6.0 Warrior changes discussion thread

[Smag]

You know why this stance shit is happening, right? It's because they were too afraid to make a 4th Gladiator spec, like druids, and a dps spec to that matter.
So after testing, they see that glad has to have it's own row of abilities, but you can't make a stance bar change without making it mandatory for all stances = stancedance.

Why did they force on prot for utility is beyond my understanding. They are making a brain dead simple herp-a-derp arms rotation and adding "depth" by making us macro in every goddamn utility we have.

So will the Arms be the only dps without a dot? Even monks have a dot!

AOE ability as a single target filler? At least Howling Blast applies a slow and some dots.

[Bigbazz]

Arms in tbc was shit after you got half-decent gear, you didn't need to do that much dps to outweigh the BF benefit (and if your raid wasn't melee heavy, it was even worse).

Arms was not shit lol. All of the top raiding guilds had an Arms Warrior. A Fury Warrior with glaives doing 2400 dps vs an Arms Warrior doing 2.2k dps + 4% physical damage for whole raid, so that is Hunters, Rogues, Enhancement Shamans, additional Fury Warriors and the tanks. You need around 3 people taking advantage of blood frenzy and it's better to take an Arms Warrior. Considering the dps rogues did, the enhancement shaman buffbot and the druid tank you probably had, not to mention the 2-3 hunters you may have had in your raid you can be damn sure you would benefit from an Arms Warrior.

At the top end it was basically a requirement, and I don't have to really argue the fact when the World First guilds used an Arms Warrior for their Sunwell kills, not Fury Warriors.

[Deleted]

Arms was not shit lol. All of the top raiding guilds had an Arms Warrior. A Fury Warrior with glaives doing 2400 dps vs an Arms Warrior doing 2.2k dps + 4% physical damage for whole raid, so that is Hunters, Rogues, Enhancement Shamans, additional Fury Warriors and the tanks. You need around 3 people taking advantage of blood frenzy and it's better to take an Arms Warrior. Considering the dps rogues did, the enhancement shaman buffbot and the druid tank you probably had, not to mention the 2-3 hunters you may have had in your raid you can be damn sure you would benefit from an Arms Warrior.

At the top end it was basically a requirement, and I don't have to really argue the fact when the World First guilds used an Arms Warrior for their Sunwell kills, not Fury Warriors.

If the melee dps didn't have top notch gear, arms didn't pull ahead. Also, the difference between a glaive/full t6 and some sunwell parts fury warr and an arms warr was a lot more than 200dps.

Also, fury scaled insanely well. Arguably top3 melee dps with rogues, enh shamans.

[Bigbazz]

If the melee dps didn't have top notch gear, arms didn't pull ahead. Also, the difference between a glaive/full t6 and some sunwell parts fury warr and an arms warr was a lot more than 200dps.

But you're not talking top end raiding, you're talking hypothetical situations here. A common raid comp, and one used for the Kil'Jaeden World first

3 Rogues
3 Hunters
1 Enhancement
1 Feral
1 Prot Warrior
1 Arms Warrior

That is 10 melee, 9 gaining advantage of the Blood Frenzy buff from the Arms Warrior. Those rogues/hunters/enhancement depending on the fight could be doing anywhere between 2k-2.7k dps, the Arms Warrior likely between 1.8-2.3k dps. A Fury Warrior would be around the same place as the rogues/hunters/enhance but would be nerfing all of their damage numbers for personal gain.

Let's just say all of them were doing 2k dps and the tanks 500 dps, you're looking at around 600 dps (4% of 15k) there or abouts, given that all of them did primarily physical damage, much more so than today. There is never a 600 dps difference between an equally skilled/geared Arms Warrior and Fury Warrior.



But like I said, all of this doesn't really matter because the proof is in the fact that Arms were so desired and widespread in TBC at the very top end of raiding. Arms should not be a purely PVP spec and it never really has been, not in TBC/WOTLK/Cata or MOP... And it definitely should not be a purely PVP spec in WOD either.

[Deleted]

But you're not talking top end raiding, you're talking hypothetical situations here. A common raid comp, and one used for the Kil'Jaeden World first

3 Rogues
3 Hunters
1 Enhancement
1 Feral
1 Prot Warrior
1 Arms Warrior

That is 10 melee, 9 gaining advantage of the Blood Frenzy buff from the Arms Warrior. Those rogues/hunters/enhancement depending on the fight could be doing anywhere between 2k-2.7k dps, the Arms Warrior likely between 1.8-2.3k dps. A Fury Warrior would be around the same place as the rogues/hunters/enhance but would be nerfing all of their damage numbers for personal gain.

Let's just say all of them were doing 2k dps and the tanks 500 dps, you're looking at around 600 dps (4% of 15k) there or abouts, given that all of them did primarily physical damage, much more so than today. There is never a 600 dps difference between an equally skilled/geared Arms Warrior and Fury Warrior.



But like I said, all of this doesn't really matter because the proof is in the fact that Arms were so desired and widespread in TBC at the very top end of raiding. Arms should not be a purely PVP spec and it never really has been, not in TBC/WOTLK/Cata or MOP... And it definitely should not be a purely PVP spec in WOD either.

Some guilds roll with far less melee dps.

Also, the gain wasn't usually nearly as high as 600dps raidwide from the BF buff. If the melees were worse geared/fewer or if the fury was very well geared, fury pulled ahead. It was all about what is greater, raidwide dps gain from BF or the dps difference between the warr playing fury vs arms.

[Deleted]

Would be cool to get back to discussing 6.0 Warriors, rather than 2.4 warriors

I know that a lot of these changes are still up in the air, but honestly I think if they tune the Rage issues that Arms currently has on Alpha (MS,CS,Slam,Execute rotation) that it would be fine. We don't need Rend back (I know it's not getting added) and I'm pretty sure I could speak for 90-100% of the Warriors here and say that we don't want Whirlwind as a filler.

[Bigbazz]

Some guilds roll with far less melee dps.

Also, the gain wasn't usually nearly as high as 600dps raidwide from the BF buff. If the melees were worse geared/fewer or if the fury was very well geared, fury pulled ahead. It was all about what is greater, raidwide dps gain from BF or the dps difference between the warr playing fury vs arms.

If you were raiding Sunwell then you weren't shit, and you werent badly geared. I was a Fury warrior raiding in a Sunwell guild during TBC. Nobody is saying they didn't raid, of course they did, but they weren't as desired as Arms Warriors. I'm not sure how it was in the much lower end guilds but you can be sure that if you were playing with us you werent "badly geared", if you were badly geared you weren't in the raid. High end raiding guilds wanted Arms Warriors, not Fury Warriors.

That example I used is actually being unfair towards the buff, most melee did more dps than 2k, and the Feral tanks did more dps than 500.. Most raid groups were pretty heavy on physical classes, and 600 dps is actually a pretty conservative number.

Would be cool to get back to discussing 6.0 Warriors, rather than 2.4 warriors

I know that a lot of these changes are still up in the air, but honestly I think if they tune the Rage issues that Arms currently has on Alpha (MS,CS,Slam,Execute rotation) that it would be fine. We don't need Rend back (I know it's not getting added) and I'm pretty sure I could speak for 90-100% of the Warriors here and say that we don't want Whirlwind as a filler.

You are right, but I'm not one to just sit there and read "Arms should be a PVP spec, it was shit before MOP anyway" as if that has any notion of truth. It should be set straight and put to bed. Arms being a PVE spec should very much be a thing, as it has always been (atleast since TBC).

Melee = Rage + Crit = double rage seems like a positive change to me. I wouldn't say no to Whirlwind as a filler if it acted as it used to (hard hitting 4 target limit), otherwise pretty fine with that being left out. But I'm someone who has liked Arms in MOP (at the start pre nerf, and again in 5.4), and I liked Arms in Dragon Soul Cataclysm. Personally I think Fury is the spec that needs most work, it feels alright now when you have heroic SOO gear, but it felt pretty clunky and horrible to play at launch, just as it does now in poor gear.

[Deleted]

PFFFF wth man! Taking away bleeds from arms makes me really sad, it's a warrior for god sake, shits supposed to bleed when we rain down on you! Also stance dance rearing its head again now, before the didn't want warriors having to switch stances to benefit from the class as a whole, but now they do? Okay. Does stance switching really not work well currently, because I think it does just fine. Hamstring change is a bummer too, off gcd was fine. SIGH

Not too pleased with these changes :/

Likewise, will be very sad to see bleeds gone, if that goes live. Still I guess there's some hope that we get to keep it. It may just be a "small" ability but imo it made warriors a bit more fun,and added to the gameplay with several targets etc... even while farming stuff you could leave mobs to bleed out and die, instead of killing them off one by one. Meh. And as you said, warriors are supposed to make their victims bleed, only makes sense.

Also, stancedancing, please god no....

[Celarent]

I like how the main way people are defending these changes, is essentially "Obviouslly blizz hasn't done all the changes yet!"

No, this is not just half the freakin' notes. These are the warrior notes. If you don't like them, make it known you don't like them.

Indeed. If players disagree with criticism, they need to defend the design and not Blizzard, like the devs are their best pals or something. It's as unproductive as sky-is-falling complaints.

So, sure, alpha -- but the ability to iterate is not an excuse to do it badly the first time. This latest direction looks more like an internal power struggle than a bold experiment.

[Deleted]

Whoa...

Did... did they just kill off Gladiator Stance in pvp?
Not being able to use Last Stand, Mocking Banner Invervene and Spell Reflection?
In addition beating on the arms spec even further? looks like fury is the only viable pvp spec now, im worried, very worried... Was really looking forward to Gladiator Stance, but with those changes, its useless.

[Jalopy]

Defensive stance turns into glad stance.

Most likely by being in glad stance you inherit the d stance requirement.

[Cloudwolfe]

Thunder Clap now costs 30 Rage, and also reduces the movement speed of nearby enemies by 50% for 6 seconds. Requires Defensive Stance or Gladiator Stance and is no longer available to Fury Warriors.

Thunder Clap is now available only to Protection Warriors, and its damage has been increased by 50%.

The patch notes listed here are obviously incorrect unless for some bizarre reason they want TC to have a rage cost for Prot again.
If they didn't want to remove TC cost for Prot why would it say that it "now costs 30 rage" but only available to Prot?


On another note, the one thing I was looking forward to above all else in WoD was Gladiator Stance. I don't like Fury or Arms, I like to bash things with a shield. I have enjoyed bashing things with a shield since 2008. I cried a little when they replaced Shield Bash with Pummel not because it worked slightly different but because it took away the "feel" of being a warrior with a shield if only a bit.

All that said though, and I'l preface this by saying that I do not know in any way why they are suggesting these changes and that it could have nothing to do with Glad Stance. If they go on some tangent to try make Glad Stance "work" by bringing back stance dancing or messing up another spec instead of just saying "X ability requires Defensive Stance or Battle Stance", I'd rather see Glad Stance gone.

[Deleted]

Defensive stance turns into glad stance.

Most likely by being in glad stance you inherit the d stance requirement.

I would wish to believe that, but if you check the notes, it clearly says, requires Defensive Stance or Gladiator Stance for most abilities, except those defensive ones which only says requires Defensive Stance, why the different wording if they would essentially work the same?

[Cloudwolfe]

Defensive stance turns into glad stance.

Most likely by being in glad stance you inherit the d stance requirement.

I thought it was the other way around, that Battle Stance turns into Glad Stance. If not, the passive 5% damage reduction it gives to Defensive Stance is pointless.

[Toppy]

I would wish to believe that, but if you check the notes, it clearly says, requires Defensive Stance or Gladiator Stance for most abilities, except those defensive ones which only says requires Defensive Stance, why the different wording if they would essentially work the same?

The brutal irony of the shield using dps spec having the lowest defense.

[icecruiser]

Having a bleed would be nice :P Don't see why its being removed from damage side of things :S

[Ryanite]

Defensive stance turns into glad stance.

Most likely by being in glad stance you inherit the d stance requirement.

the tooltip reads that it replaces battle stance with gladiator. so umm still alpha being alpha I hope they revert some of these changes. It may seem "healthy" for the warrior but so far changes, restrictions and ability pruning to this extent haven't been applied to other classes pretty much making the warrior handicapped. IMO, from what I've read/seen so far. which indeed may change and I'd rather warriors have some changes reverted rather then culling back other classes abilities.

[Jalopy]

the tooltip reads that it replaces battle stance with gladiator.

Oh I thought it replaced d stance. Nevermind, then.

[Tuor]

Can anyone please explain me the new Crased Berserker ability that is replacing SMF and TG... The ability speaks in one-handed weapons, but not in two-handed... If we still have the ability to Dw two-handers how are they going to difirenciate both??

I'm sorry, my shitty english sometimes get problematic... But it seems that Two-hander DW is gone , or the one-hander DW is not going to be viable .

[Toppy]

the tooltip reads that it replaces battle stance with gladiator. so umm still alpha being alpha I hope they revert some of these changes. It may seem "healthy" for the warrior but so far changes, restrictions and ability pruning to this extent haven't been applied to other classes pretty much making the warrior handicapped. IMO, from what I've read/seen so far. which indeed may change and I'd rather warriors have some changes reverted rather then culling back other classes abilities.

It does seem that the only explanation for all this is that they are making changes for the sake of reverting them.

Nothing about this latest run of patch notes is good. Nothing at all.