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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    Because the odds, to me, are so negligible for semi-serious play that it's not going to have an effect whatsoever. It's bad design philosophy to balance around how bad players play.
    They're bad players, it's not like one would need that advantage.

  2. #242
    Herald of the Titans Racthoh's Avatar
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    the problem was feral tanks switching into dps stance and dealing legitimate damage during swaps. gladiator stance doesn't allow this.

    so yeah, bear/cat was OP. glad stance is not.

  3. #243
    Guardian Druids cant go into cat form and do a little more DPS anymore? I thought it was still possible.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    Because the odds, to me, are so negligible for semi-serious play that it's not going to have an effect whatsoever. It's bad design philosophy to balance around how bad players play.

    Also, people are still going to prefer bringing a ranged DPS than a melee for RBGs because they're ranged. With all the nerfs to tanking characters that hold a flag I'd rather bring a Warlock as my FC cause they can fake tank AND deal damage at the same time.
    Odds to you aren't odds to everyone. And the current implementation is bad design philosophy unless they are planning on doing it for everyone which also throws their who current design philosophy out the window.

    I think we can agree that making a new talent is far less time and coding intensive than simply adding a new spec. Since Blizzard is testing out how Gladiator works I think they'd rather go with the option that's more easily corrected than have some sorry excuse and waste of resources available for an entire expansion.

    This isn't TBC when you hold whole trees with multiple talents to design around. Now each spec has a certain set of added abilities that can be shared between them and passives. Adding a new spec is not much harder than adding a talent, same with deleting them as they made sure they have zero overlap that isn't duplicated outright instead.

    Since blizzard is testing out how it works, then they need to make it into a SPEC to test how it works, not turn it into this which will causes more problems due to bad implementation with massive justified complaints by others demanding the same for their class/spec allowing for every Healer/DPS, Tank/DPS, combo out there.

    And if this didn't work out, they could just as easily delete the spec as they could the talent point, the overall complaints from the warriors will be about the same and no worse than when they did stuff like this to druids which they didn't care much about either when they did it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by phalk View Post
    Guardian Druids cant go into cat form and do a little more DPS anymore? I thought it was still possible.
    Not the same as doing better DPS isn't doing 100% viable DPS which even as far back as TBC took a different spec and set of gear for the druid.

    Before the split, you could be about 80%/80% at best if you were geared to that content. Not viable when compared to others but still better for the fights were a full on Tank wasn't needed as you could pull it off better than a Fury or Arms Warrior throwing on a sword and board.

    Now, they have Cat and Bear completely split where you can't even come close to it from what I have saw any better than a warrior or paladin.

  5. #245
    you could be about 80%/80% at best
    This is objectively false. In Cataclysm the gearing was 100% identical, the only difference was 3 talent points. The end result was somewhere around 95%/100% or 100%/95% for Cat/Bear respectively.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Odds to you aren't odds to everyone. And the current implementation is bad design philosophy unless they are planning on doing it for everyone which also throws their who current design philosophy out the window.
    Until we see how Gladiator Stance works we can't say whether you or I am correct. For now I'm just going to go with my assumption that it's not that big a deal because of the no switching in combat aspect.

    This isn't TBC when you hold whole trees with multiple talents to design around. Now each spec has a certain set of added abilities that can be shared between them and passives. Adding a new spec is not much harder than adding a talent, same with deleting them as they made sure they have zero overlap that isn't duplicated outright instead.

    Since blizzard is testing out how it works, then they need to make it into a SPEC to test how it works, not turn it into this which will causes more problems due to bad implementation with massive justified complaints by others demanding the same for their class/spec allowing for every Healer/DPS, Tank/DPS, combo out there.

    And if this didn't work out, they could just as easily delete the spec as they could the talent point, the overall complaints from the warriors will be about the same and no worse than when they did stuff like this to druids which they didn't care much about either when they did it.
    Yeah, I'll believe that when Blizzard ever gets around to fixing some of the current dumb old code they still have in the game such as the default backpack. Until then I'll stick with new Talent being easier to test/balance than an entire new spec, especially if they plan on scrapping it for a different idea.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    And why are they going to give Prot Warriors THIS level of utility when they are literally stripping players of their utility to force them more into their assigned role.
    Because warriors, like death knights, are hybrids that can only perform two roles; every other hybrid can perform three, and you can see the benefit of that in both their passively collected talents and the talent selection pane itself.

    Where is the warrior benefit for being a hybrid in any given spec? They don't have one. Gladiator's Resolve is going to be it. And if it works, I'd have no problem with Blood picking up a DPS presence of some kind so that death knights can also get the benefit of being a hybrid with a playstyle a lot of players would enjoy.

    Stop hating.

    I can't sympathise with druids because they're the most versatile class in the game, and Heart of the Wild provides a meaningful way for them to contribute to other roles in ways other classes could only dream about. With the disarmament of utility going on (which had to happen), druids are still going to have a ton more options than other classes in how they want to play, and they stand to benefit the most from the new gearing system because one set of gear will be usable across four specs, and four different roles.

    All you're trying to do is argue that gladiators are the same as the old Feral druids. They're not. It's been explained to you multiple times. Being a gladiator is the bit of flavour warriors have been absolutely crying out for since the introduction of Titan's Grip.

    And it's about time.

  8. #248
    Zellviren, no one is hating. Most of the players here, myself included, have no issues with warriors getting the ability to do DPS with a sword and shield, it is the broken by design implementation that we disagree with for reasons that have been stated repeated throughout this thread.

    And tell me, what is the third role that a Priest can do? Or are you planning on giving Holy Priests a 100 point talent to turn them into a 100% viable smite spamming DPS too? Again something most players would have no issue being a specc but many issues with it just being a talent.

    And the benefit of warriors being hybrids is the fact that even as Arms or Fury, they can still throw on tanking gear and do something, even if it is just throwing on the sword and shield. Which is kinda funny considering that one of the big gripes they have on PvP about them is due to their hybrid nature since they can PvP in Defensive stance with an extra 25% mitigation with only a minor loss of damage.

    And you are comparing a cool down to a passive. And warriors should have this as their 4th spec, they will have 3 possible DPS roles and 1 possible tanking role. The fact they are getting 2 DPS speccs and 1 hybrid spec with no actual pure tanking spec anymore goes against their overall design reasons they gave when they split everything up to begin with.

    Not arguing they are the same as the old feral druids, saying they are SIMILAR though, which has also been explained multiple times, if you can't see it either you never played during that time or you flat out are trying not to see it.

    Gladiators are something that warriors could use, no denying that, they should be given this option, AS A SPECC. Not a whole spec rolled into a single talent that gives them 2 specs in 1.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Gladiators are something that warriors could use, no denying that, they should be given this option, AS A SPECC. Not a whole spec rolled into a single talent that gives them 2 specs in 1.
    Why bother making a spec? The talents dont change, the abilities are all the same.

    it's a stance, it could have a cast time like changing specs, it could be restricted like changing specs. Making it a spec just makes it restrictive in the sense that now I have to have Prot and Gladiator instead of Prot and Arms/Fury for PvP or something. There's no benefit of making it a spec if it can be restricted everywhere else that changing talents are restricted. It can have a cast time if they want.

    There's absolutely 0 reason to make it a spec instead of a stance.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Leaky View Post
    Why bother making a spec? The talents dont change, the abilities are all the same.

    it's a stance, it could have a cast time like changing specs, it could be restricted like changing specs. Making it a spec just makes it restrictive in the sense that now I have to have Prot and Gladiator instead of Prot and Arms/Fury for PvP or something. There's no benefit of making it a spec if it can be restricted everywhere else that changing talents are restricted. It can have a cast time if they want.

    There's absolutely 0 reason to make it a spec instead of a stance.
    The talent modifies them effectively making them other abilities, they could have just as easily made them new abilities. And yes there is overlap, just like there is between Guardian and Feral.

    It is a SPEC hidden within a stance. It is meant to be restrictive just like all specs are.

    There is every reason to make it a spec instead of a stance. Then you are required to actually dual spec into Prot Tanking and Guardian DPS, they are two completely different roles with gear overlap, just as guardian and feral or disc and holy and none of that matters as much next expansion as your gear changed depending on your spec.

  11. #251
    Your molehill is starting to make the Olympus Mons look tiny. It really isn't that big a deal when one gets down to it.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Your molehill is starting to make the Olympus Mons look tiny. It really isn't that big a deal when one gets down to it.
    If all you do is raid, correct, not a big deal at all, you are typically locked into your spec for the guild so you will only be rolling on Tanking gear unless no one else needs it so your tanking gear will have to become your DPS gear. Not a huge issue there at all and it makes no difference whether this is a spec or a stance at all.

    If you actually do PvP or anything, this is a HUGE deal as it gives you too much control on the terms of engagement as been stated many times before.

    If you PuG a lot, this is a decent deal as it allows you to Tank or DPS as needed without even so much as changing your spec or gear and allows you to do whatever with ease. But again, this could be solved by making it a spec instead of a stance.

    If this goes live, I except to see massive demands to give Guardian Druids, Prot Paladins, Holy Priests, Holy Paladins, Resto Shamans, Resto Druids,all a talent to do the same as it would only be fair and blizzard already set the precedence that they will allow it.

    Followed by Balance druids, Shadow Priests, and Elemental Shamans all asking for a talent to allow them to Heal as blizzard set the precedence to allow it with warriors. It is only fair.

    Then followed by others asking for a talent to allow them to tank in their DPS spec for the same reasons. And ALL of that would be fair. This isn't even taking it to extremes, this is just stating what they are doing with warriors applied to other classes.

    Blizzard needs to implement it as a spec, doing it as a stance is opening up a HUGE can of worms as they are effectively removing the purpose of the spec dividing the roles to begin with. But if it did go live, it would be funny when Arms Warriors ask for a talent to allow them to tank with their gear with the ability to deflect attacks with their sword like with 2-handers in Skyrim.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    If you actually do PvP or anything, this is a HUGE deal as it gives you too much control on the terms of engagement as been stated many times before.
    We don't know that. You've been given multiple explanations of how Blizzard could avoid it. Right now you're just complaining about how unbalanced your personal fantasy is.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    We don't know that. You've been given multiple explanations of how Blizzard could avoid it. Right now you're just complaining about how unbalanced your personal fantasy is.
    I know about all the ways to avoid them, if you check back enough, you will notice that I personally presented some of them. I am not complaining about a fantasy, I am talking about this with the facts AS PRESENTED.

    You don't like that, then come up with facts to dispute it, not your own fantasy that does not take into account what has been presented. Because as it stands, blizzard has announced this as a talent and the only limitation they have put in is that you can't change stances while in combat which leaves mountains of possible abuse in PvP let alone the fact how others will want something similar for themselves in PvE as well.

  15. #255
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    I want shield DPS so bad that I don't care about the damage reduction.

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Zellviren, no one is hating. Most of the players here, myself included, have no issues with warriors getting the ability to do DPS with a sword and shield, it is the broken by design implementation that we disagree with for reasons that have been stated repeated throughout this thread.
    Yes, you are hating. Why else would you still be arguing that this implementation is, in any way, like the original Feral?

    They're nothing (repeat: NOTHING) alike.

    You are trying to compare druids who were effectively two classes rolled into one (rogue and warrior), and played completely differently, to warriors who will effectively play exactly the same as they do ordinarily with Protection, but with a stance modifier for more damage and not a tanking capability. Druids could also change form in combat with minimal loss to their effectiveness, and still blast out a decent healing cooldown with Tranquility, while gladiators lose pretty much all of the things that make them viable tanks; something the designers have explained to you multiple times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    And tell me, what is the third role that a Priest can do? Or are you planning on giving Holy Priests a 100 point talent to turn them into a 100% viable smite spamming DPS too? Again something most players would have no issue being a specc but many issues with it just being a talent.
    Yep, fair cop - I forgot about priests. But let's say they decided to do what you suggest.

    A Discipline priest takes a talent where they lose Atonement, but get more damage from Penance, Smite and Chastise. The reason it wouldn't be a spec, just as gladiators don't need a spec, is because they wouldn't be able to fulfill another role indefinitely (druids could) and they will still play exactly the same (druids didn't).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    And the benefit of warriors being hybrids is the fact that even as Arms or Fury, they can still throw on tanking gear and do something, even if it is just throwing on the sword and shield. Which is kinda funny considering that one of the big gripes they have on PvP about them is due to their hybrid nature since they can PvP in Defensive stance with an extra 25% mitigation with only a minor loss of damage.
    The way Defensive Stance works for Arms warriors in PvP is stupid. It's better than some classes cooldowns, for crying out loud.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    And you are comparing a cool down to a passive. And warriors should have this as their 4th spec, they will have 3 possible DPS roles and 1 possible tanking role. The fact they are getting 2 DPS speccs and 1 hybrid spec with no actual pure tanking spec anymore goes against their overall design reasons they gave when they split everything up to begin with.
    Yes, I was comparing a cooldown to a passive, but that was the point; things like Tranquility are extremely powerful, and you got a hold of it by virtue of being a hybrid that could heal. What benefits do warriors, death knights or priests get as hybrids that can only do two things? Do priests heal better than other classes? Do warriors or death knights do more damage? No, and no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Not arguing they are the same as the old feral druids, saying they are SIMILAR though, which has also been explained multiple times, if you can't see it either you never played during that time or you flat out are trying not to see it.
    They're nothing alike. Accept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Gladiators are something that warriors could use, no denying that, they should be given this option, AS A SPECC. Not a whole spec rolled into a single talent that gives them 2 specs in 1.
    It's much, much simpler to make it a talent. Fact. You may not like it, but that's the way it is. Ferals were two classes rolled into one, and warriors aren't.

    Stop hating.

  17. #257
    Deleted
    This topic is so fucking poitless. I dont know why ppl are acting like all the changes are live.. IT IS ALFA for F sake. Gladiator is just an experiment from blizz. It wont be OP in PvP, I am 100% you wont be able to change the stance in instanced PvP. All of you stop your whinig, lock this topic and try to look forward to the GOOD changes.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by BiffCz View Post
    All of you stop your whinig, lock this topic and try to look forward to the GOOD changes.
    Please direct your complaint at Fugus. He's getting on our nerves, too.

  19. #259
    Probably will get removed from all the whine. The reason "bear-cat" was considered OP is that there were 2 roles merged into one spec which was really silly. (more of a pvp issue)
    Stay salty my friends.

  20. #260
    No Zellviren, I am not hating, I am calling it out for what it is, there is a huge difference. I honestly don't mind if warriors get Sword and Board DPS, I honestly welcome it and all the confusion it will give players in PvP wondering if the warrior is prot or gladiator spec (if this actually gets done right instead of as it is presented).

    And yes they are very similar to old school feral, you aren't paying attention if you can't see it. They weren't 2 full classes rolled into 1 either, they were 2 ROLES rolled into one, Prot Warrior and a Rogue hybrid of specs. I didn't see any DPS bears running around or anything. This is making them 2 full roles into 1 spec with a no-combat limitation between them. They aren't the exact same thing but they are very similar. You denying it doesn't make that fact untrue, just means you can't see what is right in front of you.

    Also, feral has had cat and bear separated where they lost most of their effectiveness when switching to the other form, you are thinking about old school feral, not current feral. Something you should know by now.

    And I am not following you with your thing about priests, if they are given permanent viable DPS in exchange for gutting their heals as Disc, why wouldn't they be able to fulfill the role indefinitely? And again, druids couldn't fill 2 roles at the same time indefinitely, it took different gear sets and specs. They could go from DPS to semi-decent off tank or Main Tank to crap DPS (but still better than Prot Warrior DPS) but they weren't raid viable DPS and raid viable tank at the same time or even during the same fight, they could just do the hybrid between the 2 better, unless you are talking about content they outgeared.

    And your part comparing it to tranquility, you would have a point if this change went in now, but it isn't going in till next expansion where they are stripping all that utility from them (or so I have heard) leaving all those cool downs to the healers to more lock the DPS into their roles.

    So to reiterate, I am not hating, I am trying to get you to see it for what it is.

    Feral WAS two specs of two different classes rolled into one (not classes, 1 spec of 1 class does not equal a whole class) and they still required 2 talent setups and gear setups to be at 100%, they were separated for MoP where they are now 1 per spec (you can still go bear in feral or cat in guardian but you will suck at it horribly, be better off as a fury going defensive stance). Gladiator AS PRESENTED will be 2 full roles at 100% in 1 spec with 1 set of gear that has a no-combat restriction to it to attempt to balance it out in PvE but does nothing about it in PvP or fixes the fact they are giving them 2 roles in 1 spec which they took away from feral and made sure was impossible for all and are further dividing them up next patch, except for this.

    Why would I hate on something I honestly would love to see in game if properly implemented? Not hating on the thought of it, I am calling out bad design as a bad design. It needs to be 2 SPECS as it is 2 100% viable roles and both the PvP implications of this and the demands of others due to this will be horrible.

    At least you agree with me on the Arms Warrior in Defensive stance, if you thought that was good, I would have considered you a troll or lost cause at that point.

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