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  1. #621
    Yea, cleanse might be broken in pvp, but that doesn't stop prot pallys/BrM monks from having it :-p. If we retain it, it should be usable (imo). Let us be hybrids!

    Just b/c you deem MotW not being useful to be castable in form, doesn't mean it isn't. Yea, it'll matter less in bigger raid sizes, but atm people are pretty damn lazy about re-buffing after deaths and while they certainly should learn to be less bad before progression rolls around again, I also would like to be able to easily do my part. It's not like this is a significant burden for Blizz to implement, it's just a small QoL up.

    Much more importantly though:
    Our mastery will work on things like Thok's screech, blood rage, sonic projection, right? I was *really* looking forward to that part! There are just so many raid damage sources that ignore armor; I was assuming our new mastery (with pulverize helping) would allow us to be one of the better tanks for those situations, rather than the worst :-p.
    Last edited by Kitmajere; 2014-07-23 at 07:59 PM.

  2. #622
    Just b/c you deem MotW not being useful to be castable in form, doesn't mean it isn't.
    True. However it does mean I'm going to ignore it in favour of more important things

    Our mastery will work on things like Thok's screech, blood rage, sonic projection, right?
    Yes. Everything Stagger works on, our Mastery will work on.

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    True. However it does mean I'm going to ignore it in favour of more important things


    Yes. Everything Stagger works on, our Mastery will work on.
    Which is F'n awesome. Thanks for the help on twitter yesterday about the patch note implications. Looking forward to what else they're going to do.

  4. #624
    Level 100 talent alteration:

    Guardian of Elune: Additionally, the recharge time on Savage Defense is now reduced by your base dodge chance %.

    I don't believe it makes that talent that much better than it already is (meh). Our base dodge is only around 20%, so 1-2 seconds off the recharge time?

  5. #625
    The intent is obvious: more passive dodge made the talent weaker.

    We have (almost) 15% on the 660 premades, which by the wording would be a 7.65s recharge. Not great, but almost 4 more seconds of every minute being unhittable. It's a good boost to the talent, and potentially hilarious if they don't fix the bug with that talent .

  6. #626
    Yeah I agree, obvious change made to correct the "worse as you got better gear" problem. Works pretty well too. I think it's a solid talent choice now.

    Fur is still trash though :|

  7. #627
    Is pulverize really damage neutral though? That would give it a slightly unfair edge otherwise.

    I really wish they made pulverize not feel punishing in aoe tanking.

  8. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    I really wish they made pulverize not feel punishing in aoe tanking.
    While I loathe the feel of Pulverize in AoE situations, it may need that sort of punitive feeling so it's not always the right answer. If it's effective and easy to use in all situations, why pick any other talent? Then again, I could be completely wrong with how Blizz wants to deal with it, as I don't think they've come out and said how they feel about it and intend to design that talent row for Guardians. At the very least, compared to what we have now, it should be the most powerful because it's the hardest to use in any scenario.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  9. #629
    i dont really think talents being black-and-white is a really great design, nor is what blizzard has in mind. Pulverize has the biggest specific scenario weakness out of all talents. Bristling fur is great for an additional cooldown, although its a bit lacking i think.. guardian of elune works great in every situation. Pulverize is only truly good in single target, unless you don't care about your aoe dps going down in oblivion.

  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    i dont really think talents being black-and-white is a really great design, nor is what blizzard has in mind. Pulverize has the biggest specific scenario weakness out of all talents. Bristling fur is great for an additional cooldown, although its a bit lacking i think.. guardian of elune works great in every situation. Pulverize is only truly good in single target, unless you don't care about your aoe dps going down in oblivion.
    To be honest, I don't think Blizzard has a choice to make the talents other than black and white when it comes to a full defensive tier for a very simple tank.

    But it also doesn't make Pulverize a God Mode talent in every situation. It has some key weaknesses and I believe those will show themselves once we get into some more raid testing. The recent change to Guardian of Elune and the strength of Bristling Fur with how many big damaging tank mechanics that bosses look to have in this coming tier makes the level 100 talents not seem too bad after all. I still think some tuning can/will take place, but it definitely isn't the worst level 100 tank tier.

  11. #631
    Bristling fur and savage defense are in pretty good spots, pulverize just sucks in aoe situations, unless you don't care about your dps and just keep thrash up to maintain aggro... They could easily do something like giving pulverize a cooldown and only consume lacerate stacks if there are any present on the enemy, or not consume them at all.. then it will be bette rounded.

    Of course there will be situations where each ability is better. SD will rock fights like twin ogron which seems to have a dodgeable stacking bleed buff, since it will guarantee it to drop, bristling fur is great if you need another cooldown for a fight, and pulverize is a skill-requiring overall damage smoother, but it just feels horrible on aoe right now.

  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    i dont really think talents being black-and-white is a really great design, nor is what blizzard has in mind. Pulverize has the biggest specific scenario weakness out of all talents. Bristling fur is great for an additional cooldown, although its a bit lacking i think.. guardian of elune works great in every situation. Pulverize is only truly good in single target, unless you don't care about your aoe dps going down in oblivion.
    A talent having a weakness isn't new. Just look at the rest of our talent tiers.

    If mobs are doing serious damage, but not staying alive long enough to Pulverize off of, then you take GoE.

    Bristling fur and savage defense are in pretty good spots,
    Wat. Fur is trash and needs to be replaced. Anything that we would actually need Fur for has already killed any other tank.

    unless you don't care about your dps and just keep thrash up to maintain aggro... They could easily do something like giving pulverize a cooldown and only consume lacerate stacks if there are any present on the enemy, or not consume them at all.. then it will be bette rounded.
    Why would you care about your DPS in an AoE situation? Most of the DPS we do comes from the DoT anyway. Or is everyone still under the impression you'll be spamming Thrash every GCD since the Primal Fury fix isn't in yet?

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    Of course there will be situations where each ability is better.
    And that's good talent design. One talent should not be great for every situation and all talents should be useable/viable in some way, even if it is only for one specific purpose.

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    Because every spec needs to have some kind of weakness. Other than ranged AoE threat (which has historically not been a problem) Guardians don't really have one in Beta.


    You will in Mythic, because you will plan it that way. Otherwise you did it wrong.
    Ridiculous argument, you can't guarantee to have a Hunter in raid. Yes any serious raiding guild will have one on the roster but I'm not aware of any guild where 100% of the raiders show up for 100% of the raids.

  15. #635
    honestly, i get the whole weakness argument, but i feel like pulverize being really bad on aoe is a pretty bad weakness. It's weakness should be that it's hard to use, and that it won't fit the niches the other two talents do.

    I don't think it's that unreasonable to make pulverize useable during aoe without sacrificing a huge chunk of aoe dps.

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    honestly, i get the whole weakness argument, but i feel like pulverize being really bad on aoe is a pretty bad weakness. It's weakness should be that it's hard to use, and that it won't fit the niches the other two talents do.

    I don't think it's that unreasonable to make pulverize useable during aoe without sacrificing a huge chunk of aoe dps.
    You keep saying this, and I keep not understanding why. In any AoE situation where stuff lives long enough to get Pulverize up, you're not going to be spamming Thrash. And, in any AoE situation where things do not live long enough to get Pulverize up, you will only spam Thrash if there's 9-10 or more targets - in which case they're either completely trivial and it doesn't matter, or they're non-trivial and you take GoE.

  17. #637
    On my char, thrash deals 1900 damage on impact, 2 rage, lacerate deals 3800 damage, 5 rage... If there are 3+ targets, you want to thrash instead of lacerate for more dps and perhaps 4-5+ for rage since you'd lose mangle procs. I don't see why i would need to wait for 9-10 targets for thrash to be worth using? Unless there something i dont unserstand... 3+ targets is an extremely frequent scenario in which pulverize would lose a lot of value. You could say survival is more important, but i'm sure you know this is extremely rarely the case as dps is very important, especially at high levels of raiding.

    This weakness is way too specific, either you let go of a massive portion of aoe dps and gain it's survival benefit... or you keep all-out dpsing and lose pulverize's use entirely. The talent being useful in 1-2, maybe 3 enemy fights is pretty bad. Design-wise, i'd much rather have it have a different weakness... preferably a damage reduction oriented weakness, since the tier is all about damage reduction and not dps.

  18. #638
    You could say survival is more important, but i'm sure you know this is extremely rarely the case as dps is very important, especially at high levels of raiding.
    Warlords is not Mists. You're placing too much value on DPS.

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    Warlords is not Mists. You're placing too much value on DPS.
    Or maybe you're not enough? Blizzard has done many things to make sure every stat is worth dps in WoD, and tank dps is tuned to be 75%~ of a real dps, you can't just come and claim dps is not a concern.

    It's just a matter of making the choice more interesting in the end. Nothing interesting in losing aoe dps. Just make the whole talent tier dps neutral and all about survival. I wouldn't be surprised if it was simply an oversight on blizzard's part.

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    Or maybe you're not enough? Blizzard has done many things to make sure every stat is worth dps in WoD, and tank dps is tuned to be 75%~ of a real dps, you can't just come and claim dps is not a concern.

    It's just a matter of making the choice more interesting in the end. Nothing interesting in losing aoe dps. Just make the whole talent tier dps neutral and all about survival. I wouldn't be surprised if it was simply an oversight on blizzard's part.
    Dps is your last concern as a tank. Don't try and make it something that it is not.

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