Guardian Alpha Patchnotes

[Dreyen]

Dps is your last concern as a tank. Don't try and make it something that it is not.

That is an old mentality. For tanks, you want to look at the whole package, and that includes DPS. Monk dps was one of the biggest factors for them being the chosen tank back in ToT. If your tank can stay alive and do more dps, that's an advantage.

You say tank dps doesn't matter, yet a dps loss in aoe situation is a good weakness for pulverize? That is contradictory.

[Callsignecho]

That is an old mentality. For tanks, you want to look at the whole package, and that includes DPS. Monk dps was one of the biggest factors for them being the chosen tank back in ToT. If your tank can stay alive and do more dps, that's an advantage.

You say tank dps doesn't matter, yet a dps loss in aoe situation is a good weakness for pulverize? That is contradictory.

I never stated that anything about dps and Pulverize in my statements. Go back and read them. I stated that Pulverize has some key weaknesses and, to state now, dps isn't one of them. The weaknesses of Pulverize are that it is lackluster in AoE situations because you cannot get the full benefit out of the talent and situations where you cannot keep the buff going.

As Arielle stated, you are thinking in terms of MoP tanking and not Warlords tanking. You are putting way too much value on a tank's dps. We are actually going back to that "old mentality" that you stated where if a dps is on par or lower than a tank, they will have no welcome spot in that raid/group.

Are you in beta at all?

[Teye]

Are you in beta at all?

Drop the condescending tone. It just makes you look clueless.

That said, Dreyen is absolutely correct. No top level guild will pick a tank who never dies but has shit DPS over a tank who never dies and has good DPS. Ever. In other words, it matters. Also, Enrage timers aren't going away or anything... They still matter, and therefore tank DPS still matters. Hell, healer DPS matters. When top level guilds were wiping to the enrage timer on bosses in T14, they underhealed and stacked Disc Priests to increase raid damage. Top level tanks were sitting between melee hits with CDs active to spike DPS before Blizzard removed Crits giving extra Vengeance. Claiming tank DPS doesn't matter at a top end level is simply wrong.

[Arielle]

Look at it this way. In a typical AoE situation, there's always a couple of targets that should die first. If those stay alive long enough for you to get Pulverize up, then there's no problem, otherwise they're not alive long enough for survival to be an issue. DPS on the extraneous targets that are less dangerous isn't relevant at all. All you have to do is make sure you have threat on them.

If everything has equal priority then either (a) nothing is dangerous and Pulverize doesn't matter, in which case you can spam Thrash to your heart's content or (b) you're using 1 tank in a scenario where you should be using more than 1.

There's no law that says you have to use Pulverize for AoE. Especially when there's another talent sitting right there that is much better for AoE situations anyway.

Claiming tank DPS doesn't matter at a top end level is simply wrong.

Oh, it totally matters. For things on which DPS is an issue. Specifically AoE DPS in this scenario.

Although why you wouldn't simply take GoE and spam Thrash to your heart's content in those situations, I have no idea.

[Callsignecho]

Drop the condescending tone. It just makes you look clueless.

That said, Dreyen is absolutely correct. No top level guild will pick a tank who never dies but has shit DPS over a tank who never dies and has good DPS. Ever. In other words, it matters. Also, Enrage timers aren't going away or anything... They still matter, and therefore tank DPS still matters. Hell, healer DPS matters. When top level guilds were wiping to the enrage timer on bosses in T14, they underhealed and stacked Disc Priests to increase raid damage. Top level tanks were sitting between melee hits with CDs active to spike DPS before Blizzard removed Crits giving extra Vengeance. Claiming tank DPS doesn't matter at a top end level is simply wrong.

Actually, you look more clueless, because at no point have I stated that tank dps does not matter at all. However, I have stated that dps is a lower priority than other things that a tank is responsible for in a fight.

I also have to state that you and many other people in thread are using MoP tanking as an example/to compare with Warlords tanking and they simply are not the same thing.

[Dreyen]

By old mentality, i meant back in vanilla where the tank virtually did inexistant dps... back when you spammed sunder and did probably 40 dps. And yes I am in the beta.

Blizzard involved every stat as a dps stat, they are tuning tank dps to be near eachother, they realize tanks will get their dps scrutinized. 75% dps of a real dps is still quite a lot.
Making a talent destroy your aoe dps is not good design, it just mean theres no decision, you just scrap it and take one of the other two when there is aoe. Goes a long way against the choice blizzard wants to establish with the talents. I personally fully intend to use GoE in any situation with 3+ mobs and pulverize for single target fights, unless pulverize proves vastly superior and that my every effort requires my extreme min/max of survival at the cost of my dps.

Honestly though, this talent tier has -nothing- to do about damage. Why can't you guys think of other, more fitting weaknesses that focuses on survival? Let's get some ideas out there... The way i'd like to see it:

All talents are more or less equal in terms of damage reduction:

GoE: Stays as-is, it's great with the recharge time reduction change.
Pulverise: Similar to what it is right now, but requires only one lacerate stack? Maybe a cooldown. It should get nerfed though, as 20%DR is a lot... This is our most consistant reduction talent.
Bristling Fur: Stays as an additional CD.. could have a 5% permanent with it? Gives a good consistent buff and is a handy extra cooldown.


That way, each talent is great damage reduction, fills some niches (GoE dodges more dangerous attacks/bosses that frequently stop cast and have lower meleeing uptime, pulverize is overall damage smoothing, and bristling fur can be good even if you don't expect a big hit... a great CD to hit when low hp) No DPS penalty anywhere, everyone's happy!

Although why you wouldn't simply take GoE and spam Thrash to your heart's content in those situations, I have no idea.

It is what I intend to do, but I find it bad design that pulverize doesn't work in that situation, which is really, really frequent, while it belongs in a tier that has nothing to do about DPS.

[Arielle]

It is what I intend to do, but I find it bad design that pulverize doesn't work in that situation, which is really, really frequent, while it belongs in a tier that has nothing to do about DPS.

AoE situations that threaten your survival are not frequent.

And no, Fur needs to be replaced.

[Dreyen]

AoE situations that threaten your survival are not frequent.

And no, Fur needs to be replaced.

Challenge modes?

And thats why i proposed to add a permanent 5% DR to fur, and that pulverize needs a slight nerf imo.

[Callsignecho]

And thats why i proposed to add a permanent 5% DR to fur, and that pulverize needs a slight nerf imo.

I'm really waiting first wave of major balance changes for Pulverize to get nerfed into the ground and the other 2 talents to get some more love.

[Dreyen]

I'm really waiting first wave of major balance changes for Pulverize to get nerfed into the ground and the other 2 talents to get some more love.

Same, i really like the change they did to guardian of elune though, it does make it so that it costs more to maintain savage defense, but im not sure thats really a big deal..

[Arielle]

Challenge modes?

Any seriously threatening AoE situation in CMs is handled with CDs. You know that :P

And thats why i proposed to add a permanent 5% DR to fur, and that pulverize needs a slight nerf imo.

Doesn't change that if we need Fur for something, any other tank is already dead. That's the core problem with it.

And yes, Pulverize does need to get nerfed.

[Kitmajere]

DPS is still absolutely going to be a concern for progression hardcore raiding. You're crazy if you think it's not. Yes, living will obviously take priority, but it's a very firm second place to that.

Re: Bristling Fur -- I don't think we know yet if it'll be used situationally. It's obviously a very niche talent, so that may mean it needs replacing, but it could have its moments for very large predictable and frequent spikes of damage that other tanks would handle via their active mitigation (SBarr/ShoR/Blood Shield/stagger) where we can't count on our mastery to be up/dodge to be work/pulverize+armor to be enough in comparison to other tanks' completely controllable and frequent 40-50+% DR guaranteed active mitigation.

[exochaft]

Re: Bristling Fur -- I don't think we know yet if it'll be used situationally. It's obviously a very niche talent, so that may mean it needs replacing, but it could have its moments for very large predictable and frequent spikes of damage that other tanks would handle via their active mitigation (SBarr/ShoR/Blood Shield/stagger) where we can't count on our mastery to be up/dodge to be work/pulverize+armor to be enough in comparison to other tanks' completely controllable and frequent 40-50+% DR guaranteed active mitigation.

I view it less about the amount of damage reduction it provides versus the intent of the talent, and the intent is likely for frequent, hard-hitting damage windows. I'd go so far as to say it's not about we "need" the damage reduction from Bristling Fur to live but rather using that talent making life easier for healers in the mana department. I think the better comparison is Bristling Fur is a stronger, less frequently available Barkskin... it helps lessen the impact of incoming damage to make it less scary when a predictable big hit is coming or several damaging abilities will occur at the same time. Most of the time we don't need Barkskin, but that doesn't stop us from using it when we know a larger-than-normal amount of damage is coming, regardless is said damage is life-threatening.

All that being said, it probably is still the weakest of the three talents right now. However, the amount of DR and the duration Bristling Fur provides kinda makes sense if you look at our package of DR abilities. In terms of DR and the frequency of availability, it falls nicely between Barkskin and SI (I can understand why they didn't make it 12 seconds in duration like the rest ). It still needs improvement even in that realm of use, though.

*edit* - Just throwing it out there, but what would people think about a talent revolving around Frenzied Regen to take the place of Bristling Fur? I know they already dumped the previous one about FR being an absorb instead of a heal, but I think an FR-centric talent could potentially be more interesting if done right.

[Dreyen]

I'd love FR having a hot affect after using it, like our current 4piece... but that would be similar to pulverize in terms of constant damage reduction, but a nice alternative nontheless and a soloing buff

[Arielle]

All that being said, it probably is still the weakest of the three talents right now. However, the amount of DR and the duration Bristling Fur provides kinda makes sense if you look at our package of DR abilities. In terms of DR and the frequency of availability, it falls nicely between Barkskin and SI (I can understand why they didn't make it 12 seconds in duration like the rest ). It still needs improvement even in that realm of use, though.

Considering Pulverize + Barkskin gives 6% less damage reduction, yet is active for 4 times as long, and you get 20% all the time.......yeah it's bad.

A talent that did something with FR would be cool. I think a replication of 2t15 would actually work well in Warlords.

[Gemini Soul]

*edit* - Just throwing it out there, but what would people think about a talent revolving around Frenzied Regen to take the place of Bristling Fur? I know they already dumped the previous one about FR being an absorb instead of a heal, but I think an FR-centric talent could potentially be more interesting if done right.

A few ideas:

Increase healing + over healing it does goes into an absorb that can soak any damage like a healers bubble.

reduce cost for same heal like a 40 rage heal will heal for 60 rage.

HoT effect would be nice like the 4pc but stronger ticks.

If they made pulverize to eat up lacerate or thrash bleed on the target it would make it more AoE tanking usable.

They still haven't addressed the Incarnation issue

[Skorkin]

An idea for Pulverize:

Make it consume 3 stacks on Lacerate deal 300% Physical damage, generate 15 rage, and reduce damage taken by 20% for 10 sec. 3 sec cooldown

Make it consume 3+ Thrash bleeds on targets 10yds in front of the druid to deal 200% Physical damage + 100% Physical damage to targets where Thrash bleed was consumed, generate 2.5 Rage per bleed consumed, and reduce damage taken by 3.33% for 10 sec per bleed consumed. 6 sec cooldown

Pulverize would prefer to consume Lacerate stacks first so if you have both conditions met you can use it 2 times in relatively quick succession.

That way we become bleed consuming crazy bears. :3

I'd love for this to be baseline.

- - - Updated - - -

If we can have baseline pulverize then make our level 100 talents empower 1 of 3 of our active mitigation buttons in someway.

Guardain of Elune - Unchanged

Frenzied Ward - Your Frenzied Regeneration also applies an absorb for 50% of the effective healing it does.

Way of the Claw - Targets affected by Tooth and Claw now also heal the attacker 50% of the damage reduced in addition to reducing damage.

[teddabear]

No top level guild will pick a tank who never dies but has shit DPS over a tank who never dies and has good DPS. Ever.

Unfortunately this is never the case. Ever.

Tanks that emphasize DPS die more often. My most frustrating nights in MoP were progression nights where a DPS focused tank kept dying.

Also tank DPS was far less important in 25 man. 20 man will probably be much closer to 25 man in this regard than it will 10 man.

[Arielle]

FWIW there's no DPS difference between a Pulverize and a non-Pulverize rotation on a single target. At least nothing appreciable.

You drop a Mangle for a Pulverize (26% WD difference), but you also lose a decent amount of Lacerate stack damage. Pretty even.

[Dreyen]

Unfortunately this is never the case. Ever.

Tanks that emphasize DPS die more often. My most frustrating nights in MoP were progression nights where a DPS focused tank kept dying.

Also tank DPS was far less important in 25 man. 20 man will probably be much closer to 25 man in this regard than it will 10 man.

There is a balance to be had. I've had tons of scenarios where it'S completly safe to spam maul/heroic strike on progression content, and i'Ve never died, never got told i required too much healing... there are just fights with less tank damage where you can squeeze every bit of damage possible.