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  1. #281
    What I don't understand is why Warriors are getting Gladiator Stance but Dk's aren't getting anything to make Blood a viable dps. I mean Blood DK's literally were a dps spec in Wotlk. They deserve to get that back over giving a totally different class that ability.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Not really awkward. There were a few +dps things that you would miss as a feral (Wild Strikes, +15% FB damage, 20 extra energy whenever you used TF or Berserk), and as bear, you would miss those same talents (Wild strikes, FF instantly procs 3 stacks of sunders instead of one, 15 extra enrage when you use enrage or Berserk, and perseverance, 6% less magic damage taken).
    I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "Wild strikes", closest I can think of is fury swipes and that was mandatory for bearcat (being one of the best DPS talents in the tier for bears).

    I actually looked up some old talent calcs to try and remember what we lost.

    Bears lost:
    5% crit on lacerate (woo....)
    6% magic reduction from Pers.
    Some free talent points for utility, e.g. Infected wounds (many of us still had to take it if we were the only tank anyway, which then took away FFF applying multiple stacks).

    What we were missing relative to a full cat spec:

    Rip extension from mangle/shred
    Primal Madness (20 temporary energy during TF/Berserk)
    Some crit chance on ravage when target's above 80% health.
    Some cat survival/utility talents (20% healing taken in cat form, free talent for pers/interrupt/something).

    All in all, it was really minor differences. The big one is not being able to extend rip, but even that wasn't a huge deal (particularly if you were one of the real tanks, since you weren't in cat for too long most of the time, and if you were, rip was refreshed by FB at 60% health or lower anyway ). You really were almost completely set as a bear, and only missing a few things as kitty.

    Based on memory, so don't expect them to be perfectly accurate, but some examples of talent trees (assuming you had no specific need for interrupts/Attack speed slow)
    Cat: http://freecode.hu/wowtal/eng/?DU#.2...-1,-1,-1,1,9,0
    Bear: http://freecode.hu/wowtal/eng/?DU#.2...-1,-1,-1,0,3,5
    BearCat: http://freecode.hu/wowtal/eng/?DU#.2...-1,-1,-1,0,5,9 Could also opt out of pulverize if you really weren't tanking often.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    What I don't understand is why Warriors are getting Gladiator Stance but Dk's aren't getting anything to make Blood a viable dps. I mean Blood DK's literally were a dps spec in Wotlk. They deserve to get that back over giving a totally different class that ability.
    Because there are quite a few 2H melee DPS specs, but no sword and board DPS specs.

    At least, that's probably why DKs didn't get the DPS spec added.
    Last edited by Braindwen; 2014-05-17 at 06:30 AM.

  3. #283
    Because there are quite a few 2H melee DPS specs, but no sword and board DPS specs.

    At least, that's probably why DKs didn't get the DPS spec added.
    I'm not against Gladiator Stance, I just think that Blood Dk's should have a priority for something like that. A lot of people played Blood dps in Wotlk and had it forcefully removed. It is something that should be brought back before others get it.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    I'm not against Gladiator Stance, I just think that Blood Dk's should have a priority for something like that. A lot of people played Blood dps in Wotlk and had it forcefully removed. It is something that should be brought back before others get it.
    Except it was extremely boring, and it's was no more or less engaging than frost.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Except it was extremely boring, and it's was no more or less engaging than frost.
    It doesn't matter whether you think it was "engaging" or not - Blood was played as DPS before. Protection has never been played as DPS.
    Blood should get the ability to pick a talent and be DPS over Protection.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Except it was extremely boring, and it's was no more or less engaging than frost.
    Because opinion isn't completely subjective or anything.

    I played Blood DPS from start of WotLK til the end since the other 2 specs I found boring. Even to the point now where I still only play Blood. Even though it is only for tanking.

    I would very much be for it.
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  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Instructor Soki View Post
    It doesn't matter whether you think it was "engaging" or not - Blood was played as DPS before. Protection has never been played as DPS.
    Blood should get the ability to pick a talent and be DPS over Protection.
    This.

    Like I said, I have no issue with Gladiator Stance. I think it's a cool talent. Blood Dk's should simply have priority when it comes to being a viable dps. Not giving them something similar is wrong in my opinion.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    What I don't understand is why Warriors are getting Gladiator Stance but Dk's aren't getting anything to make Blood a viable dps. I mean Blood DK's literally were a dps spec in Wotlk. They deserve to get that back over giving a totally different class that ability.
    Because Monks, DKs and Bears can all easily swap to DPS with their tanking gear on in WoD. Prot would have to pick up a 2h to do so. This allows them to use the gear they wear to DPS, which every other tank (save Paladin) can do. A better argument would be this: why are Paladins now the only tank that can't DPS with their tank gear in WoD?

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Instructor Soki View Post
    It doesn't matter whether you think it was "engaging" or not - Blood was played as DPS before. Protection has never been played as DPS.
    Blood should get the ability to pick a talent and be DPS over Protection.
    Nooooo.

    2h STR dps already exists. There is no 1h / shield STR dps in the game. This is new territory. There are ppl (myself included) who have wanted that style of gameplay for years
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  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Frankly, i don't think this has anything to do with warriors so much as somebody being jealous of somebody else getting something she or he perceives as having lost. That the somebody getting it is a warrior is incidental.
    Don't forget Bears and Cats both lost half of their abilities and gained nothing in return, effectively both now being half-specs.

    Are Warriors willing to give up half of their abilities to gain Gladiator stance?

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by YeahNo View Post
    Because Monks, DKs and Bears can all easily swap to DPS with their tanking gear on in WoD. Prot would have to pick up a 2h to do so. This allows them to use the gear they wear to DPS, which every other tank (save Paladin) can do. A better argument would be this: why are Paladins now the only tank that can't DPS with their tank gear in WoD?
    Retribution and Prot Paladins share a lot of the same stats. Blood Dk's actually use to be a dps spec unlike any other tank spec. They have a right to have the option of dpsing. Removing it entirely was a mistake by Blizzard.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    Good Druid tanks had been switching to cat to dps when not tanking since vanilla, and up until MoP, that was how we were expected to play. Suddenly at the end of Cata this practice went from being considered normal to considered OP and our versatility was gutted for MoP. So please tell me why now it is completely acceptable for Warriors to gain what we lost for WoD? For those who don't know what I'm talking about, this is Gladiator Stance:

    Gladiator's Resolve (Protection) - Increases the damage reduction provided by Defensive Stance by 5%.
    Also allows you to forgo your defensive role, and instead focus only on offensive capabilities, by replacing Battle Stance with Gladiator Stance. Gladiator Stance - A dauntless combat stance. Increases physical damage dealt by 20%, and replaces your Shield Block with Shield Charge. You cannot change into or out of this stance during combat.
    Passive
    Shield Charge
    20 Rage, 10 yd range, Instant, 15sec recharge, Requires Shields
    Raise your shield and charge a short distance to your target, increasing the damage of Shield Slam, Revenge, and Heroic Strike by 30% for 6 sec. Maximum 2 charges.

    It is essentially quite similar to Bear-Cat, especially when you take into account that ALL tanks will be using dps gear in WoD. Yes, they can not change in or out of the stance during combat, but they also do not need to worry about changing specs, glyphs, or gear to utilize this either. I know most people don't care, I know for years I detested being a Bearcat and often forced into the OT role because of it but 'the grass isn't always greener', and I miss Feral being one spec. We gained absolutely nothing in the split, but lost our versatility and our identity imo.


    Because Warriors are a pure DPS class treated like a hybrid because of having a TANK spec. It's about time they got this. I hope it works. I'd prefer a 4th spec instead of 1 talent changing the course of a spec.

  13. #293
    The most important difference is that you can not swap in and out of gladiator stance during combat. You can shapeshift as a Druid during combat.

    The way it is implemented now makes it both a 1 button switch outside of combat, although one in the form of a talent/stance and the other as a specialisation.

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    Don't forget Bears and Cats both lost half of their abilities and gained nothing in return, effectively both now being half-specs.

    Are Warriors willing to give up half of their abilities to gain Gladiator stance?
    Half spec? You realize that after the new item upgrade changes go through, Feral is going to be the #1 dps in the entire game when using their advanced rotation, right?

    Sounds like a "half spec" to me....not.

    Quit being mad that they finally are going to allow 1h / shield DPS. It's been needed for quite some time, and Warrior is the class that it makes the most sense for this to happen to first.
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  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Retribution and Prot Paladins share a lot of the same stats. Blood Dk's actually use to be a dps spec unlike any other tank spec. They have a right to have the option of dpsing. Removing it entirely was a mistake by Blizzard.
    Fact is, if Glad Stance makes it to live Prot Paladins will be the only tanks that can't swap to DPS with the gear they wear to tank; they'll have to pick up a 2h. Not a huge deal, but it'd be nice if they didn't have to have two weapons.

    Glad stance is a good solution, imo. Just one that I'd like to see given to Paladins as well. Once that's been taken care of then maybe Blood DPS can be a thing, but given they can go 2h Frost or UH, it's just not as important as giving Warriors and Paladins a way to DPS without taking a weapon away from another raid member.

  16. #296
    As for allowing another spec to Dks. It would make a lot more sense to have a prot stance that allows frost to tank with two 1h weapons.
    That would be something new (also useless IMO but still). I'd certainly roll a Blood elf Dk just for that #yolotankspec.
    Last edited by Darkmorcel; 2014-05-19 at 12:56 PM.

  17. #297
    I am not sure what is confusing the OP.

    Blizzard does not want tanks to be able to outperform the DPS on most fights (some fights will be an exception).
    Hence the vengeance changes coming in WoD (it being removed since it causes tank dps to be too high).

    Paladin tanks were not able to "slap on a 2h" and go nutz during a boss fight.
    Warrior tanks were not able to "slap on a 2h" and go nutz during a boss fight.
    Death Knight tanks could not increase their damage output regardless of weapon/stance swaps.

    Only druid tanks were capable of shifting mid combat to a "almost-full" DPS mode.

    If you do not see that as a balance issue then i really don't know what more you want us to say...

  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    What I don't understand is why Warriors are getting Gladiator Stance but Dk's aren't getting anything to make Blood a viable dps. I mean Blood DK's literally were a dps spec in Wotlk. They deserve to get that back over giving a totally different class that ability.
    Just to be clear, because Blood would play very similarly with a DPS presence when compared to its tanking presence (and suffers the same hybrid issues that warriors do), I'd totally support this. I can think of no reasonable reason why it can't happen.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Just to be clear, because Blood would play very similarly with a DPS presence when compared to its tanking presence (and suffers the same hybrid issues that warriors do), I'd totally support this. I can think of no reasonable reason why it can't happen.
    Umm... why do this in the first place? Blood's blood. Go F/U if you want to deeps. Sure, Glad Stance will bring more shine to that class itself, but why can't it have something that other classes do not? In PvE it prolly will not matter at all, and no serious raider would go "tank deeps" for a fight, just because it is easier than to switch specs and gear. That just will not happen.

    However, in PvP (rated) battlegrounds there will be an interesting impact, IMHO.

  20. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by critsom View Post
    Umm... why do this in the first place? Blood's blood. Go F/U if you want to deeps. Sure, Glad Stance will bring more shine to that class itself, but why can't it have something that other classes do not? In PvE it prolly will not matter at all, and no serious raider would go "tank deeps" for a fight, just because it is easier than to switch specs and gear. That just will not happen.

    However, in PvP (rated) battlegrounds there will be an interesting impact, IMHO.
    The "why" is pretty simple.

    Because I suspect a lot of DK players would enjoy it.

    That's the best reason there is to do something, assuming it can be balanced around, and I've no doubt it can.

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