Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
6
LastLast
  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    Have you actually compared the environment in voice chat with ... you know ... sword and sorcery and all that shit?
    If I play Monopoly with a friend, I don't expect him to speak to me in 1930s slang or wear a top-hat. Raiding is a team effort and rapid communications are naturally conducive to any team effort. It's also a social event for many (probably most) of us and I'm more interested in hearing about my guildmates' lives than in maintaining your delusions of being a sorcerer. Voice communications make raids more engaging for me. And for most others, I'd wager.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    See, that's the rub. I did Flex PUGs in the first month of SoO with people in 520-530 gear and we got through them just fine. But now that so many less-experienced/committed/skilled players have higher item level gear from LFR (536), Celestials (561), Ordos (567), legendary cloak (608) and whatever they might have had their friends help boost them out of flex and normal, the item level requirements for most PUGs have shot through the roof. It's not uncommon to see people demanding 550+ for Flex 3/4 on my server and you basically can't get into a Flex under 530, which is massive overkill for Flex. We started normals at 530 and 550 is over-geared for anything short of Garrosh (which is tuned for 545-550).

    Meanwhile, a lot of more experienced players have graduated away from Flex entirely, decreasing the overall competency of the Flex-PUG pool. I have just finished getting my 5th alt Flex-ready, but I doubt I will spend more than 2-3 weeks running Flex on him before moving to normal as he is already 533.
    Flex right now is that nice little precursor to raiding at Normal. And outside of the Dungeon/LFR/Flex/Normal/HC grind I did on my main, there's no way in hell I'd ever consider putting an alt through it all. Especially with Timeless Isle. My DK had a simple evolution. Timeless Isle -> Some LFR (two 13/14 runs) -> Flex. It's not even a case of only wanting to tackle content when overgeared, but more a case of only tackling content to get gear. It's not a situation where the content is a challenge.

    So hence as I'm sure like other people, I'd rather not be in a situation where there's wipes happening. I don't mind if they do, but I'd rather not. I remember doing Flex 1 at like 510 or something. Flex 2 at a little bit more with Flex 3 and 4 being done at around 525. Sure, there's folk out here who've done normal at those levels and good for them, but that was my progression on my main. I started doing PVE only maybe in November 2013 or something, though I started WoW in September 2013.

    If I was a fresh 90 with no main at all, I'd be extremely crushed that Flex had stupid requirements like 'Flex 1 540 RUSH' because it puts a gear wall around content that can absolutely be done by lesser geared folk. It's just people want the absolute safest option possible. But I guess that's why you have the cesspool that is LFR. The issue is that Blizzard have just constantly devalued content as they've gone along. Purple gear should be gear with the absolute highest equity. There shouldn't even be more than two tiers of ilevel. But because EVERYBODY wants it, they create 'lite' purple gear in order to please people who'd have a heart attack if they had blue and Joe down the road had purple.

    I'm digressing here and talking gear but let me pontificate. Kinda.

    1. Leveling (Gear is Grey/White)
    2. Leveling Content for Groups (White/Green)
    3. Story Mode Endgame Content for Groups (Green)
    4. Hard Mode Endgame Content for Groups (Green/Blue)
    5. Story Mode Endgame Content for Big Groups (Blue)
    6. Hard Mode Endgame Content For Big Groups (Blue/Purple)

    Purple once again becomes the point of highest equity for gear and representative of successfully completing content. This isn't the point I originally made but it becomes about resetting the value of things. Right now WoW is kinda like a booming economy. Everyone's got a house and car whilst some folk have amazing houses and cars. Blizzard, being the ever charitable banker, hands tokens out to everyone to keep them happy and whine free. But a lot of people are just getting it as a form of faux welfare. To keep them happy. Not because they earned it. Real welfare is handed out to people who absolutely cannot provide for themselves. This is welfare just for people who are mad that someone else COULD provide for themselves but they're too lazy to go in and put in the effort required so they cry foul and ask for it in some form too.

    It's silly. I'm guilty of it too, but I'm sure were I to be given the chance to progress through White/Green/Blue/Purple, I'd do it. Just give me the option to lose out first instead of assuming failure or concession and throwing sweets at me to keep the blood sugar pumping. Right now everyone in LFR/Flex/Normal has their blood sugar super high. We're all diabetic and addicted to that sweet. We want it. Straight into the veins. Nothing else works. Someone in the way? Fuck. Build a wall. They sneak through anyway? Burn 'em! Welcome to Flex at high ilevels.
    Last edited by Valkyrst; 2014-04-09 at 11:20 AM.

  3. #83
    This is actually one of the reasons I prefer the in-game group finder, as bad as it is, to OQ.

    OQ has no way to add any information (ie, 10/14HM main, know fights) to your ilevel and other basic information.

    Nor can you whisper a player and ask for achievements, or a group leader and link them.

    I've had no problems getting Flex groups at 505-515 linking achievements, definitely not for the first couple of wings.

  4. #84
    I usually found it easier to start my own and armory people for achieves/gear and found it to be way more successful than trying to join a random one.

  5. #85
    The Patient Aureth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    North
    Posts
    330
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenjen View Post
    we're reaching the usual end of expansion slow down season. During which people (quite a lot of the skilled base) have achieved what they wanted and go on hiatus. With very few of them logging in occasionally (usually to do AH and prof stuff or the very rare bit of raiding/item collecting).

    Less skilled people around to pull the weight.
    I think this about nails it. With spring coming/kinda here depending on where you live-and then summer, that alone gets people away from their computers more often. This year I think it'll be even moreso due to the really nasty winter the US had. Couple those two things with the fact it's the end of the expansion, that there is likely going to be either no or very little extra content until the next expac...AND the fact people might need to yet again live through a very long final patch?* It all leads to 'people going on hiatus/unsubbing for awhile/at the very least just not raiding but hunting achievements or leveling alts if they are playing.'

    LFR/Flex will probably get worse before it gets better at this point, though I don't think it's *too* late yet if you find the best uptimes. Around June+ though I wouldn't expect much from Heroic dungeon groups let alone Flex raids. (The boosted 90s are also a bit of an issue here as well, along with everything else mentioned.)

    *Which is, mind you, why I think waiting too long on the next expansion is going to bite them in the ass if they do it, but that's a bit of a different topic.
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    An obvious exaggeration, but I've had several people with this attitude screw up very basic encounter mechanics because they weren't in mumble for explanations and couldn't pay attention to it in chat.
    Exaggeration that only serves to hurt your argument.

    Let's start by defining "necessary" here then, because I'm just adopting the definition the QQers are using. Voice communication is not ever necessary in WoW, not even for heroic Garrosh. A deaf person could play WoW and beat every encounter in the game. So what's there to QQ about (remember, the topic is banning voice comms from WoW)? It's a competitive advantage, and therefore deemed "necessary" by many. And that adds to the game, in my opinion. If you want content designed to be done without those competitive advantages, you have it. It's called LFR.
    What competition is there after the world/server first is finished? Very little.

    Most of these raids that demand voice chat aren't competing against anything except killing the last boss.

    Again, I could agree if we were talking solely about the heroic raiding tier - but this thread is about Flex and what competition is there in a Flex raid against other Flex raids?

    Many raids were also very simple in comparison to modern encounters, so this argument is stupid.
    Chicken and the egg argument. Raid encounter difficulty had to be ramped up to account for the additions of voice chat and raid helper addons. Those addons were then ramped up to be more helpful, requiring raids to be ramped up even further.

    Years ago, those raid encounters weren't so "simple" when you didn't have addons like Deadly Boss Mods telegraphing everything to you and you were instead expected to keep track of it in your head. The devs also didn't "expect" someone to be screaming on voice chat for someone to move out of the fire so they accounted for people needing to type.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arcaneshot View Post
    You need to look at your timing better, because voice chat existed before WoW did.

    Ventrilo: Initial release August 3, 2002

    WoW: Release date(s) AUS / NA November 23, 2004
    I was raiding in EQ1 before 2002.

  7. #87
    The Patient Kowloon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Walled City
    Posts
    322
    Well, yeah. Now most of the groups you join probably don't have people carrying others.

    What a surprise, people will have to actually learn the game now! Learn how to do boss mechanics and learn how to play their class properly.

    So turn off the 2nd desktop that's streaming Netflix movies or tv shows, shut down the television, put the food down, no more whispering others constantly during boss pulls, etc.

    Give the game your full attention.
    In the company of thieves, liars, beggars and whores
    I'll lay waiting, just waiting for my time to come.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    How is voicecomms a disruption to immersion? Are all the heros in raids mute in lore?
    I think he is referencing about how voice chat tends to devolve into people talking about things not related to the game. You know, like how they went out drinking last weekend or how much of an athlete they are in bed.

    I can't imagine people talking in a roleplay manner on voice chat though - at least not during a raid.

  9. #89
    Stood in the Fire Smitus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    MA, USA
    Posts
    451
    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    This is kind of idiotic. Do you mind if I call you idiotic? What I mean to say is that you're an idiot.
    I hope this got infractioned otherwise MMO mods running a pretty high double standard
    Smitus! Of the guild <Smitus and Friends> on Sargeras, formally on Turalyon.
    http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...ting.tier16_25
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...mitus/advanced

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    It's silly. I'm guilty of it too, but I'm sure were I to be given the chance to progress through White/Green/Blue/Purple, I'd do it. Just give me the option to lose out first instead of assuming failure or concession and throwing sweets at me to keep the blood sugar pumping. Right now everyone in LFR/Flex/Normal has their blood sugar super high. We're all diabetic and addicted to that sweet. We want it. Straight into the veins. Nothing else works. Someone in the way? Fuck. Build a wall. They sneak through anyway? Burn 'em! Welcome to Flex at high ilevels.
    I'd just rather item color removed entirely or changed to actually represent the popularity of the item - as in, if only a few are wearing that piece of gear, then it is orange. If thousands are wearing that piece - it's blue. If everyone and their brother has it on, then it's white.

    Ultimately, I'd just rather no item colors at all. Blizzard bases the item color on the itemlevel point multiplier for the item. That doesn't mean the individual piece of gear will be better - it may have those itemlevel points burnt off in useless secondary ratings for your class - with Blizzard's system, purple is still purple and people still seem to think it's always better though.
    Last edited by Raeln; 2014-04-09 at 03:07 PM.

  11. #91
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Minnesnowta
    Posts
    3,373
    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    Voice comm is a great convenience. It is also a huge disruption to immersion. When someone comes up with a way to make voice chat immersive (as in, people speak in-character with character-appropriate voices) then let me know. Until then, it can go fuck itself.

    And voice comm is in no way necessary for raiding at any level. However it obviously makes many encounters easier, and makes learning them faster.
    We used voice comms in Everquest. That was 98/99. Relic raids in Dark Age of Camelot demanded that group leaders had voice comms. Chat spam was impossible to use. That was 2001. People respond to voice commands far faster than reading chat which is the reason it's used. You don't have to look down and read when it's coming directly into your ear.

    This is also why I started using VEM instead of DBM/Bigwigs. The audible notification is far more efficient. But if you want to hurt the group and yourself due to immersion after you've killed a boss 15 times in LFR, go right ahead.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    We used voice comms in Everquest. That was 98/99. Relic raids in Dark Age of Camelot demanded that group leaders had voice comms. Chat spam was impossible to use. That was 2001. People respond to voice commands far faster than reading chat which is the reason it's used. You don't have to look down and read when it's coming directly into your ear.

    This is also why I started using VEM instead of DBM/Bigwigs. The audible notification is far more efficient. But if you want to hurt the group and yourself due to immersion after you've killed a boss 15 times in LFR, go right ahead.
    Lol did someone really say that voice chat ruins immersion?

    I suppose in the fantasy realm people only type... And read... All this time we thought fantasy people talked to one another!

  13. #93
    When people say "voice chat ruins immersion", I can't help but think what they mean is "I might find out that hawt elf chick is really a middle-aged man", and have their fantasies ruined.

    Either that, or they might get outed as not being a hawt elf chick.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    We used voice comms in Everquest. That was 98/99. Relic raids in Dark Age of Camelot demanded that group leaders had voice comms. Chat spam was impossible to use. That was 2001. People respond to voice commands far faster than reading chat which is the reason it's used. You don't have to look down and read when it's coming directly into your ear.

    What voice comm application did you use in 1998?

    This is also why I started using VEM instead of DBM/Bigwigs. The audible notification is far more efficient. But if you want to hurt the group and yourself due to immersion after you've killed a boss 15 times in LFR, go right ahead.
    This is exactly why I dislike addons in general. I mean I use them - I'm not a purist, but I'd just rather developers build a solid game with no addons rather than let the community build addons that only lead to being "required" or you get to hear how much you are "hurting the group by choosing not to use them."

    The icing on the cake is when these same folks telling you that you are hurting them by not using addons turn around the next day and cry about how easy the game has become. /rolleyes




    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JemiS View Post
    When people say "voice chat ruins immersion", I can't help but think what they mean is "I might find out that hawt elf chick is really a middle-aged man", and have their fantasies ruined.

    Either that, or they might get outed as not being a hawt elf chick.
    For me it's more about being forced to listen to 24 others go on about this or that in their lives rather than focus on the task at hand in the game.

    I have literally been on ventrilo where the raid leader had to type out the raid strategy anyway because some individuals simply would not shutup and let the RL have the channel.

    No, I don't know why they didn't just set the channel to moderated. I can only guess the RL didn't have the authority on the vent server.
    Last edited by Raeln; 2014-04-09 at 04:23 PM.

  15. #95
    Skipped a couple pages, but has anyone thought to mention that the 'good flexes' are now doing Normals crossrealm ? Or even heroics.

  16. #96
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Minnesnowta
    Posts
    3,373
    Quote Originally Posted by Raeln View Post
    What voice comm application did you use in 1998?
    Roger Wilco in 99. Hence 98/99. It was extremely popular for Cstrike users and carried over the MMO's.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Roger Wilco in 99. Hence 98/99. It was extremely popular for Cstrike users and carried over the MMO's.
    I can tell you that it was not "extremely popular" as I was hardcore progression raiding in 2001 to 2004 and there was never a single mention of Roger Wilco anywhere. We didn't even hear of it on our server boards.

    Myself and a small group of our raid team tried to get our raid to move to Teamspeak and there was no interest as we were progressing nicely without it.

    I won't speak for the CStrike genre but most of the folks that I know playing MMO/MUDs back in 1998-2002 era were on dialup and that would have had issues supporting voice chat.

    These days, even marginal DSL packages will carry voice chat without a problem but 14 years ago? Broadband was a whimsical dream to most of the US population. I was lucky and got my DSL installed sometime between 2000-2001 (I now even work for the company) but I know people that lived in much larger population areas that didn't get their broadband for years later.

  18. #98
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    getting a coffee
    Posts
    4,455
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Roger Wilco in 99. Hence 98/99. It was extremely popular for Cstrike users and carried over the MMO's.
    roger wilco was a notable voice chat software, but not supremely popular.
    My weekly podcast can be downloaded here this week we discuss the Warlords of Draenor launch night and a butcher that goes insane

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    roger wilco was a notable voice chat software, but not supremely popular.
    Not to mention it was bought by Gamespy around 2000-2001 and went subscription based.

  20. #100
    As someone who loves to raid, on many different alts, I complete flex pugs through the in game raid browser weekly. Rarely do I have problems with groups. In any fail pug situation, you are just as to blame for joining a bad group as the group is for being bad.

    Always armory at least the raid leader, if not the tanks and healers also. If you don't bother to check them out, don't be surprised when you wipe. I would rather wait in queue for a good group to pop up than join a group led by a character that is missing 8 enchants, no reforging and has 10 empty gem sockets. If someone cares about raiding, it shows in their character preparation. Another big one for me, has the RL completed the wing at least once before on that character (usually only check for wings 3 and 4).

    Quick simple things that can make a big difference on the quality of your experience. Does it always work? No. Does it mean all other groups are bad? No, but it sure can help save you some repair money.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •