Anyone else worried about disc in WoD?

[Deleted]

@ Dark,

1) Way to go, taking that statement literal instead of figural. I'd like to see 25 examples. Its a good example but I honestly don't give a rat about 10 and I don't think we should be using anecdotes from 10 (I could give some, too). They're too far apart from 20 man raiding.

3) Maybe you are not but when I read and hear some Discipline Priest it seems as if they are even surprised they get nerfed in the first place. I don't want Discipline to be crap, I want Holy to be the default choice after 3 fucking patches. I like raiding as Shadow and I don't mind healing or having to heal (I don't like waiting in queues, basically) but I'm done with Discipline after 3 patches (TBH I did enjoy Discipline for a month or so after it was buffed in 5.0). Why is that so hard to understand? Why is it so hard to fathom there are currently people playing Priest or Priest healer who are looking forward to playing Holy, something they realistically currently cannot do? Be honest here, if you see a healer Priest anywhere you expect them to be Discipline, right? That should change. By the way the difference in stat priority for Holy 10 and 25 also isn't stimulating.

Which means that it would make sense for Holy to do far more throughput healing that Discipline. You would think that would make Holy the default spec but 5.0 statistics where this was the case suggested otherwise and a rather balance where some Priest healers instead of going for HPS were going for security. I expect something similar to happen in 6.0 but this time without Blizzard caving in.

I agree we need to test both specs, after tuning pass. That pass hasn't happened yet.

[Deleted]

1) You're right, 10man is a totally different world and the new standard is going to look a lot like 25 mans. I just wanted to emphasize on the fact that dpsing in red during downtime is already done in a certain format so i think its gonna be doable in 20man. Nobody does that in 25 because the dps brought by a single holy priest during downtime is not relevant. But now we'll have to do that in order to regen some mana and I think its a cool mecanic, nothing more and nothing less.

3) I agree that if I want to bring a priest I never played with in a serious raid and he says he's holy, I'm immediately doubtful. More than if he was disc anyway. That a really big issue ATM with holy because, lets face it, disc is currently almost always better in many situations and I can take a Sham with a bl for throughput instead of holy. You see I'm beeing honest and realistic here.

I really hope the changes that WOD will bring will be good for Holy because, believe it or not, I also enjoy playing holy. I don't care if Holy is better than disc as long as disc is viable. Hell, I want holy to be better because as long as holy is better than disc, that means that priest is one, if not the best healer. Because we'll have 2 specs to cover all the healing scenario. And let's face it, there's always be 1 or 2 fights in a raid designed for disc now.

[Deleted]

1) You're right, 10man is a totally different world and the new standard is going to look a lot like 25 mans. I just wanted to emphasize on the fact that dpsing in red during downtime is already done in a certain format so i think its gonna be doable in 20man. Nobody does that in 25 because the dps brought by a single holy priest during downtime is not relevant. But now we'll have to do that in order to regen some mana and I think its a cool mecanic, nothing more and nothing less.

3) I agree that if I want to bring a priest I never played with in a serious raid and he says he's holy, I'm immediately doubtful. More than if he was disc anyway. That a really big issue ATM with holy because, lets face it, disc is currently almost always better in many situations and I can take a Sham with a bl for throughput instead of holy. You see I'm beeing honest and realistic here.

I really hope the changes that WOD will bring will be good for Holy because, believe it or not, I also enjoy playing holy. I don't care if Holy is better than disc as long as disc is viable. Hell, I want holy to be better because as long as holy is better than disc, that means that priest is one, if not the best healer. Because we'll have 2 specs to cover all the healing scenario. And let's face it, there's always be 1 or 2 fights in a raid designed for disc now.

I agree with every single thing you wrote there. Where we maybe disagree, and that may be because of some of my harsh/unfriendly tone, is the balance or call it difference between Holy and Discipline throughput even though we cannot know much about it yet (it can be made or broken due to tuning alone!). Ideally, you might even want to have say 70% of the fights spread and 30% of the fights stacked with Discipline doing slightly better than Holy when stacked while Holy shining when spread. This way you already give Discipline a niche, the other one being the absorb mechanic which both shines on certain fights and may generally be a lifesaver for failers whilst overgearing the encounter.

[PosPosPos]

A healer class that can insta-burst shield any target from mechanics can never be a weak class.

Disc will always remain viable and a sought-after healer as long as it keeps its ability to pop a high health absorb shield for minimal cost on any vulnerable raid members.

If you look at T15(Throne of Thunder), disc never had the best throughput, but their ability to completely negate any given raid mechanic once every minute granted them instant raid spots on every fight.

[Checksmix]

Yes i'm worried about disc.

I'm worried that anyone would play it.

I hope it burns.

[Lovestar]

Hi Priests. Not meaning to derail, just quickly: I have no clue about playing Holy or Disc any more, but I created this thread after the Mistweaver forum was complaining a lot about how frustrating the RNG nature of ReM + Uplift spread/AoE is.

I'm basically trying to understand if other healing specs really have it as easy / dreamy as it seems from the Monk side of the fence, so I'm asking each class to weigh in with their own experience on how their AoE/Spread looks in WoD.

If any Disc feel like adding to the comparison and maybe educating me/others about your actual situation during AoE/Spread (in and out of Spirit Shell) I'd appreciate the chance to learn.

[AaronZen]

Well, it's time for disc getting down a little. During ICC, Cata, and MOP, if you are the only healing priest in a 10h team, you have to (or forced to) be a disc, whether you like disc or not. So, I've been a disc priest for a rather long time. And it is not fun at all.

[cityguy193]

Thankfully Disc still looks to be ahead of every other healer in the game.
See that guys? Your overpowered shield machine that can also pull the highest DPS of any healer is still ahead of everyone else.

[Deleted]

@lolaola

I'm glad we finally agree on something . I also personnaly wouldn't mind i 70% of fights holy "friendy". I think that would be overall good for the game.

@cityguy193
You can't possibly be serious and say something like this. Beta isn't even up yet. So, even if the spec it still good on the paper (it is to me but nobody can deny that it has been nerfed a lot), there's still the matter of tuning that hasn't beed adressed yet and won't be until the xpac launches.

@Lovestar

There was a whole thread some time ago where draco explained quite well where disc was regarding aoe (I'm talking toolkit, not numbers). Well, it was about our toolkit during SOO so it might need some more explainations for WOD but it doesn't change much IMO, we just have holy nova added. I'll try to link the thread if I find it because it was pretty clear and enlightening.
Great idea btw, it'll be quite nice for me to see what other healer have.

[Deleted]

Will holy pally still be just absorb healing like currently ? and disc priest aegis. with the nerfs hope this is nerfed
No, we're aiming to significantly tone down how much of Healadin throughput is absorption. We'll balance Disc and Healadin power.

[Deleted]

The reason is simple, by example: dude has 50% health (which isn't uncommon in triage healing) and runs over a Shannox fire trap and would've died. You see it is going to happen because he died from it last try so you keep an eye on him (nah you're not replacing him yet...).

Or you are keeping an eye on him so you cast heal on that player more regularly to keep him it a higher amount of health. Primarily because the standard healing ability is cheaper than PW:S. This is a non-argument and is how the majority of people played when mana was limited and even before Discipline was considered semi-viable for a raid spot - you worked out which targets were the ones that were going to be more problematic because of their inability to deal with a mechanic and you helped them where you could.

There is also the presumption that an additional shield would save the player but keeping them topped up wouldn't.

People who claim heal over time is going to shine could be right but heal over time wouldn't have saved this fellow. Its too slow.

It is - which is why HoT healers have been given a much larger toolset to deal with sudden circumstances, Swiftmend being the original example but a more front loaded Regrowth, Ironbark and Genesis all contributing. I've mentioned this previously. You could also include Tree of Life in this consideration. Some of these examples are dependent upon activation periods lining up but so is PW:S - the target needs not to strip their shield from other sources of damage and Weakened Soul must not be present.

the suggestion of making absorbs such as Power Word: Shield have a cap on % of HP

Agreed but in the brave new world of effectively doubled health pools with healing not compensated this change is much less important.

You completely ignore human error and uncontrollable RNG by the game.

This isn't really something that can be factored into a discussion like this otherwise we might as well start to use such a sloppy counterpoint to every concern raised. Your example of Shannox could be counteracted by stating player error in applying PW:S or RNG forcing the shield to be removed before the player runs over the trap. In the latter circumstance, PW:S couldn't be reapplied.

Anyway, that quote that you gave from Blizzard shows that you have much less to be concerned with in regards to shields.

It only makes sense Holy does far more damage in Red chakra and that the healing + damage Atonemnent does, does not add up together to come close because Atonement doesn't have the downtime to healing in the form of less healing and 10 sec CD. If that makes you jelly, too bad for you, you can have the option to go Holy (tho that doesn't seem to fly in the heads of the Disc fanboys here).

What happened to the discussion regarding no one using Chakra: Chastise? I'm looking forward to playing Holy now primarily because of this lovely new mechanic.

[emni]

Well, it's time for disc getting down a little. During ICC, Cata, and MOP, if you are the only healing priest in a 10h team, you have to (or forced to) be a disc, whether you like disc or not. So, I've been a disc priest for a rather long time. And it is not fun at all.

This is completely divorced from reality.

ICC, sure. But Cata? The beginning of Cata had Holy priests and paladins be miles and heaps above all other healing classes. This was fixed later on, but Holy was still a viable spec. I cleared hc DragonSoul as Holy up until Deathwing, at which point the only reason I went disc was because Guardian Spirit didn't work on Impales. Then MoP came out and holy was the stronger spec for quite some time until Atonement got changed to effect players within 40 yards in patch 5.1, which was the very first time that the current playstyle that depends so heavily on Atonement became the backbone of discipline.

It seems people have short memories and specs that are overpowered at the moment are often perceived to have been OP for years.

[Deleted]

This is completely divorced from reality.

ICC, sure. But Cata? The beginning of Cata had Holy priests and paladins be miles and heaps above all other healing classes. This was fixed later on, but Holy was still a viable spec. I cleared hc DragonSoul as Holy up until Deathwing, at which point the only reason I went disc was because Guardian Spirit didn't work on Impales. Then MoP came out and holy was the stronger spec for quite some time until Atonement got changed to effect players within 40 yards in patch 5.1, which was the very first time that the current playstyle that depends so heavily on Atonement became the backbone of discipline.

The absorbs Discipline brought in DS was amazing on certain fights. On Morchok for example, that fight is nearly a 1:1 on current burst healing. There is barely anything to heal except when that bubble comes which does a lot of damage. You can prehot and such as Holy but why would you? Just PWS the entire group and they can soak again. It even allows them to fail. On Hagara, absorb healing shines too. Ultraxion I would go Holy, Warmaster include a lot of burst damage which Discipline can trivialize and Spine it would depend on composition. Once overgearing Spine, Discipline provides more security. Madness, absorbs shine. Like Morchok, its a 1:1 on current healing model.

Start of Cata I agree on with you and Firelands it was more balanced between the two.

If Blizzard had not buffed Discipline in the start of the expansion it would've found its niche in ToT and SoO regardless.

It seems people have short memories and specs that are overpowered at the moment are often perceived to have been OP for years.

Hold on, it was 1-2 weeks until PoH got buffed, it was about a month until DA got buffed (which was arguably more important than Atonement) and 2 month until Atonement got buffed. So max 2 month in a 2 year expansion, and Emni calls that "for quite some time." Right back at ya.

[emni]

It still makes the statement that every priest has had to be disc since ICC completely invalid.

[Deleted]

Or you are keeping an eye on him so you cast heal on that player more regularly to keep him it a higher amount of health. Primarily because the standard healing ability is cheaper than PW:S. This is a non-argument and is how the majority of people played when mana was limited and even before Discipline was considered semi-viable for a raid spot - you worked out which targets were the ones that were going to be more problematic because of their inability to deal with a mechanic and you helped them where you could.

There is also the presumption that an additional shield would save the player but keeping them topped up wouldn't.

A fair point except once you overgear it you can start with PWS. And not just when you overgear it. For 3 expansions, Blizzard has tried to make mana matter. For 3 expansions, mana has started to not matter as the expansion progressed. 3 times, Blizzard failed at it. You want me to believe they succeed the fourth time? Excuse me, I believe it when I see it and until then I am highly skeptical.

It is - which is why HoT healers have been given a much larger toolset to deal with sudden circumstances, Swiftmend being the original example but a more front loaded Regrowth, Ironbark and Genesis all contributing. I've mentioned this previously. You could also include Tree of Life in this consideration. Some of these examples are dependent upon activation periods lining up but so is PW:S - the target needs not to strip their shield from other sources of damage and Weakened Soul must not be present.

During the more heated and hectic periods of triage, absorbs together with throughput will work well together. Skilled groups who are undergeared may be able to deal with that with only throughput healers but do we want Holy to be a high end niche only? No, Discipline has been the status quo for 3 patches now.

This isn't really something that can be factored into a discussion like this otherwise we might as well start to use such a sloppy counterpoint to every concern raised. Your example of Shannox could be counteracted by stating player error in applying PW:S or RNG forcing the shield to be removed before the player runs over the trap. In the latter circumstance, PW:S couldn't be reapplied.

The lower you go in the field of player skill, the more healers make up for players making errors. Top end healers may barely have to do that kind of healing while semi top may. Yep, in those levels they healer may even stand in a trap while healing someone else who failed.

It is selfish to only care about what the top10 or top50 or top100 is going to play. They are merely a small part of the customer base. We need to at least look at the healing community as a whole, and we also need to look on farm as well.

Anyway, that quote that you gave from Blizzard shows that you have much less to be concerned with in regards to shields.

Depends, they buffed Discipline after a month of QQ from Discipline Priests who didn't want to or couldn't play Holy.

What happened to the discussion regarding no one using Chakra: Chastise? I'm looking forward to playing Holy now primarily because of this lovely new mechanic.

Part of it is here http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...r-Holy-priests

[Deleted]

Excuse me, I believe it when I see it and until then I am highly skeptical.

Oh, I agree. Hopefully though, they have learnt enough by now that it doesn't happen again. Cataclysm was close to affording this model but the poor baseline regeneration somewhat through this plan off track as a knee-jerk reaction was required to bring healers back. MoP could have done better but ridiculous level of gear scaling really hampered things.

The requirement of active regeneration or getting more spirit pieces, the doubling of health pools and secondary stats being more widely distributed should ease these concerns.

During the more heated and hectic periods of triage, absorbs together with throughput will work well together. Skilled groups who are undergeared may be able to deal with that with only throughput healers but do we want Holy to be a high end niche only? No, Discipline has been the status quo for 3 patches now.

Ideally no healing specialisation should have to have a high end niche only. This means Discipline needs to be equally viable for lower end content and cannot be wholly reliant on having a throughput healer around to get through 5-man content and should still be viable with a Holy Paladin in 10 man heroic.

It is selfish to only care about what the top10 or top50 or top100 is going to play. They are merely a small part of the customer base. We need to at least look at the healing community as a whole, and we also need to look on farm as well.

Farm is considerably less important to look at than the portion of the healing community that is out with high end progression in my opinion. I'm well aware of what healers need to do at lower portions of the playing field - over the years and as a result of personal circumstances I've raided at server first levels right down to barely even being able to scrape through normal difficulty and for circumstances such as these, you can't have a situation where Discipline is only viable with another healer around or isn't able to muster some degree of throughput.

Depends, they buffed Discipline after a month of QQ from Discipline Priests who didn't want to or couldn't play Holy.

Which, aside from marring such complaints as crying, I agree with. All specialisations should have a place in every encounter. It doesn't need to be on the top of the meters but it should at least be competitive. After all, it could be argued that this whole topic has materialised as a result of changes to Discipline that arose due to Holy players complaining. This "QQ" as you put it is essential to eventual balancing of specs, as evidenced by the calls from Shadow Priests to lose healing "utility" in favour of more damage.