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  1. #1

    Vengeance Spikes

    Been getting it randomly time to time. Not sure if it is just 'random' or something is up with it. Seems to happen more on garrosh and nazgrim.

    Anyway, tanking casually on 14/14 H farm , pulled first boss and I got 370k vengeance on second white attack (?) . Then it kept dropping obviously and had around 200 k with 6-7 stacks and boss hitting me , pretty normal. But wtf is that random spike ? Happened on nazgrim 2 weeks ago also, had around 500k vengeance spike after first white hit after execute during berserker stance. Also happened on garrosh this week on pull , had around 450k on 3rd melee hit.

    Are the bosses actually using crushing blow or is it totally random? And no, I am not sitting to get crit in my face or some other retarded shit like that.

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    Been getting it randomly time to time. Not sure if it is just 'random' or something is up with it. Seems to happen more on garrosh and nazgrim.

    Anyway, tanking casually on 14/14 H farm , pulled first boss and I got 370k vengeance on second white attack (?) . Then it kept dropping obviously and had around 200 k with 6-7 stacks and boss hitting me , pretty normal. But wtf is that random spike ? Happened on nazgrim 2 weeks ago also, had around 500k vengeance spike after first white hit after execute during berserker stance. Also happened on garrosh this week on pull , had around 450k on 3rd melee hit.

    Are the bosses actually using crushing blow or is it totally random? And no, I am not sitting to get crit in my face or some other retarded shit like that.
    You're not the only one getting these spikes. I have no idea exactly what causes them, since bosses can neither crit, nor is there such a thing as crushing blows on tanks any more, but I've seen 700k vengeance on-pull in 25 before - and Garrosh is, as you say, the most common offender. I've personally also seen it on Siegecrafter and Thok.

    My best guess is a bug in the algorithm that calculates vengeance, but to be honest I'm every bit as baffled as you are.

  3. #3
    The first hit gives extra vengeance, but i dont know how much

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by megabeat View Post
    The first hit gives extra vengeance, but i dont know how much
    How can you know that? :P

    Afaik vengeance gets higher and higher over time the more times you get hit. My vengeance on garrosh progressively gets higher. Normally 200k on first hit, then goes up to 380k at end of first phase. Sometimes around 400k if I don't parry/dodge that much , hence those don't give vengeance.

  5. #5
    Veng is given for Dodge/Parry, but not Misses(unless it got changed from 5.0 in T14 when they said "avoidance now gives vengeance"). Veng is also calc'd over last 5 seconds and that 5 seconds is checked every single time something that can give veng does.

    So it might possibly be looking at the 5 seconds at a weird time and is giving abnormal numbers. I have seen it happen literally on the first swing i hit 400k then about 30 seconds in im back down to 250ish k or w/e normal is for p1. Then P3 im just around 270-300k most of the p2 and so on. Never seen it happen mid fight really on anything at least that ive noticed.
    Last edited by Jellospally; 2014-04-05 at 02:31 PM.


  6. #6
    Blademaster Accurate's Avatar
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    You can actually control the random spikes. It's a bug with damage reduction AM/any real huge damage reductions such as zen med. Using say zen med 0.1 seconds before an annihilate lands on garrosh or using shield of the righteous right as the melee connects with you makes the game think your active mitigation isn't up even though it is up and doesn't really know how to calculate it so you get 3x the vengeance.

    I've started abusing this as on a lot of fights I don't really bother tanking unless I wanted to rank so when I'd taunt I'd want to get 400k vengeance instantly. It's really odd to get the timing down at first but once you get used to it you can always get 400k vengeance on the first melee from garrosh or 500k-600k vengeance from the first annihilate soak in the transition (haven't tried this as a paladin only monk and it's pretty risky).

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Accurate View Post
    You can actually control the random spikes. It's a bug with damage reduction AM/any real huge damage reductions such as zen med. Using say zen med 0.1 seconds before an annihilate lands on garrosh or using shield of the righteous right as the melee connects with you makes the game think your active mitigation isn't up even though it is up and doesn't really know how to calculate it so you get 3x the vengeance.

    I've started abusing this as on a lot of fights I don't really bother tanking unless I wanted to rank so when I'd taunt I'd want to get 400k vengeance instantly. It's really odd to get the timing down at first but once you get used to it you can always get 400k vengeance on the first melee from garrosh or 500k-600k vengeance from the first annihilate soak in the transition (haven't tried this as a paladin only monk and it's pretty risky).
    Vengeance is calculated on the unmitigated value of incoming damage so what you said can't be right

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Vengeance is calculated on the unmitigated value of incoming damage so what you said can't be right
    What he said is actually absolutely right. Or well, it is the complete opposite of what he said, but the idea is right. It is fairly hard to time though. Paladins get it a lot from SotR. It is the same bug that allowed level 80 paladins to get 389746589733495 vengeance when soloing, it still happen for level 90 paladins, just that it is less noticeable.

    It is caused by a delay in the servers vengeace calculation when a damage reduction ability is applied in the same moment as you take damage. This has been most noticeable for paladins because SotR goes up and down a lot, especially during earlier tiers when you could not chain it for as long.

    Simplified, what happens is that you recieve a hit one millisecond before a damage reduction goes up. Lets say you get hit for 500k and right after your SotR goes up.
    The vengeance formula kicks in after you have recieved a hit but there is the tiniest bit of delay. So what happens is that that vengeance formula busts into the room like a drunk irishman coming home from the pub with no sense of reality.

    Vengeance Formula: Oi mate! I see ya got hit fo 500k. Ya have a SotR up fo 60% reduction! The hit gotcha have be 1250k! *hicks*

    So what happens is that the vengeance formula does not realise that the damage reduction was applied after the hit was taken, it counts the original hit thinking you had mitigation up when taking your unmitigated hit, giving the original hit an inflated value. Lets say you take a hit for 1 million and right after apply a 99% damage reduction. The game would be astonished that you survive that, since according to its calculations you got hit for 100 million damage and still survived and gives you an insane amount of vengeance.

    The bigger the damage reduction is, the bigger the differece and it scales up quite fast. What happened for level 80 paladins was a quite funny bug. It was caused by this bug combined with that you could stack mastery so high that you would get over 100% damage reduction (this is why SotR now have a cap btw). No other damage reduction in the game could do that. So when that was used in combination with this bug, the game would be like.

    "Hiya! I see you got hit for 50k! And you have, 101% DAMAGE REDUCTION!?!?!! Whale... whale... the original hit gotta have been... uhm? Infinity*42? Eh, fuck it, I will just assume you got hit for 4387582347592475929269727642 since that number reduced by 101% could probably be 50k, what the heck do I know im not a math teacher! Take your vengeance and be happy!"

    So that is why there is a 75% cap now on SotR. Which means that using SotR alone, you could at maximum get 4x the vengeace you should recieve from a hit.
    All in all however, this bug is fairly unreliable. It can be used, but it is so small gain now unless it is for somethig a accurate described as using a zen med which would give 10% vengeance on an annihilation. But even that is fairly random and requires extremely precise timing. I would not really attempt to replicate this bug to get rankings other than on very predictable hits. Trying to do it on melee swings will likely cause you to drop more damage then you gain. Due to have difficult this is to time.

    The new vengeace formula also drops vengeance gained quite rapidly. If you wanna get a spike, it is better if you do not take any damage after it, since damage taken after it will reduce your vengeance. See Garrosh annihilates. Notice your vengeance difference soaking all annihilates / all annihlates -1 / all annihilates -2 and how much it drops if you take the first melee hit after the transition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    How can you know that? :P

    Afaik vengeance gets higher and higher over time the more times you get hit. My vengeance on garrosh progressively gets higher. Normally 200k on first hit, then goes up to 380k at end of first phase. Sometimes around 400k if I don't parry/dodge that much , hence those don't give vengeance.
    Dodges and parries give vengeance.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2014-04-06 at 07:35 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #9
    I tried what Accurate said on my alt Paladin, was tanking malkorok 25 normal and since I have a timer for boss swings, i could get about 700k Vengeance on 5th hit. Need to abuse it more

    Edit : Also , your post made me giggle Firefly :P
    Last edited by Lazel; 2014-04-06 at 09:21 AM.

  10. #10
    So do you use it right before or right after ?
    Tried using it in solo play, but honestly haven't noticed the difference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So do you use it right before or right after ?
    Tried using it in solo play, but honestly haven't noticed the difference.

    P.S. is there any detailed vengeance tracker ? not only current veng vs % of max possible, but something along the lines of recount raid reports which shows what your veng would update to, if you got hit and where you can see the spikes in veng ? (along the lines of those graphs : http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.c...the-graphs.jpg )

  11. #11
    Use it a milisecond before the hit :P

  12. #12
    The effect is technically triggered by SotR being applied a millisecond after the hit, but due to client and server delay you need to physically use it just before being hit.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #13
    Blademaster Accurate's Avatar
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    Easiest bosses to get used to it on would probably be nazgrim and garrosh if you're trying it in raids. Think they have the slowest attacks. Now for my PR to fall further behind till I start 1 tanking more fights, never will catch lazel or jellos >_>
    Last edited by Accurate; 2014-04-06 at 06:03 PM.

  14. #14
    Haha, its actually pretty easy to time so, well atleast for me hence I have a bar for swing timers, for every single mob & my target ( most of the times, the boss)

    Was doing Norushen LFR on monk and wanted to do it with Zen Meditation, got about 500k vengeance , had like 17 stacks of the debuff, the 'exploit' or the 'bug' works quite good :P. Can't wait to try it on malkorok heroic :X

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Accurate View Post
    Easiest bosses to get used to it on would probably be nazgrim and garrosh if you're trying it in raids. Think they have the slowest attacks. Now for my PR to fall further behind till I start 1 tanking more fights, never will catch lazel or jellos >_>
    Don't worry my 10 man is done some of us are going elsewhere to be in a actual guild for expac so I will either be tanking or dpsing 25 man depending what they need.

    It's just Lazel's domain now.


  16. #16
    Blademaster Accurate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellospally View Post
    Don't worry my 10 man is done some of us are going elsewhere to be in a actual guild for expac so I will either be tanking or dpsing 25 man depending what they need.

    It's just Lazel's domain now.
    Yea, we're bouncing back and forth between 10 and 25's still while trying to find a good guild merger. Will never get a good sha of pride 10H parse as people like izola and a few of our other dps are all over those add spawns instantly lol.

  17. #17
    Trying to parse when you're solo healing and the dps are blowing up everything is ughhh

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Accurate View Post
    Yea, we're bouncing back and forth between 10 and 25's still while trying to find a good guild merger. Will never get a good sha of pride 10H parse as people like izola and a few of our other dps are all over those add spawns instantly lol.
    I did what 440k on Sha? With basically 0 add dmg, but we solo tank. Its quite easy you just need to tank the 1 or 2 adds that spawn on you for avenger shield procs but otherwise w/e let them aoe. Biggest thing is maxing that 100 corruption uptime. The instant the Swelling hits you are at 95 and take 1 hit to transform.

    Protectors, Noru, Sha, Iron J, Dark Shaman(to some degree), Malk, Thok, Paragons, Garrosh are all pretty easy to not have to do much special besides tank to get a top 3-5.

    Now that I look at Iron J im suprised someone beat the one I did. I thought it was pretty unbeatable, but appearently thinking that shows to never be complacent in a rank.

    Most fights you should be able to parse in the top 3-5 easily without any special things besides just solo tanking or tanking as much of a fight as you can. Just need to focus on a crit build.
    Last edited by Jellospally; 2014-04-06 at 08:12 PM.


  19. #19
    Meh, I want to switch to 25 man too but we need more people in roster, we have about 22 or so at the moment and not all of them are transfered here. I'll be tanking with on 25 man with my guardian tank partner (basically same setup from 10 man) . When will that happen? No clue

    And 25 man is so fun, doing 25 normal clear on my horde paladin for 2 weeks now and holy shit, the amount of externals and the amount of vengeance. I could take 10 stacks on Juggernaut with 550 item level , without 4 set and shit, it is insane.

    Oh and talking about ranks, I thought your Juggernaut rank wouldn't be beaten for some time too, kinda surprised me, I guess it isn't as good as my Protectors rank :P.

  20. #20
    Blademaster Accurate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellospally View Post
    I did what 440k on Sha? With basically 0 add dmg, but we solo tank. Its quite easy you just need to tank the 1 or 2 adds that spawn on you for avenger shield procs but otherwise w/e let them aoe. Biggest thing is maxing that 100 corruption uptime. The instant the Swelling hits you are at 95 and take 1 hit to transform.

    Protectors, Noru, Sha, Iron J, Dark Shaman(to some degree), Malk, Thok, Paragons, Garrosh are all pretty easy to not have to do much special besides tank to get a top 3-5.

    Now that I look at Iron J im suprised someone beat the one I did. I thought it was pretty unbeatable, but appearently thinking that shows to never be complacent in a rank.

    Most fights you should be able to parse in the top 3-5 easily without any special things besides just solo tanking or tanking as much of a fight as you can. Just need to focus on a crit build.
    That's part of the other issue. People aren't always super keen on 1 tanking most of the fights in my guild. Think we've 1 tanked fallen protectors once and our melee complained to never do it again then thok we just never bothered to do more than once (our kill times were like 20-30 seconds slower and I don't really know why) and those are the most common one. So mainly just had to do this bug as I could do it fairly consistently compared to a monk, through a fight to make my damage high enough to parse decently or okayish still while 2 tanking and not tanking much lol.

    But meh, 25man I feel may be different especially as everything gives insane vengeance for just taking a hit without using this bug even.
    Last edited by Accurate; 2014-04-06 at 09:09 PM.

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