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  1. #261
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Zellviren, no one is hating. Most of the players here, myself included, have no issues with warriors getting the ability to do DPS with a sword and shield, it is the broken by design implementation that we disagree with for reasons that have been stated repeated throughout this thread.
    Yes, you are hating. Why else would you still be arguing that this implementation is, in any way, like the original Feral?

    They're nothing (repeat: NOTHING) alike.

    You are trying to compare druids who were effectively two classes rolled into one (rogue and warrior), and played completely differently, to warriors who will effectively play exactly the same as they do ordinarily with Protection, but with a stance modifier for more damage and not a tanking capability. Druids could also change form in combat with minimal loss to their effectiveness, and still blast out a decent healing cooldown with Tranquility, while gladiators lose pretty much all of the things that make them viable tanks; something the designers have explained to you multiple times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    And tell me, what is the third role that a Priest can do? Or are you planning on giving Holy Priests a 100 point talent to turn them into a 100% viable smite spamming DPS too? Again something most players would have no issue being a specc but many issues with it just being a talent.
    Yep, fair cop - I forgot about priests. But let's say they decided to do what you suggest.

    A Discipline priest takes a talent where they lose Atonement, but get more damage from Penance, Smite and Chastise. The reason it wouldn't be a spec, just as gladiators don't need a spec, is because they wouldn't be able to fulfill another role indefinitely (druids could) and they will still play exactly the same (druids didn't).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    And the benefit of warriors being hybrids is the fact that even as Arms or Fury, they can still throw on tanking gear and do something, even if it is just throwing on the sword and shield. Which is kinda funny considering that one of the big gripes they have on PvP about them is due to their hybrid nature since they can PvP in Defensive stance with an extra 25% mitigation with only a minor loss of damage.
    The way Defensive Stance works for Arms warriors in PvP is stupid. It's better than some classes cooldowns, for crying out loud.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    And you are comparing a cool down to a passive. And warriors should have this as their 4th spec, they will have 3 possible DPS roles and 1 possible tanking role. The fact they are getting 2 DPS speccs and 1 hybrid spec with no actual pure tanking spec anymore goes against their overall design reasons they gave when they split everything up to begin with.
    Yes, I was comparing a cooldown to a passive, but that was the point; things like Tranquility are extremely powerful, and you got a hold of it by virtue of being a hybrid that could heal. What benefits do warriors, death knights or priests get as hybrids that can only do two things? Do priests heal better than other classes? Do warriors or death knights do more damage? No, and no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Not arguing they are the same as the old feral druids, saying they are SIMILAR though, which has also been explained multiple times, if you can't see it either you never played during that time or you flat out are trying not to see it.
    They're nothing alike. Accept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Gladiators are something that warriors could use, no denying that, they should be given this option, AS A SPECC. Not a whole spec rolled into a single talent that gives them 2 specs in 1.
    It's much, much simpler to make it a talent. Fact. You may not like it, but that's the way it is. Ferals were two classes rolled into one, and warriors aren't.

    Stop hating.

  2. #262
    This topic is so fucking poitless. I dont know why ppl are acting like all the changes are live.. IT IS ALFA for F sake. Gladiator is just an experiment from blizz. It wont be OP in PvP, I am 100% you wont be able to change the stance in instanced PvP. All of you stop your whinig, lock this topic and try to look forward to the GOOD changes.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by BiffCz View Post
    All of you stop your whinig, lock this topic and try to look forward to the GOOD changes.
    Please direct your complaint at Fugus. He's getting on our nerves, too.

  4. #264
    Probably will get removed from all the whine. The reason "bear-cat" was considered OP is that there were 2 roles merged into one spec which was really silly. (more of a pvp issue)
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  5. #265
    No Zellviren, I am not hating, I am calling it out for what it is, there is a huge difference. I honestly don't mind if warriors get Sword and Board DPS, I honestly welcome it and all the confusion it will give players in PvP wondering if the warrior is prot or gladiator spec (if this actually gets done right instead of as it is presented).

    And yes they are very similar to old school feral, you aren't paying attention if you can't see it. They weren't 2 full classes rolled into 1 either, they were 2 ROLES rolled into one, Prot Warrior and a Rogue hybrid of specs. I didn't see any DPS bears running around or anything. This is making them 2 full roles into 1 spec with a no-combat limitation between them. They aren't the exact same thing but they are very similar. You denying it doesn't make that fact untrue, just means you can't see what is right in front of you.

    Also, feral has had cat and bear separated where they lost most of their effectiveness when switching to the other form, you are thinking about old school feral, not current feral. Something you should know by now.

    And I am not following you with your thing about priests, if they are given permanent viable DPS in exchange for gutting their heals as Disc, why wouldn't they be able to fulfill the role indefinitely? And again, druids couldn't fill 2 roles at the same time indefinitely, it took different gear sets and specs. They could go from DPS to semi-decent off tank or Main Tank to crap DPS (but still better than Prot Warrior DPS) but they weren't raid viable DPS and raid viable tank at the same time or even during the same fight, they could just do the hybrid between the 2 better, unless you are talking about content they outgeared.

    And your part comparing it to tranquility, you would have a point if this change went in now, but it isn't going in till next expansion where they are stripping all that utility from them (or so I have heard) leaving all those cool downs to the healers to more lock the DPS into their roles.

    So to reiterate, I am not hating, I am trying to get you to see it for what it is.

    Feral WAS two specs of two different classes rolled into one (not classes, 1 spec of 1 class does not equal a whole class) and they still required 2 talent setups and gear setups to be at 100%, they were separated for MoP where they are now 1 per spec (you can still go bear in feral or cat in guardian but you will suck at it horribly, be better off as a fury going defensive stance). Gladiator AS PRESENTED will be 2 full roles at 100% in 1 spec with 1 set of gear that has a no-combat restriction to it to attempt to balance it out in PvE but does nothing about it in PvP or fixes the fact they are giving them 2 roles in 1 spec which they took away from feral and made sure was impossible for all and are further dividing them up next patch, except for this.

    Why would I hate on something I honestly would love to see in game if properly implemented? Not hating on the thought of it, I am calling out bad design as a bad design. It needs to be 2 SPECS as it is 2 100% viable roles and both the PvP implications of this and the demands of others due to this will be horrible.

    At least you agree with me on the Arms Warrior in Defensive stance, if you thought that was good, I would have considered you a troll or lost cause at that point.

  6. #266
    Why would I hate on something I honestly would love to see in game if properly implemented? Not hating on the thought of it, I am calling out bad design as a bad design. It needs to be 2 SPECS as it is 2 100% viable roles and both the PvP implications of this and the demands of others due to this will be horrible.
    FWIW Celestalon has tweeted last week that they're going to make sure people can't viably swap into/out of Glad in PvP.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    FWIW Celestalon has tweeted last week that they're going to make sure people can't viably swap into/out of Glad in PvP.
    Glad to hear. Can you post a link please?

    Want to see how they implement that. Stance locking in BGs and Arena would fix most of the PvP issues since world PvP is dead but would still leave world PvP in a more broken state than it is now.

    Still does nothing to remedy the fact that you can expect plenty of outcry from just about every other class capable of more than DPS to be asking for similar treatment.

  8. #268
    There is always one option... Keep bearcat viable but make it so you can't shapeshift in combat! Yay! Everyone is happy right! (I know I would be... )
    Last edited by Danuru; 2014-05-16 at 07:36 PM. Reason: Grammar fail
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  9. #269
    Mechagnome Challenge's Avatar
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    You guys are speculating more over a warrior talent than warriors are lol.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuru View Post
    There is always one option... Keep bearcat viable but make it so you can't shapeshift in combat! Yay! Everyone is happy right! (I know I would be... )
    Nah, make it where Feral is default DPS.

    1) Have Cat form do rogue style DPS while in bear form you do Arms Warrior style DPS.
    2) Then have a level 100 talent that flips the script and guts their DPS for tanking abilities.
    3) Then have Bear form do Prot Warrior style tanking while Cat form does DK style tanking.

    Then you have feral either being 100% DPS in both forms or 100% tank in both forms and can only be changed by a talent that can only be done out of combat and still gives them access to both forms.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Challenge View Post
    You guys are speculating more over a warrior talent than warriors are lol.
    With how similar it is to what feral lost, it has a lot of old school ferals watching it closely and many feel like they are getting what was taken from us in a new flavor.

  11. #271
    Mechagnome Challenge's Avatar
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    If anything, death knights should be more upset.

    Blood dps was actually a thing. More people would of advocated blood dps rather than prot warrior dps.

    Also it's not REALLY like old school feral.

    Old school feral was like 80/80 best worlds.

    Tank, then do almost full committed dps in cat form when off tanking.Their glyphs and stat priorty were pretty identical if I recall correctly.

    I hope this experiment works and is spread to other tanks. I enjoyed blood dps.

  12. #272
    When you said the following - "Old school feral was like 80/80 best worlds." Are you referring to "old school feral" as in vanilla, tbc or wotlk?


    Quote Originally Posted by 25165453757
    I am excite

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuru View Post
    There is always one option... Keep bearcat viable but make it so you can't shapeshift in combat! Yay! Everyone is happy right! (I know I would be... )
    But you can do that... by swapping spec to Feral...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Challenge View Post
    If anything, death knights should be more upset.

    Blood dps was actually a thing. More people would of advocated blood dps rather than prot warrior dps.

    Also it's not REALLY like old school feral.

    Old school feral was like 80/80 best worlds.

    Tank, then do almost full committed dps in cat form when off tanking.Their glyphs and stat priorty were pretty identical if I recall correctly.

    I hope this experiment works and is spread to other tanks. I enjoyed blood dps.
    Yeah. I did think it was kind of strange to choose Warriors who have no history of blended specs. Especially after they more or less deemed the old DK "tank in any spec" design a failure.

    Guess things are different now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Epoch View Post
    When you said the following - "Old school feral was like 80/80 best worlds." Are you referring to "old school feral" as in vanilla, tbc or wotlk?
    IIRC it was about that in Cata and Wrath, not sure about prior.

    I remember it being particularly awkward in Cata - you were missing something like 3 main talent points from each spec so you ALMOST were a true hybrid but not quite.
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  14. #274
    Mechagnome Challenge's Avatar
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    Cata mostly and Wotlk yes.

  15. #275
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Nah, make it where Feral is default DPS.

    1) Have Cat form do rogue style DPS while in bear form you do Arms Warrior style DPS.
    2) Then have a level 100 talent that flips the script and guts their DPS for tanking abilities.
    3) Then have Bear form do Prot Warrior style tanking while Cat form does DK style tanking.

    Then you have feral either being 100% DPS in both forms or 100% tank in both forms and can only be changed by a talent that can only be done out of combat and still gives them access to both forms.
    Hrmm, it would have to be in a different form then a lvl 100 talent for that to happen, as that would completely prevent druids from tanking at low lvls. Possibly a glyph that caused that effect for feral/guardian (You pick it, as feral, things happen to Bear form that makes it dps at the cost of its tanking stuff, and if you pick it as Guardian, things happen to cat that raises its defensives to compete with bear form, with its damage output remaining the same as Bear Form.)

    That actually makes me wonder now- what will happen to Cat form with the vengeance/tank dps changes for Bears? ATM, with 0 vengeance, you technically do more damage in cat form then bear form. Will Guardians cat form dps be upped to be on par with the bear dps, or will it simply become a form you go into whenever you want to dash or prowl? (not taking into account HotW's power with it). If its the later, then perhaps the Bear Hug perk can instead make it to where you can cast dash/prowl in bear form.
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  16. #276
    Bloodsail Admiral WarpKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curlyfry View Post
    OP asks a question and gets a very well said answer from multiple people and gets angry and tries to argue a point not relevant to the topic. Why do people do this? Bear-cat was tanking and dpsing while in combat, Gladiator Stance is DPSing for the whole fight/as long as you are talented into it. VERY different, you are comparing parts of the specs that people had no issue with and are using that as your arguing point.

    Gladiator stance is not an off tank stance, its a pure DPS stance for someone who wants to DPS with a prot like playstyle. Enlightenment for everyone, cheers! <[:^)
    End of thread.

    Gladiator Stance replaces Defensive Stance.
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  17. #277
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    IIRC it was about that in Cata and Wrath, not sure about prior.

    I remember it being particularly awkward in Cata - you were missing something like 3 main talent points from each spec so you ALMOST were a true hybrid but not quite.
    Not really awkward. There were a few +dps things that you would miss as a feral (Wild Strikes, +15% FB damage, 20 extra energy whenever you used TF or Berserk), and as bear, you would miss those same talents (Wild strikes, FF instantly procs 3 stacks of sunders instead of one, 15 extra enrage when you use enrage or Berserk, and perseverance, 6% less magic damage taken). Since the bear one only missed some dps/QoL ones with a minor, minor tanking one compared to a full bear, it wasn't awkward on part of the bear. Of course, for feral, it was about a 10% dps loss. For bear, it was maybe a 4% dps loss, with the minor 6% less damage taken.

    But yea, bear-kitty was pretty powerful in cata, gave bears/ferals a HUGE boost in utility. Combine that with their ability to cast Tranquility, and even the T13 4 piece that made it to where frenzied regen would heal the raid, and druids, at the time, had the LARGEST utility out of all the tanks and dps.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WarpKnight View Post
    End of thread.

    Gladiator Stance replaces Defensive Stance.
    You are behind the times. Glad Stance replaces Battle Stance, but you are unable to swap to it in combat.
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    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  18. #278
    High Overlord
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    In response the OP question.

    Yes. That is all.

  19. #279
    Bloodsail Admiral WarpKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    You are behind the times. Glad Stance replaces Battle Stance, but you are unable to swap to it in combat.
    Herp derp. Alpha gonna alpha I guess. Although that has the net same effect.
    Currently Playing: Blood Death Knight, Arcane Mage

  20. #280
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    ITT: Opinions as facts.

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