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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    You're assuming that Fire will keep cast-on-the-move scorch. They're removing that from Shaman's lb so safe to assume it will come off of scorch.
    Except they said it can be and will be still available as a move cast, the reasoning being that it allows Fire to continue to fish for procs.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceveda View Post
    (...)
    Casting on the move needs to be nerfed equally.
    This reminds me a bit of Animal Farm (by George Orwell):
    "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"

    Well this will be the case, how Blizzard handles this casting on the move "problem".

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    I believe that Class diversity is a good thing and if "everyone" has something then it makes sense for some classes to lose this. to lose some ability bloat, add more Class diversity, and make room for more innovative Spells..
    It's basic functionality though, as I explained in a later post. Not having a way to quickly ping something for low damage is akin to completely losing a gameplay option. In your example, it's like both classes losing all aoe completely, because diversity. It's not a way to counteract homogenisation of specs, it's just dumb.

    ????? So let me guess you want me to go on a goose chase gathering data for you proving to someone i don't care about that what am saying is true and in the end will still have no impact on anything and overall will still be a general waste of time? Fel Flame was a boring half broken spell that you used as a last resort. A spell like that isnt well made. Many things can be done to make it a more interesting, engaging/fun spell. Nice try tho buddy, like always i appreciate efforts taken from fellows like yourself makes me blush
    Way to completely miss the entire point of my post while focusing on yourself ;] Two thumbs up, would read again.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkArchon View Post
    I've played a Warlock for years and almost never would use Fel Flame....Very situational and see's very little use. Same with Soulshatter why it's getting removed also.
    My thoughts exactly... never used it much other than when I needed an on-the-go instant cast when soloing older raids. Duno about the pvp side of things but I cant imagine its too make or break.
    "If the people who are trying to destroy this world aren't taking a day off, then why should I?"

    -Bob Marley

  5. #165
    Old God Nerraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicBanana View Post
    My thoughts exactly... never used it much other than when I needed an on-the-go instant cast when soloing older raids. Duno about the pvp side of things but I cant imagine its too make or break.
    It's absolutely amazing for destro if you need to just knock off .5% hp of someone so you can Shadowburn them. Just last night I did it at least twice.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Just a quick note that dots will tag without needing to tick, and have done since very late in TBC. Everything else is spot on though. Remember they removed Searing Pain that gave us all that functionality because Fel Flame superseded it.
    Searing Pain that's a name i've not heard in a long time.

    "My name is Legion: for we are many." - Mark 5:9

  7. #167
    Old God Nerraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beerbill Society View Post
    Searing Pain that's a name i've not heard in a long time.
    I remember tanking Keleseth with that.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Aceveda View Post
    Since casting-on-the-move is getting nerfed, we know shamans are losing lightning bolt on the move, I think all should get nerfed equally.
    However, I'd rather see locks lose KJC, and keep Fel Flame.

    Mages get a speedboost perk with Scorch, so that shouldn't be useable on the move imo.
    Shammys lost their moving lightning bolt because they didn't had to sacrifice anything for it it's just spell baseline (before that was a glyph). Locks in the other hand have to choose his 90 level talent as it.

    Personally i like KJC as it is now.

    "My name is Legion: for we are many." - Mark 5:9

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Beerbill Society View Post
    Shammys lost their moving lightning bolt because they didn't had to sacrifice anything for it it's just spell baseline (before that was a glyph). Locks in the other hand have to choose his 90 level talent as it.

    Personally i like KJC as it is now.
    Yeah, that's the issue here and the point that's flying over your head: Without Fel Flame the other two talents just aren't as attractive anymore.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    It's gonna be nice to play against Shamans.
    LOL, let me have a look. it semms affi lock can cast Haunt to destro shaman's totem after romoving FF.

  11. #171
    Old God Nerraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shinewaylee View Post
    LOL, let me have a look. it semms affi lock can cast Haunt to destro shaman's totem after romoving FF.
    Oh yey, excellent use of the spell.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Yeah, that's the issue here and the point that's flying over your head: Without Fel Flame the other two talents just aren't as attractive anymore.
    Fair point. Make the Mannoroth one the overpowered fel flame and let KJC and AD be.

    Or as someone already pointed make a glyph of it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shinewaylee View Post
    LOL, let me have a look. it semms affi lock can cast Haunt to destro shaman's totem after romoving FF.
    It has been a long time without playing Shammy but what totem you still can destroy with one ff hit?

    "My name is Legion: for we are many." - Mark 5:9

  13. #173
    Blizzard needs to get off of their high horse. I enjoy the lore they established, but they are on a downward spiral, ruining the lore and ruining the game.


    In a PvE setting, Ice Block is a better version of Unbound Will, Dark Bargain, and Soulshatter wrapped into one. In a PvP setting, Ice Block is a better version of Unbound Will and Dark Bargain wrapped into one.


    Invisibility is a Mage's threat dump ability, like Soulshatter is our's. Invisibility removes two DoT's if talented for Greater Invisibility. Even if you place a talent point in Cauterize or Cold Snap, Invisibility is not removed, however, if you pick Greater Invisibility, which is in the same tier as Cauterize and Cold Snap, you still keep Invisibility, you just lose the weaker version of it.

    So Mages gets Iceblock (Unbound Will + Dark Bargain rolled into one) AND Invisibility, which not only removes threat, but can also removes DoT's, which Iceblock also does, and turns the Mage undetectable.

    Drain Soul is an iconic Warlock ability. Why would they remove Drain Soul? Why not remove Malefic Grasp instead? Blizzard shouldn't incorporate Drain Soul into Malefic Grasp, they should incorporate Malefic Grasp into Drain Soul. If Blizzard does indeed toss away Drain Soul, I wouldn't want Blizzard to make a glyph that changes Malefic Grasp's animation into that of Drain Soul's, I would want the glyph to actually change Malefic Grasp's name into Drain Soul.

    Demonic Gateway dumps aggro, and with the changes, we only have one aggro dump and can only dump threat every 90 seconds. Mages have Iceblock, Invisibility, and Mirror Images, all which temporarily removes threat. Blizzard states Warlocks bring too much utility to raids? Why not make Demonic Gateway only usable to the Warlock who created it?


    Enslave Demon IS ONLY NECESSARY FOR AN ENCOUNTER THAT IS OPTIONAL,THE KANRESCRUB ENCOUNTER. I HAVE NOT SEEN ENSLAVE DEMON IN THE LIST OF ABILITIES BEING REMOVED.

    How dare Blizzard take away an iconic Warlock ability, a knockback ability which is used more frequently than Enslave Demon, and our threat dump even though many classes have more than one way to drop threat.

    How dare Blizzard remove abilities that matter before Enslave Demon.

    I doubt Enslave Demon will be necessary for raid encounters. I doubt Enslave Demon will be necessary for PvP. If we can't permanently enslave a Demon, and our permanent summon-able Demons are more useful than the enslaved Demons, what is the purpose of keeping the Enslave Demon ability? I want to know the why.

    Lore-wise, Warlocks are more powerful than Mages. Blizzard butchers the lore. Blizzard butchers the game. All Warlocks should riot. Then they'll have no choice but to stop with these silly changes.
    Last edited by VisionOfPerfection; 2014-04-10 at 05:27 PM.

  14. #174
    Fel Flame should never have been introduced.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    I remember tanking Keleseth with that.
    Ugh, I still don't see why anyone ever used a warlock to tank Keleseth. You have two tanks, one tank on both melee mobs, the other tank on Keleseth. I mean, you'd think people would've learned after all the posts on the forums about warlocks getting melee crit by Keleseth in between casts.

    Even on 25-man heroic, the fight was designed for one tank on both melee mobs and one tank on the caster.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    Fel Flame should never have been introduced.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Ugh, I still don't see why anyone ever used a warlock to tank Keleseth. You have two tanks, one tank on both melee mobs, the other tank on Keleseth. I mean, you'd think people would've learned after all the posts on the forums about warlocks getting melee crit by Keleseth in between casts.

    Even on 25-man heroic, the fight was designed for one tank on both melee mobs and one tank on the caster.
    I tanked it on my SPriest and I don't remember ever having any issues with being crit. Multiple strats can work..

  16. #176
    The Patient Klingzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VisionOfPerfection View Post
    Demonic Gateway dumps aggro, and with the changes, we only have one aggro dump and can only dump threat every 90 seconds. Mages have Iceblock, Invisibility, and Mirror Images, all which temporarily removes threat. Blizzard states Warlocks bring too much utility to raids? Why not make Demonic Gateway only usable to the Warlock who created it?

    Enslave Demon IS ONLY NECESSARY FOR AN ENCOUNTER THAT IS OPTIONAL,THE KANRESCRUB ENCOUNTER. I HAVE NOT SEEN ENSLAVE DEMON IN THE LIST OF ABILITIES BEING REMOVED.

    Lore-wise, Warlocks are more powerful than Mages. Blizzard butchers the lore. Blizzard butchers the game. All Warlocks should riot. Then they'll have no choice but to stop with these silly changes.
    Does gateway still dump aggro? Thought that was gone after somewhere in the middle of MoP.

    My guess is that enslave will be useful in future expansions (legion-themed), and I actually like to know that i have the ability in my spellbook, even if i hardly use it. Flavor-stuff.

    Well us warlocks don't need to hide behind whimsy illusions, we're going all in!

  17. #177
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    Fel Flame should not removed. Not on the grounds of casting and moving, but because of a single talent and pvp.

    But we all have heard the same argument over and over..., that you get locked up in pvp, or kjc will be too powerful. So, let me play devils advocate for a second, and I will not include curse of elements for now. We are losing dot snap shotting. We are gaining dynamic dots, so that means... a buff lasts u 20 seconds? well yours dots are only going to be that more powerful for 20 seconds. So while, yes we are losing a movement cast, we are also gaining a few back in our old dots. (ill talk about destruction in a second). So what this means is Affliction can now refresh Corruption and Agony without worry about losing all of their dps from the opening dots, also while using life tap to have 3 buttons to press while moving, and even soul burn if you are prepping to cast the new haunt. So, that would a total of 4 for affliction on the move.

    And heres the whining now, from affliction users: but but... I dont need to immediately refresh them. Well... you have nothing better to do when u are running out of that fire. Be productive.

    For demonology, we have currently 2 global cool downs to play with, less than an affliction, with corruption and lifetap only in caster form. But, thats the thing, we also have metamorphosis, which includes an instant cast nuke filler, and another instant cast dot. Now, on the side, we do have hand of gul'dan, which is a 2 charge instant cast, but unless you are about to weave into demonology, I am highly against using the first cast, unless you are not moving to far, and are able to stop in a second, get out a cast of shadowbolt/soulfire, before using the 2nd cast of HoG and then weaving into meta, because, as it stands, the second charge will still be using meta boost of damage with the weaving, even without dot snapshotting, as it still takes a second or 2 before it collides, and if u are in meta, well... I do not need to talk about weaving. But. In, the end of the day, demonology actually has 5 globals it can use, if the player is correctly using his entire spec. This does not even include demonic leap.

    For whiners, but corruption will be powerful from the meta forms... nope, dynamic dots. It will only be powerful as you are in metamorphosis. Believe this is the same for doom as well, which means we are actually getting hit with a pretty big nerf.

    And Finally Destruction. The lone spec that actually has only one gcd to be used during movement. Oh wait. Nope. Rain of Fire as well. So you have 2 charges of conflag and Rain of Fire. So, yes, you have only two casts (if you are down to one charge of conflag), unless the target is in execute phase, which you get shadowburn, but for the majority, it will be 2. I do feel for you. But if you are going to whine, I do not care then, as I tend to use Archimondes darkness, even with this spec. While yes, we still have fel flame right now, over the period of time actually moving, I tend to actually lay down a Rain of Fire, even on a single target, as by the time RoF is up, the damage it has done is greater than a single fel flame I used to get out of something. (talking typical movement fights of getting out of stuff, like h iron juggernaut h nazgrim, not h/norm Dark shamans, as that is basically constant movement, which for that I usually go kjc myself, as i try and stay away from it as much as possible.)

    But, then, we also have Demonic Circle, which people tend to forget about, that was actually made simply for our movement in pve fights. Then I forgot to list all the potential Defensive cooldowns to use and help the Healers, or even talents, such as Grimore of Service. As it is, WoD, we will be fine in PvE fights. But thats it.

    Pvp is an entirely different scenario, and the main reason I need Fel Flame. As it is, our dots get dispelled, which for me, as a demo lock, kinda fks over my fury generation. Shadow bolt is to long of a cast, and gets interrupted, same with soul fire (though with mc procs its a bit faster). Not To mention, two interrupts, we are completely locked out of everything for 3, or is it 5?, seconds.

    This is also horrible for Affliction, as their main dot, to protect their other dots is a cast, and can be interrupted. While their nuke is a channel, which just simply stops the channel, they are entirely shadow based. So, if they get interrupted during fear or unstable affliction, they are completely locked out of every single spell.

    Finally, Destruction. if you are great at juking with chaos bolt, and forcing out an interrupt, then this has no consequence to u, but chaos bot is a freaking long ass cast, so it can easily be interrupted, locking you out of shadow spells, like fear and drain life (as it is considered shadow). But everything else is fire based magic (minus shadowburn ofc) and only they only have one instant, conflag (minus RoF). So, interrupting either Immolate or incinerate just kills destruction.

    While, they are trying to press Drain Life onto us, as pvpers, with all the buffs they are giving it and the perks, it will only go so far, before they all catch on and just lock us down even from using the pitiful excuse of drain life, as noone is going to take harvest life over dark regeneration (at least right now. Come WoD, for pvp, I dunno. With all the buffs they are giving drain life, it might actually produce more hp). but thats the thing, its a channel. It is interruptable. It will not produce enough damage, or generation of resources as fel flame does (fury and embers, dunno if actually produces a soul shard).

    The casting and moving is going to happen no matter what for PvP, as everyone already takes KJC, so it should not negate Fel Flame from the table.

    All Devil Advocate to the side, the major reason people want Fel Flame back, for pve, is simply so that they feel they can safely take the other 2 lvl 90 talents, which I can fully understand, currently with Dot Snappshotting. It is a good instant spell, that does good damage and resource generation (ember/fury) while being able to move, but comes with a hefty mana tax, which is good for to whether to use it or not (which we all still do if we are using AD or MF not kjc). But, as it is, I can only see it good for one class only for PvE purposes, that being Destruction, as they are far limited on movement then any of the other specs. yes, it is a great mini filler for all the specs, but come WoD, the only spec that will truly need it in PVE is destruction, so that everyone has something to do during moving.

    but For pvp, arena/rated bgs where pvper know what they are doing, unlike in regular bgs where you typically get to free cast, every spec truly needs this ability. for Affliction, it is a fire based spell as well (as it counts as fire/shadow), and gives them something to do while they are entirely locked out of their shadow spells, and hoping for a heal. For Demonology, it is their go to Fury generation spell, as shadow bolt will always be interrupted and corruption n doom will be dispelled almost instantly (they should make doom undispellable no matter what tho). For destruction, immolate and incinerate will be locked out almost instantly, and same with chaos bolt. They need something to cast/do besides just looking pretty and build their embers.

    This is not cataclysm, or wrath of lich king, where we only have soul shards for our secondary resource. We actually need to build up our secondary resources of embers and fury to be competitive in arena. (though for demonology, it looks like demonbolt will be the go to spell for pvp)

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Klingzor View Post
    Does gateway still dump aggro? Thought that was gone after somewhere in the middle of MoP.

    My guess is that enslave will be useful in future expansions (legion-themed), and I actually like to know that i have the ability in my spellbook, even if i hardly use it. Flavor-stuff.

    Well us warlocks don't need to hide behind whimsy illusions, we're going all in!
    Demonic Gateway still dumps aggro.

    No offense, but you've guessed wrong.

    Enslave Demon:


    Quote Originally Posted by VisionOfPerfection View Post
    ONLY NECESSARY FOR AN OPTIONAL
    Quote Originally Posted by VisionOfPerfection View Post
    ENCOUNTER
    The Burning Crusade is a Burning Legion themed expansion. Although Blizzard implemented many types of Demons in the Burning Crusade, the Enslave Demon ability was never necessary for the content.


    Carrion Swarm is used more frequently then Enslave Demon and is useful. Even though using Carrion Swarm isn't necessary, people tend to use it because it does something that makes the ability worth using.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by VisionOfPerfection View Post
    Demonic Gateway still dumps aggro.

    No offense, but you've guessed wrong.

    Enslave Demon:






    The Burning Crusade is a Burning Legion themed expansion. Although Blizzard implemented many types of Demons in the Burning Crusade, the Enslave Demon ability was never necessary for the content.


    Carrion Swarm is used more frequently then Enslave Demon and is useful. Even though using Carrion Swarm isn't necessary, people tend to use it because it does something that makes the ability worth using.
    Enslave demon was necessary on High Lord Maulgar. The Felhunter pet in that encounter was brutal if it wasn't enslaved and I never once saw a kill where it wasn't enslaved.

  20. #180
    The Patient Klingzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VisionOfPerfection View Post
    Demonic Gateway still dumps aggro.

    [words]

    Carrion Swarm is used more frequently then Enslave Demon and is useful. Even though using Carrion Swarm isn't necessary, people tend to use it because it does something that makes the ability worth using.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9573318977 says otherwise. And I was pretty sure that i noticed the missing aggro dump myself. Anyways, the aggro dump-complaint is only valid if aggro dumps will still be needed.

    Well, i never said that enslave has to be mandatory. DK's control undead isn't either, but i thought it was nice to have in certain situations. And my guess was that we might see some use of it in solo play and/or 5mans. As for BC, enslave was definitely used more often than now.

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