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  1. #1

    Alternate Berserker Stance.

    Ever since I saw how they are handling Gladiator stance, I got wondering on how blizz could work Berserker stance back into the game. Best way I think would be baking it into the DPS side of the talent line that has Gladiator's stance. In other words, it'll make it a stance based talent no matter your spec.

    For example: Berserker Stance: Increase damage by 5% in battle stance. Changes Protection Stance into Berserker Stance.

    Berserker Stance: Increase damage by 10%, Defense by 10% (needs to keep battle stances damage reduction or else no one would use it). Increases movement speed by 10% and haste by 10% (whatever is needed to keep it balanced with the other talents, damage wise). Recklessness is replaced with Wrath of the Berserker.

    Wrath of the Berserker: Removes all rage costs for X seconds.

  2. #2
    With that Berserker Stance there's no reason anyone would ever pick Battle Stance. The Gladiator's Resolve talent at least gives Protection tanks a reason to pick it over the other options because it provides an additional bit of damage reduction while tanking in addition to making Prot a DPS spec.

    Edit: Now they could make Berserker Stance a sort of AMS thing that only procs off of unavoidable damage in terms of rage generation but that seems like something annoying to manage for both the player and developer.
    Last edited by Trubo; 2014-04-06 at 09:49 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    With that Berserker Stance there's no reason anyone would ever pick Battle Stance. The Gladiator's Resolve talent at least gives Protection tanks a reason to pick it over the other options because it provides an additional bit of damage reduction while tanking in addition to making Prot a DPS spec.

    Edit: Now they could make Berserker Stance a sort of AMS thing that only procs off of unavoidable damage in terms of rage generation but that seems like something annoying to manage for both the player and developer.
    I figured as much, the issue is that it'd need to compete with Ignite Weapon and Ravager. I suppose it could just be put in as the same thing as now, but as a talent choice with higher rage generation on damage, but that would be nearly impossible to balance for PvE. So I figured just making it an alternate DPS stance to replace battle (if you choose it) would at least be something.

    Even making it an AoE stance wouldn't help becasue what matters most is single target. Ravager already isn't going to be chosen by PvP warriors at all.

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Archimtiros's Avatar
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    I thought the same idea, making a "Gladiator Stance" talent for Arms/Fury, but I don't know what you'd replace because all three lvl 100 talents are pretty good right now. Prob Ignite Weapon but even though I don't particularly like the way it diminishes CS, I kinda like the talents concept.

    Thing is, its hard to come up with a way to make Berserker Stance both situational and not stackable with cooldowns. We want it situational so that, as Trubo pointed out above, you didn't just sit in it all day instead of Battle (because then Battle becomes the worthless stance).

    At the same time, I thought why not make Berserker Stance into a cooldown of some sort? Increases damage/rage generation by X for Y seconds. Z second cooldown.
    But then I realized people would just macro that into CS or Recklessness or whatever, and it doesn't really do anything special. Considering they want to cut excess CDs and CD stacking, I don't think its a particularly good idea.

    So I am really not sure. I know people like the rage gain idea. I toyed with the idea of increased rage generation somehow, or a rage/health tradeoff. Only thing I can think of to keep the ability as is if it was "smarter" and only gave you rage from direct damage/raidwide AoE damage, ie: not avoidable damage like voidzones, fire lines, etc, and hopefully worked through absorbs to stop /cancelaura macros. I'm not even sure that is possible with how the game is designed.

  5. #5
    Mechagnome Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    So I am really not sure. I know people like the rage gain idea. I toyed with the idea of increased rage generation somehow, or a rage/health tradeoff. Only thing I can think of to keep the ability as is if it was "smarter" and only gave you rage from direct damage/raidwide AoE damage, ie: not avoidable damage like voidzones, fire lines, etc, and hopefully worked through absorbs to stop /cancelaura macros. I'm not even sure that is possible with how the game is designed.
    Please stop trying to get gladiator change from prot dps, leave my baby alone.

    The problem I see with berserker stance is it just too powerful in some situations and its impossible to balance around even if you made it only gain rage from non-avoidable damage.

  6. #6
    I'm thinking the same Arch, making BzS into a CD of sort and just let it do the same thing it dose now. I was thinking that it would work something like Vengeance works today, with avoidable damage like Fires or sawblades not yielding any damage bonus, but damage auras / pulses, debuffs, attacks etc. Seeing as the tech is there for Vengeance I would assume that they could carry it over into BzS.

  7. #7
    Berserker stance needs to go away in its' current incarnation. I see no point in having three stances in the game at this point. One offensive and one defensive stance is all that the class requires and all it ever really required. If you want to bake Berserker stances mechanics into some other game mechanic (CD, glyph, whatever...) so be it but 2 stances for warriors is the best game design IMO.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Keensteel View Post
    Berserker stance needs to go away in its' current incarnation. I see no point in having three stances in the game at this point. One offensive and one defensive stance is all that the class requires and all it ever really required. If you want to bake Berserker stances mechanics into some other game mechanic (CD, glyph, whatever...) so be it but 2 stances for warriors is the best game design IMO.
    Which is why that was the exact thing I suggested.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Warriorsarri View Post
    I'm thinking the same Arch, making BzS into a CD of sort and just let it do the same thing it dose now. I was thinking that it would work something like Vengeance works today, with avoidable damage like Fires or sawblades not yielding any damage bonus, but damage auras / pulses, debuffs, attacks etc. Seeing as the tech is there for Vengeance I would assume that they could carry it over into BzS.
    The only thing I could potentially think of would be if Beserker Stance did the following:

    Berserker Stance replaces Protection Stance
    Instant
    1.5 sec cooldown

    A reckless combat stance.

    Your Rage generation from normal melee attacks is reduced by 75% but your damage is increased by X% and your global cooldown is reduced by .5 seconds.

    this way we could switch to this stance and use it in a colossus smash window, bloodlust times/cooldowns popped or in times where we are swimming in rage. The drawback would make it to where we would eventually want to switch back to Battle Stance so our rotation could normalize. This would allow us to play smarter and give a feel of berserking while it is active.
    Last edited by Vileknight; 2014-04-07 at 06:21 PM.

  10. #10
    Herald of the Titans Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vileknight View Post
    The only thing I could potentially think of would be if Beserker Stance did the following:

    Berserker Stance replaces Protection Stance
    Instant
    1.5 sec cooldown

    A reckless combat stance.

    Your Rage generation from normal melee attacks is reduced by 75% but your damage is increased by X% and your global cooldown is reduced by .5 seconds.

    this way we could switch to this stance and use it in a colossus smash window, bloodlust times/cooldowns popped or in times where we are swimming in rage. The drawback would make it to where we would eventually want to switch back to Battle Stance so our rotation could normalize. This would allow us to play smarter and give a feel of berserking while it is active.
    But why would we not simply macro it to CS and never use it otherwise (unless swimming in rage)? That's exactly what the devs want to avoid and why its so hard to come up with a new idea.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Vileknight View Post
    The only thing I could potentially think of would be if Beserker Stance did the following:

    Berserker Stance replaces Protection Stance
    Instant
    1.5 sec cooldown

    A reckless combat stance.

    Your Rage generation from normal melee attacks is reduced by 75% but your damage is increased by X% and your global cooldown is reduced by .5 seconds.

    this way we could switch to this stance and use it in a colossus smash window, bloodlust times/cooldowns popped or in times where we are swimming in rage. The drawback would make it to where we would eventually want to switch back to Battle Stance so our rotation could normalize. This would allow us to play smarter and give a feel of berserking while it is active.
    As Archi said thats one of the things that Blizz is trying to avoid and rightfully so. Its exactly the same as dragonsoul playing arms and having everything macroed which is stupid design.

    Also, personally, i would like some things to get more attention and try more to make them work, ie zerg stance, before they wake up one day and say hey lets remove that cause it doesn't fit our future design. Saying you only need "battle and prot at this point" doesn't seem right. So it was ok for 9 years and suddenly we don't need it? How about actually make it worth having it? Even now there have been many situations that you could use it. Yes on 25man was probably used alot more than 10 cause the way it worked but still...
    If i were to take another look at it, zerg stance should have always been the fury stance. Thats the way it used to be anyway, zerg was the go stance for fury after charging in.
    I guess you could even have it removed as it is now and place it right there as a lvl100 talent that will grang you an extra ability or something i dont know. So, fury, the reckless berserker without zerg stance, right..

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Vileknight View Post
    The only thing I could potentially think of would be if Beserker Stance did the following:

    Berserker Stance replaces Protection Stance
    Instant
    1.5 sec cooldown

    A reckless combat stance.

    Your Rage generation from normal melee attacks is reduced by 75% but your damage is increased by X% and your global cooldown is reduced by .5 seconds.

    this way we could switch to this stance and use it in a colossus smash window, bloodlust times/cooldowns popped or in times where we are swimming in rage. The drawback would make it to where we would eventually want to switch back to Battle Stance so our rotation could normalize. This would allow us to play smarter and give a feel of berserking while it is active.
    No. I don't want stance dancing back. It was terrible in cataclysm, and it would be terrible again in WoD.

  13. #13
    High Overlord SkismoID's Avatar
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    How about replacing/renaming battle stance to berzerker stance for Fury only? If they replaced it, they could add a GCD reduction component just to feel more "aggressive" or something similar and then balance other abilities to compensate.

    Considering that "zerker stance" have been a signature stance of fury warriors, wouldn't be pity to completely remove it just like this?
    Last edited by SkismoID; 2014-04-08 at 12:55 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by skatyer View Post
    How about replacing/renaming battle stance to berzerker stance for Fury only? If they replaced it, they could add a GCD reduction component just to feel more "aggressive" or something similar and then balance other abilities to compensate.

    Considering that "zerker stance" have been a signature stance of fury warriors, wouldn't be pity to remove it just like this?
    I kinda like this idea. Battle stance for Arms, Berserker Stance for fury. That was kinda the original purpose anyway. The issue with current zerker is that the rage gen from damage is impossible to balance properly. Whereas before berserker stance did other things making it viable in other ways.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    But why would we not simply macro it to CS and never use it otherwise (unless swimming in rage)? That's exactly what the devs want to avoid and why its so hard to come up with a new idea.
    but that would be inefficient if you only used it during CS.

    My original thought was this would act like a pseudo eclipse for fury warriors, we build rage to a point where berserker rage becomes active (say you can only activate it when you hit 100 rage or some other mark) then you would switch your stance and your playstyle would feel faster until you burn your rage off and shift back to battle stance.

  16. #16
    I don't see GCD reduction baked into a stance happening. It would ruin haste scaling, which is already improved upon by haste already reducing the cooldown and GCD of your meat-n-potatoes abilities. Having a 1 second GCD would require the need to nerf other parts of your abilities, plus it would create gaps where you do nothign, possibly large caps, which would result in you guys whining that you dont have enough rage to fill every GCD.

  17. #17
    Stood in the Fire FAILoZOFF's Avatar
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    Warriors would be fine with 2 stance system: offensive and defensive; introduction or 3rd is troublesome because it needs to fit between them and still be useful.
    DKs would feel wrong with 2 stances because they utilize these 3 "elements' that make them DK, so stripping them out of 1 presence representating it would be kinda meh, but ultimately they too suffer from this problem "how to fit 2 offensive stances without making 1 worse/useless".

  18. #18
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by FAILoZOFF View Post
    Warriors would be fine with 2 stance system: offensive and defensive; introduction or 3rd is troublesome because it needs to fit between them and still be useful.
    DKs would feel wrong with 2 stances because they utilize these 3 "elements' that make them DK, so stripping them out of 1 presence representating it would be kinda meh, but ultimately they too suffer from this problem "how to fit 2 offensive stances without making 1 worse/useless".

    Might be true for this expansion. Berserkstance did quite fine earlier...
    Quote Originally Posted by magnuzze View Post
    considering that TG warriors was here since Vanilla, and DK's got into the World of warcraft in WoTLK... you can say that they have been stealing 2-handed from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    There is a reason you don't just pull numbers out of your ass and throw them on the forums. People will show you wrong. Ass numbers are useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrien View Post
    I can't believe warriors wine about their defensive capabilities. DK's and warrs are even on heals.

  19. #19
    Herald of the Titans Archimtiros's Avatar
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    DKs have never swapped between presences the way warriors have always danced however. Very rarely for speed boosting purposes and the like but not fluidly in combat. Their presences, like monk stances are simply flavor. They coul have one that changed effect based on spec and it'd work just the same.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Valech View Post
    Might be true for this expansion. Berserkstance did quite fine earlier...
    Berserk stance did more when it did more than just allow rage when hurt. When it became just that, thats when it became an odd thing to use. Nearly impossible to balance properly when all it does is cause a bonus for taking damage.

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