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  1. #41
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    Physical absorb shield equal to 16% of the attack’s damage when they are hit by a Physical attack
    Should really mention the word Physical in here. When u get hit by a physical type damage u get the shield and it only reduce physical type damage on you. At least that's what this meant to me.

  2. #42
    Should really mention the word Physical in here. When u get hit by a physical type damage u get the shield and it only reduce physical type damage on you. At least that's what this meant to me.
    In that it doesn't affect magic, yes.

  3. #43
    The Patient Grum88's Avatar
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    I am OS guardian but these notes....they are tasty, tasty enough to try it as main...maybe :>

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    Correct.


    I'm still trying to figure out how that's even possible. But let's say for the sake of argument that it is. The first hit would consume the absorb, the 2nd one would generate a new absorb, and the third hit would consume the absorb generated by the 2nd hit. And since you'll almost always have the Rage to heal yourself after taking such a hit, I still don't see how this is a problem.

    I guess you're referring to tanking 1 hard hitting and one piddly mob at the same time? I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of a scenario where that has existed this entire expansion - outside of maybe PGs.
    It's not completely out of the realm of possibilities, as it has happened in MoP, but mostly before our extra stamina modifier, passive DR boost, and T&C. The reason why we got the buffs to our survival throughout MoP was exactly because of large burst damage that we couldn't do much about, and the mastery change is more about smoothing out damage than dealing with burst. Even if tanking one mob, not all hits are equal between auto-attacks and special abilities.

    To be clear, I think auto-attacks will be a non-issue, I'm more interested in special attacks in combination with them (which are typically the only danger tanks have really had in recent history). Perhaps that's the reason why it appears we'll have a plethora of damage reduction CD's, because that burst potential and/or uncontrollable damage intake is still there... our only method of dealing with it has been survive and heal up afterwards. This mastery model doesn't change that, as it relies upon there being a bubble at the correct time of an appropriate size, which by current design is not guaranteed.

    If we knew for certain what survivability we'll be keeping as we transition into WoD versus what will be changed/removed, it would alleviate some concerns about it. By itself, the mastery is just a dynamic version of armor that doesn't really address the core problem with Guardian tanks in the realm of unavoidable damage... a ton of damage reduction CD's does, though. I view the mastery as more of protection against auto-attack RNG where we fail to dodge consecutive attacks even with SD going, not burst damage.

    *edit* - To be clear, as long as we have enough EH to survive any burst thrown at us despite mastery, I don't have a problem with the change. If the change is meant to have us rely on mastery to survive burst, then I have issues with its unreliability in the short-term... although I don't think there's such a thing as long-term burst damage?

    *edit #2*
    - Was curious if the mastery bubble would absorb bleed damage, too, or if it would have flag similar to T&C and only work for certain types of damage. That's one way to get a bubble artificially lower if bleeds can make it shrink. Although, I would've killed for this in MSV.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2014-04-05 at 04:41 AM.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  5. #45
    I think our mastery is intended to have more of a smoothing effect than a passive physical EH increase. We're pretty darn good in that aspect already, I don't think we need another source of it, easier to balance with fewer.

    I'm just happy it isn't working like current T&C - absorb (or inverse in T&C case) getting removed regardless of how much damage it actually does. You can have a 3 million T&C debuff on an enemy right now, stacked up during boss' non-melee phase. In the very next melee, even if he does 100k damage, all of it gets wiped.
    I hope that gets fixed for WoD with T&C, even if it opens a few semi-broken scenarios to mind and would not be a big impact on.. anything really. Still, there would be situations where you could save yourself a bit of damage on quite a few bosses.

    Didn't our WotLK Savage Defense work like that? Which this is essentially the same thing? A passive absorb effect, but that one got removed in one hit, no matter how strong.


    I'm really wondering what they're intending to do with other tanks. Us having suddenly so many %DR's, some on such low CDs and strong as well.. could be either of the following 2 things.

    - Other tanks CDs get buffed to be in line with ours. In which case I'm scared of the content they think we need so many DRs to survive. An Impale every minute, miss it and you're dead? o.O Hopefully it's more about reducing overall damage intake, saving healers mana like in early cata <3

    - They're compensating for the plethora of mechanics this exp that bypassed armor and we were useless against. Warriors could absorb, Monks could shuffle&purify, Paladins SotR is a shieldwall for physical damage when you want it, DK's could time absorbs. We stood there and hoped. I guess this would work, but I'm sure it'll open another pandora's box of cheese wonders.

    Hah, we're following same train of thought Exo

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    They're compensating for the plethora of mechanics this exp that bypassed armor and we were useless against. Warriors could absorb, Monks could shuffle&purify, Paladins SotR is a shieldwall for physical damage when you want it, DK's could time absorbs. We stood there and hoped. I guess this would work, but I'm sure it'll open another pandora's box of cheese wonders.
    To be honest I don't even know if this is changed yet. I mean the mastery sure smooths out the incoming physical damage but we don't even have control over it. The others can active mitig by pressing defensive cooldowns I don't think we got that. I mean we were buffed, got overpowered cooldowns till now, but the only thing we get to guarantee active mitig is in the form of the Pulverize L100 talent. Unless u take that, time it right and couple it with a barkskin, u won't be activily mitigating the unavoidable damage they put us against. The current idea of the druid is using a combination of smoothers like the new mastery, savage defense, barkskin and T&C along with big cooldowns when needed to protect ourselves against high damage and heal the rest of. I don't mind the uniqueness of the druid but im just saying our mastery isn't what the druids were waiting for which is an ability to actively prevent damage like snapping bite or blood rage etc..

  7. #47
    Not sure how to treat glyph of ursol's defense. Armor increase by additional 210% seems a lot.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andaja View Post
    Not sure how to treat glyph of ursol's defense. Armor increase by additional 210% seems a lot.
    But we don't even know how the base armor will be in 6.0

    maybe we're starting with low armor cz there's an armor stat going on in new stats that will be very important to tanks, and we can modify armor with this glyph to MoP high values.

  9. #49
    It's just.. if all these CD's are supposed to give us tools to deal with encounter abilities other tanks already have (and they don't get this treatment) then we'll be kings of overall damage intake AND be just about as well equipped against strong attacks as any other tank. OP.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Andaja View Post
    Not sure how to treat glyph of ursol's defense. Armor increase by additional 210% seems a lot.
    Guardians can't use it. It just emulates the Thick Hide armor bonus for non-guardians.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Mandibleclaw View Post
    To be honest I don't even know if this is changed yet. I mean the mastery sure smooths out the incoming physical damage but we don't even have control over it. The others can active mitig by pressing defensive cooldowns I don't think we got that. I mean we were buffed, got overpowered cooldowns till now, but the only thing we get to guarantee active mitig is in the form of the Pulverize L100 talent. Unless u take that, time it right and couple it with a barkskin, u won't be activily mitigating the unavoidable damage they put us against. The current idea of the druid is using a combination of smoothers like the new mastery, savage defense, barkskin and T&C along with big cooldowns when needed to protect ourselves against high damage and heal the rest of. I don't mind the uniqueness of the druid but im just saying our mastery isn't what the druids were waiting for which is an ability to actively prevent damage like snapping bite or blood rage etc..
    Here's how it appears on the surface to me: armor was boring as a mastery, and now we have a sexier version that accomplishes basically the same thing. Maybe I'm a bit curious why they went back to something that's basically passive, though, perhaps they have a couple versions and this is the iteration #1. Depending upon how well mastery scales, it could honestly be a very broken mechanic (I know I've been harping on the negatives, but even at high values of mastery it doesn't solve proactively preventing burst damage).

    That being said, maybe it's how the entire package comes together. As things appear now, Guardians will need the lvl 100 tier, and the design intent around changes is to accommodate them (those lvl 100 talents would be non-essential if we had a total functioning package prior to obtaining them, and they're all button-pushing AM's basically). Pulverize does seem a little too good, although I see all of them getting used for progression. Call me crazy, I think the rage generation of Pulverize is what makes it too good, the amount/duration of the DR I'm not too concerned about. Maybe it's a typo and supposed to cost 30 rage to use? I was also wondering if it wouldn't consume a non-3 stack or if you'd get a fraction of the damage reduction based upon how many stacks you consume. Perhaps there's a cooldown on the ability, reigning in the amount of rage generation you could get from just spamming Pulverize for rage. Maybe I'm just excited because we can talk and speculate about new things again.

    On the side of glyphs, it looks like all the new ones are basically non-Guardian currently. Maybe bears will get some interesting options? As it stands, I haven't change my glyphs since... well, before SoO? Some glyphs will have to change and likely will in the future.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  12. #52
    I agree, new mastery does essentially the same thing as the old one. I think they stayed with it being passive because we already have 3 tools at our disposal of reducing damage intake/healing it.
    If they wanted to keep SD, FR and T&C, they'd kinda need to make whatever they add passive, else it's a bit of an overload of tools for the player.

    I am really looking forward toward WoD if they in fact mean to toss us all these DR abilities as means of supplementing SD&FR. It'll give us a unique toolkit that I would bet will be really strong in quite a few situations. That can be a curse or a blessing, depending on the encounters a bit.

    In current incarnation, it does look like we'll pretty tough to play, compared to other tanks. They just press AM to prevent big spikes. We'll be juggling 3-4 DR CD's with various cooldowns for them.
    2(possibility) SI charges for 70%DR on 2min cd.
    Barkskin, 30%DR for 10sec on 30sec
    Pulverize 20%DR with potentially 100% uptime / Bristling fur 50%DR for 3sec, 1min cd.

    Bristling fur especially seems to suggest it's our "reliable AM" for those spikes that can't be dodged. I do welcome the new, although I'm really not sure if just because it solves a few of our problems or because of the manner it's doing it in.

  13. #53
    Was curious if the mastery bubble would absorb bleed damage, too
    Any physical damage.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    Any physical damage.
    Could be good or bad, depending upon the scenario. It's good from the perspective of mitigating bleed damage DoT, which druids are pretty susceptible to. If the bleeds can proc a shield... well, it really depends on the size of the bleeds and what other physical attacks we'd deal with. Granted it doesn't happen often... I take that back, Blizz has had a love with physical damage attacks via DoT's and sonic effects this expansion, if weaker attacks are proccing the bubbles, it's possible to underperform. I know the "tanking a boss + piddly add" has been tossed around, but environmental/AoE effects proccing the bubble are a possibility as well based upon size and timing. With the new healing model, I doubt we'll see big bursts of AoE/environmental physical damage versus smaller, paper-cut damage.

    Again, not really concerned about sustained damage versus burst, and I consider bleeds to be typically a sustained damage mechanic. The more I ruminate upon these changes, the more I think Blizz really wants to keep Guardians with the same model of SoO bears, perhaps with less emphasis on FR (add in the extra mitigation/cooldowns) to allow healers to do more work. It's all about the big picture, not just Guardians in a vacuum... or Bears In Spaaaaaaaace! ....sorry, was watching The Muppet Show.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    Any physical damage.
    Ohhh. That's way better. I'm thinking of Iron Qon when the impale couldn't be mitigated really at all by Bears.

  16. #56
    TBH the only thing i dont like about the new mastery is not absorbing a big hit. If im gonna take a talon rake, i really hope the last autoattack gave me a shield... although i guess the other way around, if i can live that talon rake, the next autoattack will do very little damage giving me some pause to heal up..

  17. #57
    I really don't like these changes. They have absolutely no idea what to do with bears, so they bring back the old WotLK and Cataclysm mechanisms.

    I allways hated Pulverize. The whole "build 3 stack than consume it" is just another retard combopoint system.
    Removing Mangle reset from every skill except one is a terrible idea, castsequence macro tanking will be back.
    Absorb shield again? Thought they hated it for many reason... now its ok again?
    Crit looks like a useless stat right now.
    Mastery will be must have main stat for every tank, thanks to the new attack power increasing effect. Especially if enrage timers are tight again.

    I won't quit my bear, but im not sure this will be my favourite expansion. But things can/will change, lets hope for the best.

  18. #58
    Removing Mangle reset from every skill except one is a terrible idea, castsequence macro tanking will be back.
    The difference now is that skipping a Mangle is very very bad, which pretty much kills being able to castsequence.

    I do agree that Crit's value appears to be lower than it should be. But there's plenty of time to confirm and adjust that.

    The old Savage defense had many, many problems. It's a good thing it was removed. But having an absorb that functions purely as damage smoothing mechanic to backup Savage Defense is fine.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    The old Savage defense had many, many problems. It's a good thing it was removed. But having an absorb that functions purely as damage smoothing mechanic to backup Savage Defense is fine.
    It still strikes me as odd, even if it does work (as it appears it would be from the info we have). Tooth and Claw was meant to fill that void, and I think it's done a pretty good job (upcoming charge system and making Maul free are icing on the cake). Adding an absorb mechanic of similar ilk as a mastery is just... I can't put my finger on it, but it's pretty close to making a change for the sake of making changes.

    Maybe I'm still hoping for mastery to tie into our existing active mitigation, or a button we can push. The current proposed mastery seems just as passive as armor, just more unpredictable.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  20. #60
    It's hard to make Mastery improve our existing AM tools without changing the AM tools themselves. Since we know Blizzard likes the theme Guardians have going on - lots of self healing, dodge, armor, stamina - and we know that special abilities are things that exist and that sometimes they ignore two of our main gimmicks - armor and dodge - there has to be something on the other end to catch things that make it past our gimmicks.

    In a sense the new Mastery is just like the old one, except it's more powerful, works on more stuff, and is only there when you actually need it.

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