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  1. #1

    Is Garrosh normal too hard for pugs?

    Or are most players in pugs just not good enough?

    Personally i dont think Garrosh normal is too hard at all, havde killed him as dps, healer and tank 30+ times with main progressing on hc garrosh.

    But since the opening of crossrealm pugs my experience in pugs has been both great and awfull.
    For 3 weeks in a row i have pugged SoO normal on my new druid tank and every time we have 1shot almost all bosses up to 13/14, so all in all som very smooth clears. But then comes Garrosh, and its like ppl forget their brains and execution of encounter mechanics does not compute.

    Its come to a point where most pugs just disband (at least from what i've tried and heard from friends) at 13/14 to go remake for Garrosh only with better geared players, which is a real pitty.

    Seems like the difficulty jump from siege/klaxi to Garrosh is much larger then it perhaps should be, at least for pugs.
    From my point of view dps is much too important on garrosh. with enough dps you practicly nerf the encounter to oblivion by removing the hard parts.
    You wont be getting more then 1 empowered whirling, where the adds can just be ignored or kited by the tank.
    You wont be getting more then 1 empowered mind control where u can easily be stacked at boss with no worry of desecrate or whirling.

    BUT on the other hand, if u have low dps, the encounter dont just get harder because its gonna take longer, u also have to deal with several empowered whirlings and several empowered mind control, and the fight can just spiral out of control in no time.

    Which has lead to Pug leaders to wanting overgear it, leaving out the players who cleared 13/14 with no real problems, which i kinda understand, but think is very unfortunate. In example, i only got my 548 druid tank on a garrosh only cuz i have a 12/14hc main.

    For most guilds this isnt much of an issue, cuz they usually have the same ppl every week and better communication.

    B4 Blizz opened for Crossrealm pugs i didnt think much about Garrosh, but for the past weeks i have been really surprised about the fail rate on garrosh and started thinking, is this just the players beeing too lazy to learn tactics and learn to play their class properly, or is the difficulty jump up to Garrosh, from the rest of the bosses a bit too high?

    The easy answer is both, but to which side do you lean the most?

  2. #2
    I'm in pretty much the same boat as you. It is a lot harder than the preceding bosses but its a final boss so I'm perfectly fine with it.

    High dps just allows you to ignore phases where execution is important (EWC's). Most of the failed pugs I've been with just run around in circles screaming like their hair is on fire when EWC adds start spawning. They then forget about the MC's even though they've broken people out perfectly 5 time earlier in the fight when things were less hectic.

    Bottom line, I'm fine with it being hard. The groups that don't have the dps to ignore mechanics should learn to deal with them. They should learn some patience or accept they won't get the kill.

  3. #3
    Yes they should learn, but will they?

  4. #4
    I have yet to kill garish on any toon because of this. My guild transferred servers while i was on a hiatus. So I've been pugging it on several toons for a month. OQueue doesn't give or have enough people that know the fight well enough to actually down it without wiping MANY times (so many that i run out of time). Openraid seems to have more skilled/geared players, but then they only look for like-skilled/geared players. I'm sorry, but 565 for Garrosh? Not necessary and that would also mean that the person they get would be in heroics already.

  5. #5
    Depending how the fight looks like when you are wiping, then it might be the communication that can screw it over.
    Even though it is not the greatest example, then both in LFR and Flex I keep seeing groups wiping over and over again, due to little to no communication, especially when people starts to get Mindcontrolled. Now, it aint hard to avoid it, but usually it happens when 1 mc'ed person is forgotten or that all focus-interrupts only 1 of the Mc'ed persons, letting the rest go rampart and Mc the rest of the group. Havent tried crossrealming SoO normal yet, but could be the reason *shrug*

  6. #6
    B4 Blizz opened for Crossrealm pugs i didnt think much about Garrosh, but for the past weeks i have been really surprised about the fail rate on garrosh and started thinking, is this just the players beeing too lazy to learn tactics and learn to play their class properly, or is the difficulty jump up to Garrosh, from the rest of the bosses a bit too high?
    Just like lei shen used to be, garrosh is at the level an instance end boss is meant to be.
    you want to down him without too much of a hassle ? that's what lfr is for.
    you want to go beyond that ? it's not the game's fault if you're unable to, so GET YOUR FINGERS OUT OF YOUR ASS.

    Infracted; Don't be rude to other place.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2014-04-10 at 05:00 AM.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by koimagheul View Post
    Just like lei shen used to be, garrosh is at the level an instance end boss is meant to be.
    you want to down him without too much of a hassle ? that's what lfr is for.
    you want to go beyond that ? it's not the game's fault if you're unable to, so GET YOUR FINGERS OUT OF YOUR ASS.
    IDK but lei shen normal felt ALOT easier to pug. Back in 5.2 I could pug lei shen normal without much failure (compared to n garrosh).

  8. #8
    Pandaren Monk Anzen's Avatar
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    I remember the first time I tried to pug Garrosh when it went X-realm (I usually set up my own runs with friends).

    Never. Again.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by koimagheul View Post
    ... GET YOUR FINGERS OUT OF YOUR ASS.
    That's a bit rude... OP is asking why garrosh is way more difficult than the other boss of the instance


    I guess it is one of the only boss where one or two good guys in the raid can't make up for the others, strat wise (malkorok being one too, but there were threads calling him the pug breaker, too).

    On malkorok, everybody have to move to the right spot (be it the purple pool, out of the breath or packed this everybody in p2)
    (on thok, there is room for individual failure too : but it is easier to understand : "you're targetted ? you flee in the opposite direction")
    On garrosh, everybody have to interrupt (and target switching), at least on empowered MC. But earlier in the fight if the 2 guys doing the MC are targetted by it, you'll wipe too.

    On other bosses there is less randomness on who have to do the strat, so the 1-2 good guys from the group will do, and the random elements won't wipe the raid.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by koimagheul View Post
    Just like lei shen used to be, garrosh is at the level an instance end boss is meant to be.
    you want to down him without too much of a hassle ? that's what lfr is for.
    you want to go beyond that ? it's not the game's fault if you're unable to, so GET YOUR FINGERS OUT OF YOUR ASS.
    Thats kind of an elitist oppinion... which imo fits better for SoO HC.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Arialonos View Post
    I have yet to kill garish on any toon because of this. My guild transferred servers while i was on a hiatus. So I've been pugging it on several toons for a month. OQueue doesn't give or have enough people that know the fight well enough to actually down it without wiping MANY times (so many that i run out of time). Openraid seems to have more skilled/geared players, but then they only look for like-skilled/geared players. I'm sorry, but 565 for Garrosh? Not necessary and that would also mean that the person they get would be in heroics already.
    People do that because they look at it as everyone is a bad player so the chance of getting a very bad player at 565 is less than the chance of getting one at 540. I have pug it so much and have ran into many people around 560 what can't seem to pull their weight, and fail to stupid mechanics.

    Example: Hunters seems to fail the most during Garrosh's ground smash transition phase, i mean come on you can move and use your damn skills, and you don't range blind spot like in Vanilla WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chriss007 View Post
    Thats kind of an elitist oppinion... which imo fits better for SoO HC.
    and your mindset is that of the people who want free epics, that is what Raidfinder and Flex is for.

    But from my experience when all dps knows what they need to do, and are around 200k, Garrosh can be solo tanked and down before even 1 corrupted WW in phase 2 and 1 in phase 3 (which will be when he is around 8%)
    Last edited by Kioshi; 2014-04-07 at 12:43 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Chriss007 View Post
    Thats kind of an elitist oppinion... which imo fits better for SoO HC.
    LFR is faceroll. Flex is pretty easy. Normal isn't too hard and wasn't originally intended to be puggable cross-realm, but Garrosh is the final boss of the tier. If you're capable of killing Garrosh, it means you're ready to move on to Heroic content. In fact, your raid leader has to have a normal Garrosh kill before you can set the raid to Heroic. I see no issue with making Garrosh difficult. A bit OT, but in the next expansion, normal difficulty raids will be renamed Heroic.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Chriss007 View Post
    BUT on the other hand, if u have low dps, the encounter dont just get harder because its gonna take longer, u also have to deal with several empowered whirlings and several empowered mind control, and the fight can just spiral out of control in no time.
    Isn't that the whole point of this game? You do more damage, fights become easier/doable.

  14. #14
    550+ pugs kill him easily. He is also tuned for this ilvl.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  15. #15
    Pandaren Monk
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    Yes, Garrosh is a lot more challenging than the rest of the instance and there are a number of typical pitfalls for most pugs.

    1) People lie during recruitment: A lot of people join a Garrosh pug even though they aren't really good enough or experienced enough, but hope that no one will notice and that the rest of the group will be able to carry them.

    2) People lack patience: One of the biggest determinants of success in a raid encounter like Garrosh is practice. Practice, practice, practice. It's not just about knowing the fight, it's also about co-ordinating with your group. A lot of people quit after 1 or 2 wipes, which disrupts the group and sets them back. Then you need to get in a new person or 3 which ups the risk of another wipe.


    What is needed is for everyone in the group to commit themselves to downing the boss, and an astute raid leader who can identify firstly where the raid is failing, and how to fix it, including the ability to recognise individuals who are going to block success.

    Raiders need to also take more individual responsibility and make sure they have enough gear and then learn the fight properly by reading up the strategies, watching videos, and then practicing it in flex without the LFR mindset of just blasting through it.

    A raid of decent players who are prepared to stick it out will most likely achieve success within a reasonable time-frame. But when you have elitists who bugger off after 2 wipes combined with people who never bothered to pay attention during Flex and exaggerated their gear level by 5 or so points, you are always going to struggle. Raid leaders who are too eager to kick, raid leaders who are too reluctant to kick. Raid leaders who formed a group to carry them, these are all problems that result in wipe after wipe after wipe.

    But if you have a group of reasonably experienced raiders with the right gear and enough patience, then a kill will come. Sadly, finding such a group is pretty difficult because too many players are simply looking for a fast kill or a carry...

  16. #16
    I have 1 shot Garrosh numerous times with PuGs while leading and the only thing it comes down to is people executing the strat that the raid leader lays out.

    I prefer the stack method for both P1 and P2 and tell people explicitly to directly target the axes and kill them ASAP. I also set out a cooldown list for the 3 Whirling Corruptions before Intermission 2 which then repeat themselves after that. If I have recruited well I will only get 1 EWC in P3. If people deem themselves too important or are simply lazy and don't hit the weapons or use their CDs the strat will fail and it will be a wipe, if they follow what I say we will kill him.

    There are a million strats out there but the key point in a PuG is too keep it simple. The intricate strat that took your guild took 100 wipes to get used to won't work for a PuG. As a raider in a PuG you need to be flexible and follow what the RL says. Trying to shoe horn your guild strat in the middle of a fight won't work and will lead to a wipe.

    Last point is to never keep the bads. Keeping the bads will lead to you loosing the good players. Be firm and objective with your expectations at the start of your run and hold every player to them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arialonos View Post
    I have yet to kill garish on any toon because of this. My guild transferred servers while i was on a hiatus. So I've been pugging it on several toons for a month. OQueue doesn't give or have enough people that know the fight well enough to actually down it without wiping MANY times (so many that i run out of time). Openraid seems to have more skilled/geared players, but then they only look for like-skilled/geared players. I'm sorry, but 565 for Garrosh? Not necessary and that would also mean that the person they get would be in heroics already.
    I was unaware PuGs are used for progression. Flex was tuned for organized raid groups so sure as hell Normal is as well. The reason Normal PuGs work is because people have done their progression with their guild first and put in the hours of wipes there. How arrogant to think you can come in and waste peoples time while you progress.

  17. #17
    Last point is to never keep the bads. Keeping the bads will lead to you loosing the good players. Be firm and objective with your expectations at the start of your run and hold every player to them.
    ^This.

    I might give people 2 chances because maybe bad lag or whatever caused them to do shit dps or die to stupid easy mechanics the first time. But keeping bads is one of the biggest pug destroyers.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kioshi View Post
    Example: Hunters seems to fail the most during Garrosh's ground smash transition phase, i mean come on you can move and use your damn skills, and you don't range blind spot like in Vanilla WoW.
    My main is a hunter, so I have had time to figure out why hunters fail:

    As a hunter, your natural instinct is to keep your distance. Hunters need to learn to stay close in this encounter for a number of reasons:
    1) The further you are from the boss, the more you have to move.
    2) Hunters are more likely to not receive the buff from the adds before engaging Garrosh unless they get up close and personal when it does. Even if you're able to successfully avoid getting hit by the cone attack, it still does a significant amount of aoe, and without the buff, you are likely to get killed.
    3) Standing at range means less aoe healing from spells like healing rain which again is a big problem with the amount of aoe damage during the phase.


    Personally I breezed through flex with my hunter. I think I probably died on my first attempt in the transition phase because I didn't get close enough and then couldn't get out of the cone in time, but 1 death was enough to learn that lesson. What got me killed a lot in normal though was not having the buff. The point being that I didn't realise I was missing it.

    I knew from reading the strategies that the adds gave you the buff when they died so you needed to be nearby. What I didn't know was that they dropped a small bubble when they died and that you needed to stand in that bubble. I just thought if you're on top of the adds, you'll be fine.

    It was about 2 weeks later that I finally figured out exactly what the problem was, because I kept on dying to the aoe. At some point I figured out I wasn't always getting the buff, and then soon figured out what to do. Of course the whole thing would have been a lot less painful if someone else in the raid had maybe thought to mention this at some stage. But oh no, of course it's much easier to ridicule the "noob" huntard for failing to move out of the easily visible ground effect, even when he insists that he avoided it....

    Lesson learned: Don't always expect everyone to know all the details of the fight. A guy like me is doing Garrosh on OpenRaid because my guild isn't up to the task. I have done all I can to be prepared. My gear was ilevel 563 before it became X-realm. I knew most of the fights pretty well from a combination of doing my homework and then practicing the fights in flex, but there are always going to be little things that one misses, especially if those aspects aren't critical to get right in flex.

    This is true not just for hunters, but for a lot of people. Groups need to take cognisance of this and help fellow pugs. Most of the Garrosh fails aren't because the a member of the group is bad, or was carried. It's because they are making 1 or 2 small mistakes due to lack of experience, and lack of anyone pointing out what they are doing wrong.

    Worst Garrosh experience ever: I joined a 25 man Openraid group. It took about an hour to form the group.

    First wipe was in P1. We got back up, raid leader re-explained what went wrong. We go again. This time we get to p3, and as soon as the adds pop out about 5 people die. Obviously it's a wipe. But the reaction was terrible.

    One guy raging in raid chat: "KANKER DPS!!!"

    Like really? What the hell man? And then of course 3 or 4 leave and the next thing the raid falls apart.

    Stupid, STUPID people. I mean you just spent an hour getting a raid together, clearing through trash, explaining tactics etc etc, and then you leave after 15 minutes because of a small bloodied nose. And those cancerous elitists who feel the need to get angry at those who failed, it's as if they joined the raid hoping some dps would fail just so that they could get their kicks out of showing how superior they are.

    No, what was needed was cool heads. Firstly those idiots who felt the need to verbally attack the group needed to calm the fuck down and grow up. Secondly those idiots who thought they would be better off abandoning ship needed a bit more patience. I am pretty certain that the raid leader we had would have explained in a bit more detail how to handle P3 properly. We could have gone again and improved. The overall dps and healing in the group was great and we were motoring through phases and people seemed to have a good grip on P1 and P2 and the transition phase.

    Sometimes people need to look at the bigger picture. If you quit the raid after 2 wipes, what are you accomplishing:

    1) You are going to have to find a new group - which wastes more time.
    2) If the next group fails as well - you keep wasting even more.
    3) Because these people are actively sabotaging groups, it means that the "bads" in the group don't get to learn. Which means that the next time said elitist is looking in OpenRaid for a Garrosh pug, he's going to land up with those same "bads" who are still trying to get the kill.

    If, on the other hand, these fools actually had a bit of patience and helped the "bads" to learn the fight, then that time spent wiping and looking for the group isn't wasted - it's invested and the rewards will repay themselves 10 times over during the following weeks as pugs rapidly start to get better and better.

    Just sayin...

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    No, what was needed was cool heads. Firstly those idiots who felt the need to verbally attack the group needed to calm the fuck down and grow up. Secondly those idiots who thought they would be better off abandoning ship needed a bit more patience. I am pretty certain that the raid leader we had would have explained in a bit more detail how to handle P3 properly. We could have gone again and improved. The overall dps and healing in the group was great and we were motoring through phases and people seemed to have a good grip on P1 and P2 and the transition phase.
    I love how you called everyone an idiot except those that failed.

    On your earlier point, if you don't know how to get the buff you've lied on your experience part. On my earlier point in another post, PuGs aren't there for people to progress.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kioshi View Post

    and your mindset is that of the people who want free epics, that is what Raidfinder and Flex is for.

    But from my experience when all dps knows what they need to do, and are around 200k, Garrosh can be solo tanked and down before even 1 corrupted WW in phase 2 and 1 in phase 3 (which will be when he is around 8%)
    Lol have u even read my OP? have never talked about free epics! Im talking about the jump in difficulty from siege/klaxi to garrosh which isnt in line with the rest of the instance.

    And we are talking about pugs with regular ppl, not solotanking it, which is a tactic that not many uses, definetly not the ppl who havnt overgeared it yet.

    U are talking about what is possible, and i that context, paragon was able to defeat him on hc with something like 568ilvl, but just because its possible, it shouldnt mean that every1 should be able to do it!

    All bosses get easier with better gear, but theres isnt a boss in SoO where the difference from being geared enoug to overgearing it, is this big. Because on Garrosh enough dps actually means removing the hard mechanics of the fight. U could bring 10 575 monkeys and they would still kill it.

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