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  1. #781
    Deleted
    If the only spells we're left with are healing ones, movement, defensive and cooldowns I don't really care, remove some of the useless crap and give us some sexy new spells not cooldowns, but "rotational" spells.

    I know eveyrones sort of complaining about our mastery attunement thing but we have no idea what the healing model is like in raids at the moment, so who knows maybe mastery is a really sick stat in WoD or at least for the first tier. Don't get me wrong I actually laughed out loud for real when I read it, considering any shaman worth their salt right now is gearing crit out mainly, not sure about 10 man so much.

    Surely though in some of their internal raid testing they've obviously thought that "Hey mastery is actually pretty strong for shaman in this model". As much as everyone thinks they ignore the community I'm sure they aren't daft. Although sometimes thats hard to justify.

    I'm quite surprised that condensation totem is still there as a talent, I mean out of that tier you would of assumed that surely just the idea of it let alone proper testing would make it need change or a complete revamp. I'm still waiting for an alpha note section stating it was removed or reworked.

  2. #782
    Deleted
    I do not get why don't they just make WS baseline passive for resto? Activates the visual people seem to be so clingy about, the very moment you turn your resto spec on. Gives all the benefits it used to give, but you never, ever have to cast it again. Sounds like a reasonable thing to do? Passive, just with a visual.

  3. #783
    Scarab Lord Anzaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    I wish WS stayed dead, they can add a neat glpyh like Tree form for druids if people want it.
    And soon they'd need to add few extra minor glyph slots. >_<

  4. #784
    Am I reading this wrong or did they just remove the mp5 part and keep the mana return from getting hit?

  5. #785
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Blithe View Post
    Really? I refuse to cast Lightning Bolt so long as it stays at a 2.5 second cast time with its lackluster damage. No other healer really has to do that with their 1.5 second cast times. It's noticeably irritating because it feels like you're putting in too much effort for not much return.
    I completely agree, thats my problem with lightning bolt and it being part of active regen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripply View Post
    If the only spells we're left with are healing ones, movement, defensive and cooldowns I don't really care, remove some of the useless crap and give us some sexy new spells not cooldowns, but "rotational" spells.

    I know eveyrones sort of complaining about our mastery attunement thing but we have no idea what the healing model is like in raids at the moment, so who knows maybe mastery is a really sick stat in WoD or at least for the first tier. Don't get me wrong I actually laughed out loud for real when I read it, considering any shaman worth their salt right now is gearing crit out mainly, not sure about 10 man so much.

    Surely though in some of their internal raid testing they've obviously thought that "Hey mastery is actually pretty strong for shaman in this model". As much as everyone thinks they ignore the community I'm sure they aren't daft. Although sometimes thats hard to justify.

    I'm quite surprised that condensation totem is still there as a talent, I mean out of that tier you would of assumed that surely just the idea of it let alone proper testing would make it need change or a complete revamp. I'm still waiting for an alpha note section stating it was removed or reworked.
    Well the thing is, I don't believe the theorycrafting has changed one bit on whether crit vs. mastery, as long as you take the Non-AA theorycrafting to consider, just look at the chart I'm taking from lifeingroup5 on it: http://lifeingroup5.com/wp-content/u...AA-Scaling.jpg

    Cross point is 64%, so basically for mastery to become better than crit, the person you're healing has to be below 64% health. I don't know about you, but I find that highly unlikely that Blizzard can even design raid encounters that keep the raid below that health level and not require you to spam the hell out of heals(Because the damage has to be fairly high to constantly knock people that low)

    Of course, thats only the crit vs. mastery. You ever wonder why they never ask "What about haste?" Answer is always clear, haste is always good(but harder to compare due to the negative effects on regen), hesitant to say how multistrike will work out(For any healer), and versatility, well, it might be a dull stat, but it does unquestionably increase output.

  6. #786
    Quote Originally Posted by xpolockx View Post
    I actually really enjoy casting lightning bolts during free globals (along with lava bursts), and ever since Wrath have enjoyed the active mana regen aspect... so I hope they're not scrapping that entirely. To me, it's pretty fun gameplay, as long as our mana regen isn't balanced around assuming free globals for dps. I just like feeling like I'm taking a smart, active role in my mana regen, as opposed to just standing around not casting to regen mana. Reminds me too much of the 5 sec rule from vanilla, haha.

    Though, LBs will be more of a pain to cast now that we have to be stationary to cast them again... alas.
    Be mindful that not everyone likes that playstyle if they bring it back as completely skippable it'd be ok

    Mastery perk attunement points in two possible directions blizz is mocking resto shamans or they don't get what our problems are at all, that's like putting salt in the wound
    Quote Originally Posted by Andromedes View Post
    Welcome to the Alliance, faction of compromises and unfulfilled desires. Want Vrykul? Here is compromise in form of kul tiran half giants we never heard of. Wanna High elves? Here is compromise in form of void elves we never heard of. Wanna broken draenei? awww fuck it
    About ganking ("world pvp") being dead now
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    Maybe you could wear a mask and push over little kids while they walk home from school instead?

  7. #787
    Pit Lord Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpdrichard View Post
    Be mindful that not everyone likes that playstyle if they bring it back as completely skippable it'd be ok

    Mastery perk attunement points in two possible directions blizz is mocking resto shamans or they don't get what our problems are at all, that's like putting salt in the wound
    I used to pretend that our design plans or schematics were lost in some disaster at Blizzard and that's the excusable reason as to why we have so many problems and faults but that's just trying to cover up the fact that Blizzard doesn't actually know what to do with us at all.

  8. #788
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by rpdrichard View Post
    Be mindful that not everyone likes that playstyle if they bring it back as completely skippable it'd be ok

    Mastery perk attunement points in two possible directions blizz is mocking resto shamans or they don't get what our problems are at all, that's like putting salt in the wound
    The reason Mastery sucks right now is because of how the healing game works currently. Everyone sits are very high health levels and healings just try and snipe the people who take damage back to full hp. It's still yet to be seen if it will actually end up being the case, but in WoD they have said they want healing to be much more about Triage again. That is where our Mastery is very powerful. If everyone spends 100% of fights hovering between 30% and 70% hp (healers never having enough time to top people off, only get them out of danger) our Mastery will be kick ass. They are (attempting too) change the whole healing game back to the way it worked in early Cata, don't try and apply WoD changes to live gameplay without applying all the changes together.

  9. #789
    I don't think they don't know what to do with shaman, I think they have models for how they think everything is suppose to work, and they simply haven't grasped the fact that their models of how restoration shamans are suppose to work and how they do work are not in agreement. From responses seen, clearly they think mastery will be fine, but looking at how they itemized tier/etc in the past(including current tier), they clearly had to think mastery was good for shaman to do so(The old line of at the start of the expansion gear won't have perfect stats but by the last tier it will comes to mind, and for shaman, they tried to stuff mastery down throats - Clearly they must think mastery's performance is much greater than it actually is)

    I would suspect their problem with mastery's performance is they are making the very big mistake of not including the effects of other healers(Because mastery is fantastic, if you're solo healing, but as you add more healers, suddenly people's health goes up, especially if those healers heals can land before yours)

  10. #790
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    The reason Mastery sucks right now is because of how the healing game works currently. Everyone sits are very high health levels and healings just try and snipe the people who take damage back to full hp. It's still yet to be seen if it will actually end up being the case, but in WoD they have said they want healing to be much more about Triage again. That is where our Mastery is very powerful. If everyone spends 100% of fights hovering between 30% and 70% hp (healers never having enough time to top people off, only get them out of danger) our Mastery will be kick ass. They are (attempting too) change the whole healing game back to the way it worked in early Cata, don't try and apply WoD changes to live gameplay without applying all the changes together.
    I understand but I healed at the beggining of the Cataclysm where the triage model was first introduced and our mastery sucked anyway there too
    Quote Originally Posted by Andromedes View Post
    Welcome to the Alliance, faction of compromises and unfulfilled desires. Want Vrykul? Here is compromise in form of kul tiran half giants we never heard of. Wanna High elves? Here is compromise in form of void elves we never heard of. Wanna broken draenei? awww fuck it
    About ganking ("world pvp") being dead now
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    Maybe you could wear a mask and push over little kids while they walk home from school instead?

  11. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpdrichard View Post
    I understand but I healed at the beggining of the Cataclysm where the triage model was first introduced and our mastery sucked anyway there too
    Mastery didn't suck, Haste was just really strong until the Haste cap then Crit helped with mana problems and Ancestral Healing. Going to have to wait and see exact numbers before we can work out if this will be the case again, but clearly from the emphasis they are putting on Mastery in WoD they don't think it will be this way. Mana seems like it will be much less of an issue with the sweeping removal of spirit, reducing the value of crit (and Ancestral Awakening is gone too), so I think it will be a close run thing between Haste and Mastery.

  12. #792
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    The reason Mastery sucks right now is because of how the healing game works currently. Everyone sits are very high health levels and healings just try and snipe the people who take damage back to full hp. It's still yet to be seen if it will actually end up being the case, but in WoD they have said they want healing to be much more about Triage again. That is where our Mastery is very powerful. If everyone spends 100% of fights hovering between 30% and 70% hp (healers never having enough time to top people off, only get them out of danger) our Mastery will be kick ass. They are (attempting too) change the whole healing game back to the way it worked in early Cata, don't try and apply WoD changes to live gameplay without applying all the changes together.
    So the problem with bringing up Cataclysm healing model, where mastery was good at the start is two fold(First, notice how I said at the start. Did you stack mastery in dragon soul? I know I didn't, because int&haste were king)

    The second issue? In cataclysm when they changed heal crits from 150% to 200%, before that the graph looked like this: http://lifeingroup5.com/wp-content/u...h_1.5Multr.jpg and you see that nice little point being at 84%, but after the change, that graph changes to http://lifeingroup5.com/wp-content/u...AA-Scaling.jpg with the point at 64%. Easier to say "Yeah, mastery better if the raid is below 84%" than it is to say 64%

    Then again there's the effects haste plays in things, notice how above I point out in cata that haste takes off. Sure in a vacuum mastery at low health can beat the crap out of haste. But you don't heal in a vacuum, you got healing partners who are also going to heal that low health person. They likely will be going for things such as haste and hitting the target before you, and thus meaning when your heal lands, they're higher health and not giving you as much of a boost from mastery.

    Now when I talk about keeping the raid below 64% health to make shaman mastery good(Which is what the model explicitly has to do, unless they decide to nerf crit to not be a 200% modifier), that means they have to have damage incoming so high that keeps people at sub 2/3rds of their health pool, but still have time to heal them back up before the next burst comes(Basically looks like healthbar yoyos to me if they do such a thing), and that would have to be a majority of encounters doing that(Because who wants to say "I want to have mastery gear for these 3 fights, but crit for the rest")

  13. #793
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    @Zacvriin

    I assume those graphs are calculated with Cataclysm healing values as well? A lot has changed number wise since then, Ancestral Awakening is no longer a thing either which also nerfs crit. It may well end up that Haste is still better than Mastery, but I'm pretty sure that Mastery will be much more effective than it is right now.

  14. #794
    The first graph is the cata one and second is the mop one, and I intentionally picked out the non-AA ones(Because the ones with AA move in cata I think the value to the 70s% and for mop to the 40s)

    Edit: As far as mastery being better than now, its hard to say that without actual doing things in the model with them(Basically game of whether the dumbing down of smart heals counterbalances the boost that would have occured). I'll leave Tiberria to argue that point.

    2nd Edit: Also don't see any boost to mastery making it as Blizzard implied with their attunements to be the best throughput stat for Resto(They could've taken the easy way and put it as haste and people wouldn't have been like "What the...")
    Last edited by Zaxvriin; 2014-06-14 at 03:16 PM.

  15. #795
    Pit Lord Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxvriin View Post
    I don't think they don't know what to do with shaman, I think they have models for how they think everything is suppose to work, and they simply haven't grasped the fact that their models of how restoration shamans are suppose to work and how they do work are not in agreement. From responses seen, clearly they think mastery will be fine, but looking at how they itemized tier/etc in the past(including current tier), they clearly had to think mastery was good for shaman to do so(The old line of at the start of the expansion gear won't have perfect stats but by the last tier it will comes to mind, and for shaman, they tried to stuff mastery down throats - Clearly they must think mastery's performance is much greater than it actually is)

    I would suspect their problem with mastery's performance is they are making the very big mistake of not including the effects of other healers(Because mastery is fantastic, if you're solo healing, but as you add more healers, suddenly people's health goes up, especially if those healers heals can land before yours)
    If it's effective in PvE, it's more often than not too strong in PvP and that's why they can't buff it and why we're asking for it to be changed.

  16. #796
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxvriin View Post
    The first graph is the cata one and second is the mop one, and I intentionally picked out the non-AA ones(Because the ones with AA move in cata I think the value to the 70s% and for mop to the 40s)
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxvriin View Post
    Edit: As far as mastery being better than now, its hard to say that without actual doing things in the model with them(Basically game of whether the dumbing down of smart heals counterbalances the boost that would have occured). I'll leave Tiberria to argue that point.

    2nd Edit: Also don't see any boost to mastery making it as Blizzard implied with their attunements to be the best throughput stat for Resto(They could've taken the easy way and put it as haste and people wouldn't have been like "What the...")
    I think the increase in value of Mastery is going to come from the spell value changes and healing meta-game changes rather than changes to Mastery itself. All these numbers are still subject to change and interpretation, but I would just be surprised if Mastery didn't end up more valuable than it is now. I'll accept I'm wrong if this is not the case, I just wanted to make a point that a lot of things are still up in the air right now and saying that Blizzard has no idea what they are doing with Resto Attunement by trying to put that change into a live environment setting is wrong.

  17. #797
    if they whant to keep raid health lower in WoD then what the point of condensation totem it just make no sense and it work against HST so shamans will have only 1 option that tier

  18. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrinvisable2 View Post
    if they whant to keep raid health lower in WoD then what the point of condensation totem it just make no sense and it work against HST so shamans will have only 1 option that tier
    Condensation Totem does seem very out of place with not just the philosophy of WoD, but the Shaman class in general. It directly works against our Mastery. I have a feeling it is intended for Shaman who are being tank healers or for encounters with consistent burst damage with lulls in between. I definitely think it is the weakest of the three, and will likely be a niche pick.

    I'm not sure saying Resto will only have one choice in the tier is right though. It totally depends on how strong Storm Elemental's healing is. Its a choice between another Healing Cooldown and a consistent passive healing buff.

  19. #799
    The removal of wild mushroom bloom and spirit shell and nerf to priest level 90 talents is a significant buff to deep healing mastery. even in 2 healing 10 man, our mastery was overshadowed by ridiculous sniping powers of some classes.

    As much as Druids and disc priests are probably stewing, this gives me hope for our mastery.

  20. #800
    Quote Originally Posted by chandy View Post
    The removal of wild mushroom bloom and spirit shell and nerf to priest level 90 talents is a significant buff to deep healing mastery. even in 2 healing 10 man, our mastery was overshadowed by ridiculous sniping powers of some classes.

    As much as Druids and disc priests are probably stewing, this gives me hope for our mastery.
    No, it really isn't. All Spirit Shell does is convert raw healing to absorbs at a 1:1 ratio while it's active. If people are not at 100% HP (which is what they claim will constantly be the case in WoD), there isn't much inherent advantage in Spirit Shell over just doing the same healing without it. WM: Bloom was a pretty insignificant factor in the value of Shaman mastery; it was pretty niche whether it was even worth using a lot of the time, and was usually <5% of Druid output.

    In short, I don't see either of those changes doing anything gamebreaking. The Spirit Shell change would be a lot more impactful on live than it will be in the 6.0 healing model.

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