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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by Braindwen View Post
    Also, yeah, I'm worried about FR being worth using above SD always when just tanking a boss. Resolve isn't even that much of a culprit, it's doing its job of scaling much more poorly than vengeance (SD catches up as boss damage goes up), the main culprit is gear scaling.
    Blizz might have a little trouble with this, as there is damage intake between your average lvl 100 mob in Nagrand and raid bosses. I know many people don't focus on that middle ground, but I've found that bears struggle in that zone of damage intake when you're taking decent damage but Resolve is low or not kicking in. It's similar to how Vengeance and FR worked in SoO if you went between 10man normal and 25man heroic (or even 10man heroic) on the same boss, the way bears used abilities and reacted to damage drastically changes because of Vengeance scaling. That "issue" doesn't really disappear with Resolve, although perhaps dampening down on Resolve equalizes the experience and makes our choices more gear-dependent.

    I suppose, simply stated, it's an overall clash between stats balancing, gear scaling, and keeping control on Resolve. At the very low and high extremes, bears may seem powerful in certain aspects, but the middle ground is a completely different story. I would hazard a guess that most bears likely operate at the low/middle ground, so the solution would likely have to be elevating the middle ground while not completely turning high ground bears into god-mode tanks.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    That wouldn't make sense. Would mean we'd be the only one to work like that. They need to nerf the conversion of resolve to bonus healing/T&C. It doesn't make sense for our active mitigation becoming weaker when we shieldwall and such.
    He obviously meant for every tank.

    I don't care for it atm either, though there is already a precedent for our healing scaling negatively with one of our stats (stamina). At the very least, it's a better idea for resolve than it was for vengeance, since there's no DPS to be lost.

    @ above: We don't suffer at the low extremes. Resolve is set up so FR doesn't scale to damage taken nearly as well as it does currently with vengeance. Basically we're immortal at low damage intake and always will be because FR scales so strongly with gear, and SD doesn't start to catch up until you're taking raid-level damage, or aoe-tanking/tanking a fast hitting single target. Eventually at high enough incoming damage SD>>FR, and we're more reliant on outside healing since our self-sustain tools don't keep pace with damage taken (which is kind of the point of switching to resolve in the first place as opposed to making vengeance grant "defense power").

    Where that concerns me is that, with a bit more gear, that catch up point is looking more like 2-300% resolve... and resolve's bad scaling kind of breaks down that high.
    Last edited by Braindwen; 2014-08-02 at 12:50 AM.

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by Braindwen View Post
    @ above: We don't suffer at the low extremes. Resolve is set up so FR doesn't scale to damage taken nearly as well as it does currently with vengeance. Basically we're immortal at low damage intake and always will be because FR scales so strongly with gear, and SD doesn't start to catch up until you're taking raid-level damage, or aoe-tanking/tanking a fast hitting single target.
    Never said we suffered at low extremes, I agree we're pretty powerful there. As I said, there's a vast range of damage Guardians can take between questing and raiding, and it's where FR doesn't scale well enough and SD doesn't catch up where Guardians actually hurt.

    *edit* - I should mention quickly that I don't think it's an issue that can really be solved with how we're designed in general. There has to be a point where gear/stats only get you so far and Resolve takes over for you. Shrinking the gap between those two points is likely the best that can be done.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2014-08-02 at 01:05 AM.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  4. #684
    But there is no "high and low where we're powerful, weak middle ground", it's low=strong, high=weak. Resolve works that way, by design, for all tanks' we don't scale with damage taken nearly as well as we did in MoP because we didn't need healers in MoP endgame.

    About the only problem is we're so damn strong at everything that we need crazy amounts of resolve for damage to even be a threat. 100% resolve shouldn't be a place where you can stay alive all day by yourself, 100%-150% resolve should be right around where it caps out for a hard hitting boss. Obvious fixes are to nerf resolve/nerf our gear scaling (mastery %, FR/T&C AP coefficients, etc.).

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by Braindwen View Post
    But there is no "high and low where we're powerful, weak middle ground", it's low=strong, high=weak. Resolve works that way, by design, for all tanks' we don't scale with damage taken nearly as well as we did in MoP because we didn't need healers in MoP endgame.

    About the only problem is we're so damn strong at everything that we need crazy amounts of resolve for damage to even be a threat. 100% resolve shouldn't be a place where you can stay alive all day by yourself, 100%-150% resolve should be right around where it caps out for a hard hitting boss. Obvious fixes are to nerf resolve/nerf our gear scaling (mastery %, FR/T&C AP coefficients, etc.).
    Figured out what my issue was, there was a bug last build where I would not properly generate Resolve from damage taken until I took a very large amount of damage (aka, raid boss level). This new build Resolve seems to have fixed this bug, and that "gap" I mentioned is effectively gone... almost went and said the new build resolved Resolve. Mid-range creatures that were destroying my bear are pushovers this build with Resolve working.

    Now I can see what you're experiencing with "proper" Resolve scaling, or at least what everyone else should be experiencing. Yeah, it's probably too good right now, although I think there's an inherent fear of making reactive tanks too healer-reliant compared to proactive tanks even with all the cooldowns we have available.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  6. #686
    Lacerate just got hit by a massive nerf, it's dot does much less damage (74% of ap to 9%). Wasn't aware our single target dps was too good, or maybe it's just bad datamining.

  7. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    Lacerate just got hit by a massive nerf, it's dot does much less damage (74% of ap to 9%). Wasn't aware our single target dps was too good, or maybe it's just bad datamining.
    Most likely a real change, i have noticed that they tend to over nerf then slowly buff it back.

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    Lacerate just got hit by a massive nerf, it's dot does much less damage (74% of ap to 9%). Wasn't aware our single target dps was too good, or maybe it's just bad datamining.
    It's just a TT fix. The damage hasn't actually changed.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    It's just a TT fix. The damage hasn't actually changed.

    You sure about that? Not sure what to make of Celest's posts on twitter yesterday then right before the new build...


    Celestalon ‏atCelestalon Aug 4

    atgrafarion That's happening too. Next build may be regarded as "The Great DK Nerf of 2014"
    Celestalon ‏atCelestalon Aug 4

    then...
    Jay atgrafarion Aug 4

    atCelestalon tbh i think druids are way stronger than DKS atm

    then...

    atgrafarion They also got nerfed about as much. "The great Bear/Blood Nerf of 2014". Better?

  10. #690
    You sure about that?
    .......

    I'm not sure whether to feel insulted or not.

    Not sure what to make of Celest's posts on twitter yesterday then right before the new build...
    He's referring to survivability nerfs, not DPS nerfs.

  11. #691
    New patch.. mangle generates 10 rage instead of 15, lacerate 2 instead of 5. Tooth&claw doesnt make maul free anymore but maul costs 20 rage.

    I think these are much needed changes, rage gen was out of control

    Survival instincts if 50% now though

    Small dps buff for mangle and maul, thrash got a huge nerf, but im guessing it's a tooltip change because it wouldn't make sense to nerf our aoe that hard.

  12. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    New patch.. mangle generates 10 rage instead of 15, lacerate 2 instead of 5. Tooth&claw doesnt make maul free anymore but maul costs 20 rage.

    I think these are much needed changes, rage gen was out of control

    Survival instincts if 50% now though

    Small dps buff for mangle and maul, thrash got a huge nerf, but im guessing it's a tooltip change because it wouldn't make sense to nerf our aoe that hard.
    I think u missed pulv not generating rage anymore?

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Mandibleclaw View Post
    I think u missed pulv not generating rage anymore?
    And thrash's rage nerf, 2->1.

    Bear thrash being nerfed looks like it's just for Feral. Feral's bear thrash is gutted, Guardian's is fine (hits for very slightly more upfront than lacerate, which is a little weird).

  14. #694
    So, if the base values for rage gen got nerfed so hard... wouldn't that make crit once again king of all stats for us?

  15. #695
    The armor nerf is pretty big since we lost the 12% dr when it got buffed. I think we had 67% dr from armor in raids before the nerf, how much will we have now?

  16. #696
    A 660 premade bear without bonus armor went from 6139 (53.98%) to 3771 (41.88%). About a 25% damage taken increase.

  17. #697
    Just got in to looking at the patch notes:

    Bear Form: Seems like they want to go back to the % physical damage reduction in form vs. more armor.
    Mangle: Part of the expected rage nerf across the board that I thought was going to come. 5 rage isn't that bad, and I think it makes Soul of the Forest an almost go to talent.
    Lacerate: Expected rage nerf. 2 rage may be too little. 3 would have been expected more.
    Thrash: Expected rage nerf. Way too much rage generation on a few targets that you could just spam.
    Enhanced Tooth and Claw: Kind of an odd change. Remove the free procs and reduce its rage cost by 10.
    Nature's Vigil: Small buff. Making it look even better in that tier.
    Pulverize: Expected rage loss. Had to compromise somewhere to nerf it to be somewhat reasonable with the other talents in that row. 20% still seems really high, but with some of the fights we have tested, it isn't a talent we will use all of the time.
    Survival Instincts: 70% was really strong. 50% is fine.

    I don't believe Crit got that much more interesting. Haste still seems like the way to go for rage generation.

    I will get more thoughts in once I have tested it.

  18. #698
    I am downloading the latest build as we speak and anxious to test these changes but it certainly looks like overkill to me. (not that that's anything new for Blizz)

    I'll just go down the list here:

    Bear Form: Armor reduced by half. HALF. WHY? I know a lot of you are newer Druids (as in with the last couple years) but high armor was always a uniquely Druid thing. Last screenshot I got of my armor in Bear was at lv 96 with 2320 armor in ilvl 573 gear. My dmg reduction at that armor was base 50.99%, total with armor 51.32%. And that was before the armor was cut in half last night. Looking at Braindwen's numbers above, this nerf is a significant increase in dmg taken for us.

    Mangle: rage nerf
    Lacerate: rage nerf
    Thrash: rage nerf
    T&C Perk: rage nerf, really, what is the point of this perk now?
    Pulverize: rage nerf

    So rage nerfed across the board...and this comes after they have already made minor rage adjustments in previous builds. So lets see what could have been done that wouldn't have been overkill:

    Mangle: LEAVE IT ALONE!
    Lacerate: It's spammable so generating a large amount of rage would be OP, but 2-3 would be appropriate. 1 rage? A warrior in def stance sitting around with his thumb up his butt generates 1 rage every 3 (5?) seconds...
    Thrash: Thrash was ridiculous, I'll give you that.
    T&C Perk: It's a perk, it's supposed to be a BONUS. Perhaps an internal timer on how frequent it can proc would be more appropriate than gutting it altogether.
    Pulverize: This one makes me mad in and of itself. Another case of an ability we LOST turned talent we have to CHOOSE to get back. Well it's a 100 talent, it SHOULD be powerful. You blow 3 Lacerates (3 GCD's) to use it. By all means reduce the rage we get from it, but removing the rage altogether is overkill.

    Survival Instincts nerf, yeah 70% is prob a bit much, but I haven't looked over other tank cd's in awhile to compare.

  19. #699
    Bear Armor, SI, Thrash, and T&C nerfs are all completely fine.

    Mangle, Lacerate, and Pulverize nerfs are not.

    Going down to ~7.666 RPS (doesn't matter if you take GoE or Pulverize) and taking ~2000 rage stats to go up 1 RPS is atrocious.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Callsignecho View Post
    Just got in to looking at the patch notes:

    Bear Form: Seems like they want to go back to the % physical damage reduction in form vs. more armor.
    Mangle: Part of the expected rage nerf across the board that I thought was going to come. 5 rage isn't that bad, and I think it makes Soul of the Forest an almost go to talent.
    Lacerate: Expected rage nerf. 2 rage may be too little. 3 would have been expected more.
    Thrash: Expected rage nerf. Way too much rage generation on a few targets that you could just spam.
    Enhanced Tooth and Claw: Kind of an odd change. Remove the free procs and reduce its rage cost by 10.
    Nature's Vigil: Small buff. Making it look even better in that tier.
    Pulverize: Expected rage loss. Had to compromise somewhere to nerf it to be somewhat reasonable with the other talents in that row. 20% still seems really high, but with some of the fights we have tested, it isn't a talent we will use all of the time.
    Survival Instincts: 70% was really strong. 50% is fine.

    I don't believe Crit got that much more interesting. Haste still seems like the way to go for rage generation.

    I will get more thoughts in once I have tested it.
    To follow up on some testing:

    Maul is not worth using at all anymore with the rage nerfs. The absorb isn't worth it.
    Damage intake seems to be the same. Armor may have decreased by they seem to have given us back the physical damage reduction in Bear Form.
    Pulverize seems a little odd now that it doesn't generate rage and is just a damaging ability with the 20% DR, although the 20% damage reduction is still nice.
    Rage generation is noticeable. Mostly because we had ridiculous rage generation before, however, I can still survive just fine without all of the extra rage to burn. Spending rage is more meaningful now.
    Thrash still seems to give a ton of rage on 4-5 targets.

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