So Bear-Cat was OP, but Gladiator Stance is acceptable?

[Fugus]

What you described sounds far more complicated than the Talent option they're giving Warriors to do what amounts to the Cata Feral split into MoP's Guardian and Feral specs. Why would Blizzard bother recoding all of the changes they've made to get what's essentially the same thing as what currently exists?

Talent lowers DPS output by x%, increases mitigation and avoidance by y% and increases threat by z%.

How complicated is that compared to what the warriors are getting?

No, they aren't similar at all solely because of the fact that you can not switch on the fly from tanking to dps during combat. All Gladiator Stance does for a Protection Warrior is save them the 3-5 seconds of switching specs and gear to become a damage dealer that doesn't have the important personal and raid cooldowns of Arms and Fury. This is different from old Cat-Bear where you had all of the important tools for both forms and could use them as you wanted when you wanted.

Gladiator Stance is more similar to WotLK's talent trees for DKs in that each spec had a viable tank and dps option but not a good mix of the two.

Yes they are similar, very much so with the "Out of Combat" being the big separator between the 2, they aren't 100% similar but they are very similar.

They don't need gladiator stance any more than Guardian spec needs a new Gladiator form. That is the whole purpose of dual spec.

If they are doing this, they should have just given Warriors a 4th spec and called it gladiator SPEC and had it based on sword and shield attacks. Not a stance to effectively give them tri-spec, especially after the feral split.

Edit: That would actually be kinda cool.

Bring on Gladiator Form for Guardian spec so we get a new melee DPS spec that plays different than cat form some =).

[Trubo]

Talent lowers DPS output by x%, increases mitigation and avoidance by y% and increases threat by z%.

How complicated is that compared to what the warriors are getting?

Much more complicated considering what currently exists in-game already does that; the Feral and Guardian specializations. There's no need for them to re-combine the two specs and introduce a talent that does the same exact thing that the separate specs already accomplishes.

Yes they are similar, very much so with the "Out of Combat" being the big separator between the 2, they aren't 100% similar but they are very similar.

No, they aren't similar at all. Based on this argument you could say that having an Arms and Prot dual spec is like being Cat-Bear because the Warrior can switch from tanking to dps during an out-of-combat time while the Druid used to be able to do it whenever they wanted.

They don't need gladiator stance any more than Guardian spec needs a new Gladiator form. That is the whole purpose of dual spec.

Now that is something I would agree with but too bad what I feel about this talent doesn't mean jack-all when it comes to what Blizzard ultimately releases.

If they are doing this, they should have just given Warriors a 4th spec and called it gladiator SPEC and had it based on sword and shield attacks. Not a stance to effectively give them tri-spec, especially after the feral split.

More effort to code in a 4th spec for Warriors than it is to introduce a talent that modifies some of the passives you get from Protection specialization. And you can still half-ass Cat damage as a Guardian if you have Berserk+Nature's Vigil / HotW up when you're off-tanking IN COMBAT.

[Kojo]

And you can still half-ass Cat damage as a Guardian if you have Berserk+Nature's Vigil / HotW up when you're off-tanking IN COMBAT.

Don't even go there, that's as bad as his comparing catbear with this new gladiator deal.

[Restors]

I really don't get all theese anger over Gladiator. It's just a talent that makes your defensive stance into DMG stance instead. As far as I know, you won't be able to tank at all (and takes crit dmg like every other DMGdealers).

Now, why does this talent even exist? My guess is, you should be able to swap into DPS if you want to without waiting for a 2h weapon loot. Just look at feral / guardians, the only difference (well now atleast and it will change to easier in WoD) are gems / reforge / enchants. But most gears (except Tier sets) and even weapon (to some extend trinket, like agility ones) can be used for both speccs.

Most people are sceptical that this talent will be any good at all, but waiting for beta to try it out.

In short, as long Gladiator is active, you will not be able to have tanking role during encounters (you take more dmg and you don't have any threat, and I think I read somewhere you don't get any vengeance (can be wrong on the last statement thou).

[Deleted]

Galdi Stance replaces Combat Stance so you actually can be a Damage Dealer as well as a Tank with one Spec. So essentially yeah warriors get "tripple spec". Does it matter? Don't think so. Warriors always could be tank or melee. Even this talent won't change this. You have to be ooc to switch stance and role just like respeccing. Only difference is it's 3 seconds faster. And it's the first time a warrior can use same gear for dd as well as tanking. Druids can do this since well since classic i think. MOP will be the first expansion allowing warriors to use same gearset for tanking and dealing damage. Maybe as for druids it won't be the best way, but at least its a way to go not like today. Or have you ever seen say fury using all this parry/dodge gear?

[Kojo]

Galdi Stance replaces Combat Stance so you actually can be a Damage Dealer as well as a Tank with one Spec. So essentially yeah warriors get "tripple spec". Does it matter? Don't think so. Warriors always could be tank or melee. Even this talent won't change this. You have to be ooc to switch stance and role just like respeccing. Only difference is it's 3 seconds faster. And it's the first time a warrior can use same gear for dd as well as tanking. Druids can do this since well since classic i think. MOP will be the first expansion allowing warriors to use same gearset for tanking and dealing damage. Maybe as for druids it won't be the best way, but at least its a way to go not like today. Or have you ever seen say fury using all this parry/dodge gear?

Fury? I don't see PROT using all this parry/dodge gear.

[celinamuna]

Except we all know that gladiator stance will still do less dps than fury/arms, or if it does, it will be nerfed till it does less, at which point it will be irrelevant.

[Deleted]

Damn typo ... i meant WoD not MOP ^^

btw Kojo take a look at gliff or many other prot warriors all using that parry dodge gear, at least since 5.4

[Fugus]

Much more complicated considering what currently exists in-game already does that; the Feral and Guardian specializations. There's no need for them to re-combine the two specs and introduce a talent that does the same exact thing that the separate specs already accomplishes.

Not from what I saw, it is pretty trivial for them to convert our crit chance into added dodge chance and so on, look at the Talent, that is effectively what it does.

No, they aren't similar at all. Based on this argument you could say that having an Arms and Prot dual spec is like being Cat-Bear because the Warrior can switch from tanking to dps during an out-of-combat time while the Druid used to be able to do it whenever they wanted.

Yes it is, just because you don't want to admit it doesn't change that fact or else you wouldn't be in here having to repeat it so many times. If it wasn't, there is a very real chance this entire thread would not exist at all. There is a huge difference between exactly the same and similar. They are not exactly the same but they are very similar.

Now that is something I would agree with but too bad what I feel about this talent doesn't mean jack-all when it comes to what Blizzard ultimately releases.

Great, but you now just removed about every single thread on the forum if we went with that logic.

More effort to code in a 4th spec for Warriors than it is to introduce a talent that modifies some of the passives you get from Protection specialization. And you can still half-ass Cat damage as a Guardian if you have Berserk+Nature's Vigil / HotW up when you're off-tanking IN COMBAT.

Not by much more and still much more fair and balanced than what they are doing with this.

[Trubo]

Not from what I saw, it is pretty trivial for them to convert our crit chance into added dodge chance and so on, look at the Talent, that is effectively what it does.

Leaving things as they are now requires 0 work. Changing it to re-combine the specs with a talent that essentially makes it what we currently have takes X amount of work. 0 is quite clearly less than X in this case and since the difference between both scenarios is essentially nothing there is no reason to waste time to make the change.

Yes it is, just because you don't want to admit it doesn't change that fact or else you wouldn't be in here having to repeat it so many times. If it wasn't, there is a very real chance this entire thread would not exist at all. There is a huge difference between exactly the same and similar. They are not exactly the same but they are very similar.

Funny how all you're doing is repeating that they're similar but somehow failing to understand that what made Bear-Cat so good was the ability to become a strong tank and a strong damage dealer at a moment's notice without having to change anything but Bear Form for Cat Form. Because Gladiator Stance won't allow the Warrior to do that in combat I can safely say they are nothing alike.

Now if Gladiator Stance allowed the Warrior to become a damage dealer and tank at will (I'm not even talking effective for both roles, I mean just the opportunity to do both by having full access to all abilities necessary to perform a tank and damage role) like Bear-Cat from the old Feral tree then you'd have a point. The simple facts that you can't do this during combat AND lack many of the abilities that distinguish Arms/Fury from Prot makes the comparison between the two meaningless.

Not by much more and still much more fair and balanced than what they are doing with this.

The Druid functionality is still much stronger than Gladiator Stance because it can occur in-combat whenever you want. It being marginally better (which isn't true if you pop either of those cds and can use them for the full duration as a cat over a Bear with trivial amounts of Vengeance) doesn't matter; Druids still have the functionality of old Bear-Cat in a much more toned down way and that's something Gladiator Stance will never offer a Warrior.

[Arielle]

Bring on Gladiator Form for Guardian spec so we get a new melee DPS spec that plays different than cat form some =).

So which l100 talent would you sacrifice? I certainly wouldn't get rid of any of them.

[Deleted]

Ok example: If I go solo an old raid as Guardian, if I want to do anything worthwhile as a cat, I will switch to Feral. If I go in as Feral and need more survivability, I switch to Guardian. Either way, it's a change of spec which should my guild ask me to do something else with my offspec, means a full paid respec. If I want to do the same on my Warrior with the new talents, I can simply stance dance through the instance as needed, the same way I would have done 2 years ago with the old Feral. The same holds true for questing. There is only one thing that separates Bearcat from this new talent, the ability to switch during combat. The so-called issues with bear cat could have been addressed through talents had they not killed their talent system as well but yes, the Warrior talent most definitely is similar.

would you be satisfied if they brought back bearcat but with the same restriction glad stance has?
"You cannot change into or out of catform during combat."
because then it would be the same and not vastly overpowered like the version you had before

[Fugus]

Leaving things as they are now requires 0 work. Changing it to re-combine the specs with a talent that essentially makes it what we currently have takes X amount of work. 0 is quite clearly less than X in this case and since the difference between both scenarios is essentially nothing there is no reason to waste time to make the change.

So since blizzard spent more than 0 work breaking it up, which they shouldn't have done if they were willing to go this route with warriors, they should leave it rather than spend a little extra work restoring it back to what it should have been. Sorry, I don't agree with the lazy way out of doing it right.

Funny how all you're doing is repeating that they're similar but somehow failing to understand that what made Bear-Cat so good was the ability to become a strong tank and a strong damage dealer at a moment's notice without having to change anything but Bear Form for Cat Form. Because Gladiator Stance won't allow the Warrior to do that in combat I can safely say they are nothing alike.

Neither would what I suggested as the change couldn't be made in combat.

But while we are on the subject, I played in TBC, I couldn't just go from cat to bear and be just as strong a tank unless I gimped my DPS. If I went bear in cat gear I lost about 12,000 armor over my bear gear along with defense rating and all. I same in WotLK as you had to dual spec and you couldn't change your spec in combat and didn't have enough talent points to do it like that, no real clue about Cata or MoP though. But if they broke that, they should have fixed it and not thrown the baby out with the bathwater on the issue like they did.

In all that time, my warrior friends as both arms and fury could still throw on the sword and board and go defensive stance and still do decent. Yes, the lacked but so did we.

Now if Gladiator Stance allowed the Warrior to become a damage dealer and tank at will (I'm not even talking effective for both roles, I mean just the opportunity to do both by having full access to all abilities necessary to perform a tank and damage role) like Bear-Cat from the old Feral tree then you'd have a point. The simple facts that you can't do this during combat AND lack many of the abilities that distinguish Arms/Fury from Prot makes the comparison between the two meaningless.

Arms and Fury still had access to enough skills to properly tank lower level content just fine and feral couldn't tank the upper content without gearing for it either. Again, speaking from a WotLK and TBC perspective, Warriors in Arms and Fury spec sure as shit did have access to enough to tank the lower content.

The Druid functionality is still much stronger than Gladiator Stance because it can occur in-combat whenever you want. It being marginally better (which isn't true if you pop either of those cds and can use them for the full duration as a cat over a Bear with trivial amounts of Vengeance) doesn't matter; Druids still have the functionality of old Bear-Cat in a much more toned down way and that's something Gladiator Stance will never offer a Warrior.

Sorry, but you mistake toned down for gutted and left for dead.

Not saying that they shouldn't have something similar to this, but they shouldn't have it as prot spec. It should be it's own spec. Give this to them as a 4th spec, not a watered down variation of what they took from us. That is just a slap in the face unless they are willing to do the same for feral as well.

- - - Updated - - -

So which l100 talent would you sacrifice? I certainly wouldn't get rid of any of them.

I would get rid of savagery and savage roar and make it where it was no longer needed. I hated that ability since its inception.

No clue about how it is now but during WotLK that broken by design mechanic killed us in PvP against a smart opponent who knew to dispel it.

[Deleted]

Not saying that they shouldn't have something similar to this, but they shouldn't have it as prot spec. It should be it's own spec. Give this to them as a 4th spec, not a watered down variation of what they took from us. That is just a slap in the face unless they are willing to do the same for feral as well.

then write on the official forums that you want bearcat back with the restriction that you can´t switch forms during combat anymore. problem solved

[Fugus]

then write on the official forums that you want bearcat back with the restriction that you can´t switch forms during combat anymore. problem solved

Never said that, I said this

Never said limiting the shape shifts while in combat.

What I meant was keeping feral a single tree and have it dedicated to either Cat or Bear and then at level 15 when you got your first talent you can choose, one of them turns it into the other.

For instance, Feral is default Kitty DPS, it still has bear form and all its abilities, but it has crap mitigation but so-so damage as DPS spec, the talent guts your DPS output but instead boosts your survivability and gives your bear form added threat. Or have it go the other way.

See, feral is still a single spec but can only change between tank or DPS while out of combat and it actually turns Feral Bear into something similar to an arms warrior while in DPS setup.

[Arielle]

Never said that, I said this

It seems like a lot of effort to change a spec swap to a talent change - given the amount of things that would have to swap when you change the talent.

[Fugus]

It seems like a lot of effort to change a spec swap to a talent change - given the amount of things that would have to swap when you change the talent.

True. But a lot of that is due to blizzard dividing it up to begin with.

I hated hearing about them dividing them up but oh well. Now to see them doing this to warriors, is a slap in the face.

If they kept them separate and gave them Gladiator Spec instead of Gladiator Stance in Prot Spec, I personally would be all for it.
Would be interesting to see Prot/Glad dual spec on warriors and it would have plenty of people in battlegrounds and world PvP scratching their heads trying to figure what this guy was before they attacked it.

[Cyclonus-WOW]

Gladiator's Resolve is missing 50% increased Execute damage. This will not be as good as Arms or Fury for PVE dps. It might be close, and probably have better uptime in a moving fight, but I expect gladstance warriors will be slightly behind the other dps spec's, but still in front of tank dps.

Please also don't forget that if you're wearing tank gear in WOD, you're going to have plenty of dps stats true, but you will also have a ton of ILVL spent on Armor.
Armor is the new tank stat.

So if the damage is sub-par enough, this will literally just be a "we can 1tank the trash, and the OT can do some more damage in the meantime" spec.
If this is competitive, which I hope for, I guess we got a sweet deal. If I was able to turn into a 160k hps healing for 30seconds for my raid during IJ's seismic phase... man, i'd sure be useful ( or a druid ).

It seems to me, the major point of contention is that warriors won't have to spent GOLD to respec to gladiator stance, instead spending a tome. Is that seriously worth 4 pages of crying over? SAVING some gold?

[Teye]

Wait, this thread is still going?

Let me spell it out... Bearkitty was OP because you could DPS when it wasn't your turn to tank. Glad stance is not OP, because you can't change in combat.

Stop talking it to death. Its still in ALPHA ffs.

[Elunedra]

Wait, this thread is still going?

Let me spell it out... Bearkitty was OP because you could DPS when it wasn't your turn to tank. Glad stance is not OP, because you can't change in combat.

Stop talking it to death. Its still in ALPHA ffs.

no you dont see whats happening here, gladiator stance WILL allow you to swap stances during compbat, becase all warriors will now QQ it makes no sence to have a stance that you cannot change and that it is useless, becase if you know you are going to dps at the moment of the pull, then why didnt you spec dps in the first place

so blizzard will remove the requirement and warriros will be the new bear cats