Fury today. Nothing special, and I don't claim they will be the solution, but something we can discuss, as we are happy making poems right now.

    First one is to solve the Enrage being too short for some mechanics (read Bladestorm) and give other secundary some meaning: make white hits multistrikes increase Enrage by 0.5~1 sec. I'm tossing some random time, so don't think hard on it. This can potentially solve the Enrage problem with Bladestorm while giving multistrike AND haste meaning.

    The other one was make Enrage some kind of mechanic we have more control over, like monk's beer. However, this would mean changing how Fury plays right now. I though something in the lines of making some Fury's skills stacking a buff, that we would use to proc Enrage. The more stacks, more the time, to an extent.

    I like part of Fury's mechanic right now, but it's only optimal with high-end gear.
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  9. #1089
    Idea for fury I was pushing over on the official forums:

    Fury gains a stacking buff (we'll call it Bloodrage), the stacks last 2 minutes, clear at the start of combat, and stacks up to 20 (much like Monk's TEB). You gain 1 stack for every X rage gained (somewhere between 20 and 30 would probably be best). Fury gains a new button that lets you consume 5 stacks to become Enraged. If you have more than 5 stacks available, you also gain a buff to either Haste or Multistrike (or both) that consumes 1 stack of Bloodrage per second. Hitting the button again cancels the buff to conserve stacks.


    So at low crit levels this serves as a stopgap to help fill in holes in Fury's rotation and protect against RNG. At higher crit levels it acts as a cooldown to make you attack more, feeling more furious. Ideally the buff and the enrage would be separate buttons, but with them trying to reduce button bloat I don't see that being feasible. But the core idea of giving fury some RNG protection in a way that provides some interesting resource management I think is a good one.

  10. #1090
    Quote Originally Posted by Enyasi View Post
    I got some ideas for Fury today. Nothing special, and I don't claim they will be the solution, but something we can discuss, as we are happy making poems right now.

    First one is to solve the Enrage being too short for some mechanics (read Bladestorm) and give other secundary some meaning: make white hits multistrikes increase Enrage by 0.5~1 sec. I'm tossing some random time, so don't think hard on it. This can potentially solve the Enrage problem with Bladestorm while giving multistrike AND haste meaning.

    The other one was make Enrage some kind of mechanic we have more control over, like monk's beer. However, this would mean changing how Fury plays right now. I though something in the lines of making some Fury's skills stacking a buff, that we would use to proc Enrage. The more stacks, more the time, to an extent.

    I like part of Fury's mechanic right now, but it's only optimal with high-end gear.
    This is a pretty interesting idea. I feel like bloodthirst should also have say a 50% chance to proc a raging blow charge on non crits to smooth out the rotation.
    It might also be interesting if every time you enraged it added 6 seconds to your buff instead of just resetting it to 6 seconds.
    It leaves crit as still an integral part of the spec, but not the end all be all of the spec.

    In my mind I see an option for both specs that I think would work, and make the playstyle fun and enjoyable at all gear levels.

    For fury:

    1. I like the multistrike idea, or enrage being additive as opposed to refreshed. But basically enrage should be more manageable.
    2. Give non crit bloodthirsts a chance to proc raging blow, I don't think making it a guaranteed proc all the time is the way to go

    For arms:

    1. Bring back overpower, let it have a chance to proc off of slam hits
    2. Overpower - scale with mastery, hit a little harder than slam, generate 10 rage, can proc enrage, 1 sec gcd, unavoidable, still procs off dodges
    3. Sudden death, either let it scale with mastery and let mortal strike also proc it. Or just give it a flat buff and let mortal strike proc it. I think the mastery is more interesting.
    Last edited by Artunias; 2014-06-13 at 03:55 PM.

  11. #1091
    NO FLAT OUT NO!!! no more stacking no more proc bases gameplay no more dependents on crit new suggestion:

    new fury talent or baseline idc

    your raging blow now usable all the time but the damage outside enrage scale down by 20%
    your wild stike get replaced by new/improved heroic strike heroic strike now deal 180% dmg and have 30% chance to enrage you
    your meat cleaver being replace by enrage ON USE 30sec cooldown also whirlwind does 50% more dmg
    your whirlwind cost 70 rage but increase all dmg done by 10% during enrage whirlwind is free

    btw for the love of god redesign fury raging blow sound for a bone crack or a chop

    also forgot new cs glyph your mastery: unshackled fury decrease by 6% but cs is now passive and baypass 50%

    (keep in mind that number can be changed refer to the basic idea)
    Last edited by Lightup; 2014-06-13 at 04:47 PM.

  12. #1092
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightup View Post
    NO FLAT OUT NO!!! no more stacking no more proc bases gameplay no more dependents on crit new suggestion:

    new fury talent or baseline idc

    your raging blow now usable all the time but the damage outside enrage scale down by 20%
    your wild stike get replaced by new/improved heroic strike heroic strike now deal 180% dmg and have 30% chance to enrage you

    your meat cleaver being replace by enrage ON USE 30sec cooldown
    your whirlwind cost 70 rage but increase your dmg by 10% during enrage whirlwind is free

    btw for the love of god redesign fury raging blow sound for a bone crack or a chop
    the bolded parts, i like the general idea with a few tweaks, the other stuff, i dunno. i wouldn't want to give up meat cleaver unless they put some other (hopefully more fluid) aoe in instead of it.


    If you want to talk to me about wow theorycrafting or anything really: Eranthe#1639

  13. #1093
    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    the bolded parts, i like the general idea with a few tweaks, the other stuff, i dunno. i wouldn't want to give up meat cleaver unless they put some other (hopefully more fluid) aoe in instead of it.
    I dunno, I feel like the proc based is currently what makes fury exciting. It just needs a little less rng/crit dependency. But those suggestions basically remove any kind of reactionary gameplay and make it a baseline predictable boring rotation I would feel. There are plenty of classes that offer that if you want that playstyle, I've always enjoyed warrior because it's not.

    But I completely agree that style has frustrations, but I still think I'd prefer it over a totally predictable style of play.

  14. #1094
    The Patient
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    This is how some of us feel about doing everything within a window:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBnGe9HDGBI#t=198

  15. #1095
    Quote Originally Posted by Artunias View Post
    I dunno, I feel like the proc based is currently what makes fury exciting. It just needs a little less rng/crit dependency. But those suggestions basically remove any kind of reactionary gameplay and make it a baseline predictable boring rotation I would feel. There are plenty of classes that offer that if you want that playstyle, I've always enjoyed warrior because it's not.

    But I completely agree that style has frustrations, but I still think I'd prefer it over a totally predictable style of play.
    well let me blow your mind difficult not alweys equal fun BABOOM
    its boring if you don't have a choice every once in a while but overall you don't what to track everything all the time calculate your gcd, procs stacks you wanna enjoy the encounter setup your own gameplay

  16. #1096
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightup View Post
    well let me blow your mind difficult not alweys equal fun BABOOM
    its boring if you don't have a choice every once in a while but overall you don't what to track everything all the time calculate your gcd, procs stacks you wanna enjoy the encounter setup your own gameplay
    What in the world are u talking about.

  17. #1097
    Or you could make it simple, bt always give 1 rb, if bt crits tho you get mastery up and maybe a 2nd rb. Problem solved.
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  18. #1098
    Quote Originally Posted by Kostattoo View Post
    Or you could make it simple, bt always give 1 rb, if bt crits tho you get mastery up and maybe a 2nd rb. Problem solved.
    If they did that they would definitely have to nerf raging blow damage when not enraged by 20-30%, and that might be fine.

  19. #1099
    Number tuning is the least of the problem, that comes at the end. But being able to play fury without getting gimped by low crit isn't even tho the new bt helps. Is that hey you get to play fury properly with rb, but when your bt crits you get the extra benefit/awesomeness. Gets the whole "if i don't bt-crit i am screwed" away.
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  20. #1100
    Dragon Roar’s damage is no longer reduced when hitting more than 1 target.
    Omg yes. Finally!

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