1. #1321
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Really need to stop complaining over numbers. They mean nothing at this point, as it has been stated multiple times that there are still numerous revisions to come with regards to tuning damage.
    This doesn't just mean spell coefficients, this includes cooldowns as well.

    What should be discussed right now is the relationship between abilities, how rotations work, what does and doesn't and players feelings towards them. Not a single person has argued that Reck should stay as low as it is, every single post has agreed it needs a buff. Two pages is plenty, move on to the next subject please!
    you are like this guy who always say don't worry guys it alpha
    it change because of feedback
    the problem is not the number it a crit chance ability we are the only class with crit chance ability rather than flat out dps increase

  2. #1322
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightup View Post
    you are like this guy who always say don't worry guys it alpha
    it change because of feedback
    the problem is not the number it a crit chance ability we are the only class with crit chance ability rather than flat out dps increase
    Dark soul for destro warlocks is one.

  3. #1323
    Quote Originally Posted by Requiel View Post
    Dark soul for destro warlocks is one.
    Not entirely comparable since chaos bolt's damage scales with crit chance as well as mastery.

  4. #1324
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightup View Post
    you are like this guy who always say don't worry guys it alpha
    it change because of feedback
    the problem is not the number it a crit chance ability we are the only class with crit chance ability rather than flat out dps increase
    Crit chance = flat damage increase for fury warriors

  5. #1325
    Quote Originally Posted by Skook View Post
    Anyone think this will be a moderate damage boost when it comes to Fury? PVE & PVP.... Curious.
    Maybe I'm too tired/too dumb but what exactly (if anything) would this change in comparison to PVE? We always cap our expertise which makes any roll chance (assuming we're behind the boss) irrelevant. In PVP it still won't mean much from what it does now since from what I can tell from that paragraph it's all already based on whether or not the MH connects, with just SB currently having a not guaranteed hit if the MH does connect.

  6. #1326
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeroun View Post
    Crit chance = flat damage increase for fury warriors
    not really ... mastery = flat damage for fury ... but only if enrage would be guaranteed for the duration (which was smth i suggested like 2 pages ago... some sort of improved enrage effect during reck)

    for the clarification on expertise: it doesnt change anything really, as nobody runs around without the cap in pve ... as for pvp, i dont think it will change anything there either.

  7. #1327
    Quote Originally Posted by Jalopy View Post
    Maybe I'm too tired/too dumb but what exactly (if anything) would this change in comparison to PVE? We always cap our expertise which makes any roll chance (assuming we're behind the boss) irrelevant. In PVP it still won't mean much from what it does now since from what I can tell from that paragraph it's all already based on whether or not the MH connects, with just SB currently having a not guaranteed hit if the MH does connect.
    No it was probably me being dumb tbh, I play Arms PVP so I'm not 100% clued up on current Fury...
    I wasn't refering to the hit chance I know that doesn't make a difference... it was the off hand execute hit? That's basically 2 Execute hits for 1 GCD? As apose to 1 MH Execute Hit per GCD? .....
    ..... I may be very wrong here as I said I'm not sure on Fury spec and I might of miss read the change tbh, just wondering if anyone could clarify for me.

    Execute, Raging Blow, and Storm Bolt will work like this: Perform the Mainhand hit roll. If successful, also fire the Offhand attack, which always hits. (Same as now for RB, different for SB, new for Ex)
    Is that "offhand attack" just an off hand attack or an Off hand Execute attack. The wording of the post confused me as he compared it to current Raging Blow which ofc connects with both MH and OH... ty in advance

  8. #1328
    Stood in the Fire Exhil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skook View Post
    No it was probably me being dumb tbh, I play Arms PVP so I'm not 100% clued up on current Fury...
    I wasn't refering to the hit chance I know that doesn't make a difference... it was the off hand execute hit? That's basically 2 Execute hits for 1 GCD? As apose to 1 MH Execute Hit per GCD? .....
    ..... I may be very wrong here as I said I'm not sure on Fury spec and I might of miss read the change tbh, just wondering if anyone could clarify for me.



    Is that "offhand attack" just an off hand attack or an Off hand Execute attack. The wording of the post confused me as he compared it to current Raging Blow which ofc connects with both MH and OH... ty in advance
    In Warlords they're cutting some of Fury's autoattack damage and moving it to Execute, and Fury gets an offhand Execute attack, means it might actually start to compete with Raging Blow again, or just be better.
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  9. #1329
    Quote Originally Posted by Exhil View Post
    In Warlords they're cutting some of Fury's autoattack damage and moving it to Execute, and Fury gets an offhand Execute attack, means it might actually start to compete with Raging Blow again, or just be better.
    Ah awesome thanks for clearing that up for me!
    Here's to hoping it only gets better.

  10. #1330
    Pit Lord Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightup View Post
    you are like this guy who always say don't worry guys it alpha
    it change because of feedback
    the problem is not the number it a crit chance ability we are the only class with crit chance ability rather than flat out dps increase
    Crit Chance is a number. They could just as easily decide to buff it because the current nerf is too hard. We had that same Crit Chance ability for a long time now, and in what world do you think an increased critical chance does not equal a flat out DPS increase? Sure the variable is larger because it is a chance, but it is still a mathematical increase. You realize what the actual chances of not getting crits with all your abilities are? A crit cooldown instead of giving every class a straight DPS cooldown adds variance to the game. This could be circled right back to that whole argument about homogenizing the game if everyone just got a flat 20% damage cd.

    This was rhetorical, please do not respond. I honestly cannot stand reading your posts. Try putting the smallest amount of effort into typing like something that isn't a five year old with 'My First MacBook' and then return.

  11. #1331
    WTB this new iteration of arms Celastalon tweeted about.

    Also exploring this idea of recklessness and maybe having a different cooldown entirely for arms.

    Fury - Recklessness - Your next 3 bloodthirst are guaranteed crit and do 30% increased damage. 1.5 minute cooldown.
    Arms - Deadly Calm - Your next 3 mortal strikes will benefit from mastery, generate an additional 10 rage, and reduce the cost of your next execute by 15(or 30?) rage. 1.5 minute cooldown.

    I still like the idea of removing enrage from arms, and balancing the spec around that. And make Avatar a competitive choice, at least for single target if nothing else.

    Avatar idea:

    Make it suppress all root/snares for 6 seconds (make it competitive with Bladestorm in PvP) and reduce the cooldown. Probably 2 minutes as opposed to 3 minutes and I want to feel like that should bring it up to par.

    Alternatively 2 minutes might be too much, and to make it less effective in PvP (as I see that being the bigger concern) maybe it should be every 30 rage spent while Avatar is active extends the duration by 1 second and leave the cooldown at 3 minutes (numbers are just whatever obviously)
    Last edited by Artunias; 2014-06-18 at 10:46 PM.

  12. #1332
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeroun View Post
    Crit chance = flat damage increase for fury warriors
    Well, no; no, it's not. I'm sure one of the number crunchers can correct me if I'm wrong, but the problem with Recklessness is that the added critical strike chance may not actually get any critical strikes. An additional 15% is very little when our base chance is in and around 15%, as it's still only mathematically one in three attacks that will critically strike (save Bloodthirst with its extra 30%, something else I think that sucks).

    That's always been my complaint with it. Having a higher critical strike chance means the added percentage becomes more meaningful, but also means that you'd be more likely to get a "passive" critical strike without Recklessness being up... So it's hard to establish whether Recklessness has netted you more than you'd have got otherwise.

    Ultimately, this is why people are complaining about it. A three-minute refresh on an abnormally weak DPS cooldown seems like it's being punished twice. Hell, I'd argue that you could easily buff it to 25% extra critical strike chance on a two-minute cooldown and it still wouldn't be too strong. This is probably the point Archimtiros is trying to make about it, it can be retuned to not be quite as terrible as it currently is. That said, and while I also accept we don't want yet more homogenization, I really think Recklessness needs rethought from its current form.

    Personally, I don't think its tuning is the problem. I think its design is the problem. Its original incarnation of a set number of guaranteed critical strikes was, to me, infinitely better... And still not particularly good. Personally, I'd like to see it do something like guarantee critical strikes for 10 seconds but every swing will still be rolled for a critical strike as normal and, for those swings that are, an added percentage (maybe modified by mastery) of critical damage gets added.

    Not sure if that's doable technically, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Artunias View Post
    WTB this new iteration of arms Celastalon tweeted about.

    Also exploring this idea of recklessness and maybe having a different cooldown entirely for arms.

    Fury - Recklessness - Your next 3 bloodthirst are guaranteed crit and do 30% increased damage. 1.5 minute cooldown.
    Arms - Deadly Calm - Your next 3 mortal strikes will benefit from mastery and generate an additional 10 rage. 1.5 minute cooldown.

    I still like the idea of removing enrage from arms, and balancing the spec around that. And make Avatar a competitive choice, at least for single target if nothing else.

    Avatar idea:

    Make it suppress all root/snares for 6 seconds (make it competitive with Bladestorm in PvP) and reduce the cooldown. Probably 2 minutes as opposed to 3 minutes and I want to feel like that should bring it up to par.

    Alternatively 2 minutes might be too much, and to make it less effective in PvP (as I see that being the bigger concern) maybe it should be every 30 rage spent while Avatar is active extends the duration by 1 second and leave the cooldown at 3 minutes (numbers are just whatever obviously)
    I admit, Recklessness never felt "right" to me as an Arms cooldown... But your Deadly Calm suggestion looks pretty underwhelming to me. I'd prefer they just moved Avatar to baseline, with a two-minute cooldown, and were done with it.

  13. #1333
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I admit, Recklessness never felt "right" to me as an Arms cooldown... But your Deadly Calm suggestion looks pretty underwhelming to me. I'd prefer they just moved Avatar to baseline, with a two-minute cooldown, and were done with it.
    Might as well go all the way and just rename it to Death Wish, and then people will be happy we got an old ability back

  14. #1334
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I admit, Recklessness never felt "right" to me as an Arms cooldown... But your Deadly Calm suggestion looks pretty underwhelming to me. I'd prefer they just moved Avatar to baseline, with a two-minute cooldown, and were done with it.
    It would make mortal strike hit pretty dang hard, and the other goal was to make execute more useable with additional rage. But I agree it might still be lackluster. If those 3 mortal strikes also reduced the rage cost of your next execute by 15 or 30, how would you feel about it?

  15. #1335
    Quote Originally Posted by Artunias View Post
    It would make mortal strike hit pretty dang hard, and the other goal was to make execute more useable with additional rage. But I agree it might still be lackluster. If those 3 mortal strikes also reduced the rage cost of your next execute by 15 or 30, how would you feel about it?
    I honestly didn't care for the original deadly calm, and would rather see Avatar or Bloodbath as a unique Arms cooldown than see Deadly Calm come back.

  16. #1336
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondwind View Post
    I honestly didn't care for the original deadly calm, and would rather see Avatar or Bloodbath as a unique Arms cooldown than see Deadly Calm come back.
    I think the problem with that is then you have to come up with a talent that can be useful for all 3 specs, and I can't say I have a good suggestion that's not just lawlz aoe. I feel like if Avatar was better most of that tier would be situational/preference yet all still on a similar theme of enhanced damage.

  17. #1337
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzel View Post
    Might as well go all the way and just rename it to Death Wish, and then people will be happy we got an old ability back
    Haha, yeah - then give it to Arms halfway through the expansion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Artunias View Post
    It would make mortal strike hit pretty dang hard, and the other goal was to make execute more useable with additional rage. But I agree it might still be lackluster. If those 3 mortal strikes also reduced the rage cost of your next execute by 15 or 30, how would you feel about it?
    If it were dropped to a one-minute cooldown, and gave us better access to Execute somehow, then I'd probably like it. That'd have significant issues in PvP, however, which is why I can't see it happening.

  18. #1338
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Well, no; no, it's not. I'm sure one of the number crunchers can correct me if I'm wrong, but the problem with Recklessness is that the added critical strike chance may not actually get any critical strikes. An additional 15% is very little when our base chance is in and around 15%, as it's still only mathematically one in three attacks that will critically strike (save Bloodthirst with its extra 30%, something else I think that sucks).

    That's always been my complaint with it. Having a higher critical strike chance means the added percentage becomes more meaningful, but also means that you'd be more likely to get a "passive" critical strike without Recklessness being up... So it's hard to establish whether Recklessness has netted you more than you'd have got otherwise.

    Ultimately, this is why people are complaining about it. A three-minute refresh on an abnormally weak DPS cooldown seems like it's being punished twice. Hell, I'd argue that you could easily buff it to 25% extra critical strike chance on a two-minute cooldown and it still wouldn't be too strong. This is probably the point Archimtiros is trying to make about it, it can be retuned to not be quite as terrible as it currently is. That said, and while I also accept we don't want yet more homogenization, I really think Recklessness needs rethought from its current form.
    so on average crit % increase your overall damage by the %, so 15% crit = 15% extra damage (this applies to every class). the X% crit on recklessness does not get any better or worse the more crit you have, 15% more chance to crit is 15% more chance to crit. The cool down isn't weak, with a 20% base chance to crit, recklessness on average is a 22% damage increase (Flat), then add on the extra raging blows, more enrage uptime etc.
    Last edited by Requiel; 2014-06-18 at 11:33 PM.

  19. #1339
    Quote Originally Posted by Requiel View Post
    so on average crit % increase your overall damage by the %, so 15% crit = 15% extra damage (this applies to every class). the X% crit on recklessness does get any better or worse the more crit you have, 15% more chance to crit is 15% more chance to crit. The cool down isn't weak, with a 20% base chance to crit, recklessness on average is a 22% damage increase (Flat), then add on the extra raging blows, more enrage uptime etc.
    You're talking about an average. This is why I dislike speaking to you people.

    You're focusing on THOUSANDS (even tens of thousands) of iterations (resulting in a refined average). You aren't focusing on THAT ONE PULL. And what's doubly ironic is that some of you are in progression raiding guilds - you should know by now that each and every pull matters, especially when you're failing primarily because of a lack of pure throughput. Therein lies the problem with Fury - it is inconsistent at low gear levels, and this has remained largely unfixed. Recklessness is simply another ability that follows the same pattern of inept design.

    Yes, Recklessness will "average out" to a damage increase. Nobody at all is arguing against that. What they are saying, and what has been said repeatedly before, is that there's a huge difference between the average and your performance per-pull.

    A class/spec that fluctuates wildly per pull, regardless of the player's skill level, isn't something you want to bring to progression raiding. You want consistent numbers produced by your raiders so that you can take advantage of every single opportunity. If Fury is posting 100k DPS on one attempt, and then 70k the next few, everything else being equal - then that's just not consistent enough. A skilled player should expect to hit certain numbers, and for that range of numbers to be fairly small. An ability, or a spec, designed so heavily skewed towards RNG is a liability. Moreover, it contributes to a general feeling of discontent and a complete disconnect between effort and reward. If I put extreme effort towards producing high DPS, then that should be something I can consistently rely upon. It should not be something subject to extreme RNG - something outside of the player's control.

    Fact is, Recklessness as an ability most definitely has a chance to do absolutely nothing at all per pull. Recklessness was much better when it guaranteed critical hits, something I believe it should do again. As it stands, it is a microcosm of the design failure that is pure RNG.

    What most players experience isn't an "average". They aren't looking at averages, and they don't care. Your average stats mean nothing when they just experienced the worst RNG of their life on that last pull. There is nothing more infuriating than playing your heart out and simply not being rewarded for that effort. Whether we're talking about Recklessness, or Fury, we're talking about a disconnect between effort and reward. We don't kill bosses or accomplish tasks through average DPS in any part of this game. As far as I'm concerned, it is irrelevant to the greater concern regarding the high degree of variability inherent when RNG mechanics dominate your spec. I guarantee not a single one of you has ever looked at a ranking warrior's average DPS over the past 7 months. You all look at one thing - what happened on the kill.

    It's time to stop being stupid.
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  20. #1340
    Fatalfuror, you simply hate RNG. The developers want Fury to have a degree of RNG. The state of fury on live is not what they intend the default for fury to be. If you want to remove as much randomness as possible, then Fury really isn't the spec you should be playing.

    Not saying that current reck is okay. It's really pretty awful. But your constant railing against Fury's direction throughout all of the last expansion just indicates to me that you are playing a spec that isn't being designed to your tastes. Eventually you're going to either need to get used to that, or change to something better suited to you.

    so on average crit % increase your overall damage by the %, so 15% crit = 15% extra damage (this applies to every class). the X% crit on recklessness does not get any better or worse the more crit you have, 15% more chance to crit is 15% more chance to crit. The cool down isn't weak, with a 20% base chance to crit, recklessness on average is a 22% damage increase (Flat), then add on the extra raging blows, more enrage uptime etc.
    For what it's worth, this is an incredibly oversimplified and frankly wrong way to look at it. 15% crit = 15% extra damage... if you had 0% crit to start with, and no mechanics tying into crit. But nobody has 0% base crit.

    Starting with a 5% base crit, if you add 15% crit, that translates into an increase of 14.2% extra damage.

    On the other hand, if you had 20% base crit (like the agi classes for example), 15% additional crit translates into 12.5% extra damage.

    But it gets more complicated when you look at a spec like Fury, where crit is doubled by BT (so now you have to factor in that extra damage), BT and CS crits enrage you (now you have to factor in the bonus damage from enrage, and extra raging blows), and mastery provides more bonus that applies only while enrage is up, which is makes that harder to evaluate as well.

    There's a reason we use simulations for this sort of thing. It's because broad sweeping statements like "1% crit is 1% damage" are fundamentally wrong.

    I think the problem with that is then you have to come up with a talent that can be useful for all 3 specs, and I can't say I have a good suggestion that's not just lawlz aoe. I feel like if Avatar was better most of that tier would be situational/preference yet all still on a similar theme of enhanced damage.
    That whole tier should be the AoE tier. Bladestorm doesn't fit as a enhanced damage because it's not a significant single target gain, and changing talents any time a second add shows up isn't fun or an interesting choice. Basically since they swapped Stormbolt and Bladestorm, something needs to change. Since we also have the problem of having too many aoe tools due to having aoe scattered throughout our talent tree, the best solution is to give us a dedicated AoE tier again, just with Shockwave separate this time (since its AoE stun causes PVP QQ). So T90 = Bladestorm, Ravager, Dragon's Roar; T60 = Stormbolt, Shockwave, (some new talent, preferably a long duration PVE CC talent). At the same time you can eliminate Avatar/Bloodbath from talents, make one baseline for Arms, and buff Recklessness to a more meaningful power level for fury.

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