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  1. #61
    Or are most players in pugs just not good enough?
    It's more a problem of the player mentality. Pugs have some disadvantages most people in pugs doesn't mind. You play with people first time you never played with, everyone has a different experience over the content. Also pugs are very fragile. You are not bound to everyone, there is no guild mentality in there so, some people don't care about what the raid leader says. Especially for x-realm groups these problems weight even more.

    And yes, some people are ridiculous stupid, but that's a side problem.

  2. #62
    I don't see what the problem is with the endboss being slightly harder btw. It gives you a bit of a goal to look forward to while still being able to kill 13 other bosses to get more gear. Horridon in ToT was a lot more hassle for pugs to overcome for example, and gave you exactly 1 "easy" boss.
    Pugging Pre nerf 10m normal Horridon was not anywhere near as bad a n 10 garrosh.

  3. #63
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KClovesGaming View Post
    My raid group still can't kill him and it's been months. It's those stupid adds. They just randomly all pile onto one person and it's game over. A healer, a dps etc. It's completely random. We easily have the dps by now, but those adds are just not playing nice. lol
    They only pile on 1 person if A.) Some idiot aoe's them or B.) No one immediately attacks their add once it pops up. Even healers can pop their add with a simple damage spell so it sticks to them until a DPS finishes their add.

    Spread out, 8-10 yards, wait for your purple puddle to spawn and move out of it. Then blast your add, and help with the healers after it dies.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpette View Post
    Nice hyperbole. Too bad it's completely untrue. Unless by random group you mean only people that have never done it before, don't know how to play their class and/or don't know how to gem/enchant their gear. Killed it multiple times in a pug, usually with couple of wipes due to group never having played with each other but it goes down. We didn't bring 530 geared people, no, but that's not what garrosh normal is tuned for anyway. Mostly mixture of 545-565 people, with - say- 6-9 or so that have done it before on normal.
    Starting with no more than 3-4 people who have done the encounter together, go ahead and put together a pug with AIL 545, with no voice comms, that clears Flex 4.

    You give that a few tries and then let me know how it goes.

    Then you can tell me about how a group of AIL 555 or 558 pugged Garrosh normal.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Imhere View Post
    Pugging Pre nerf 10m normal Horridon was not anywhere near as bad a n 10 garrosh.
    Not if you have to believe forums and see pugs just being able to kill just jin'rokh every day. There's also a massive difference between having 1 easy boss to farm or 13.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    Starting with no more than 3-4 people who have done the encounter together, go ahead and put together a pug with AIL 545, with no voice comms, that clears Flex 4.

    You give that a few tries and then let me know how it goes.

    Then you can tell me about how a group of AIL 555 or 558 pugged Garrosh normal.
    No clue why I would do flex to prove something I actually did myself in normal to some stranger over the internet. Just because you can't find correct groups or people with a brain doesn't mean it can't happen. I've pugged garrosh multiple times, and not all of them were 560+ or whatever you claim is needed. Just people with brains who have done the fight before (on flex at the very least).

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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpette View Post
    No clue why I would do flex to prove something I actually did myself in normal to some stranger over the internet. Just because you can't find correct groups or people with a brain doesn't mean it can't happen. I've pugged garrosh multiple times, and not all of them were 560+ or whatever you claim is needed. Just people with brains who have done the fight before (on flex at the very least).
    No, you absolutely have not "pugged" Garrosh normal with a 558 AIL group. You may have done it with experienced raiders who had ALL done the encounter on Normal before and who had all or almost all played together before (perhaps extensively), and who were all or mostly all on voice comms, and some of whom were heroic geared.

    But, show me logs where you really and truly pugged Garrosh with a real pug group in instance-appropriate gear, and I'll change my mind.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    No, you absolutely have not "pugged" Garrosh normal with a 558 AIL group. You may have done it with experienced raiders who had ALL done the encounter on Normal before and who had all or almost all played together before (perhaps extensively), and who were all or mostly all on voice comms, and some of whom were heroic geared.

    But, show me logs where you really and truly pugged Garrosh with a real pug group in instance-appropriate gear, and I'll change my mind.
    I've done it before with 550. Not really that unrealistic.

  8. #68
    In 25 man it's a lot more easier than 10 if you pug it. Did it in a GDKP run without any problem.

    But I remember how hard it was when we did it in the first weeks of the raid on our alts in 10 man, tanks needed to be geared a lot more to do it, so basically it's all about item level, but 6 months in I'm going to assume most people will overgear the encounter by now.
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  9. #69
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    In 25 man it's a lot more easier than 10 if you pug it. Did it in a GDKP run without any problem.
    GDKP run assumes that the raid consists mainly of well geared people. In groups like these the leader has obviously made sure that at least the majority of people are capable of executing all the mechanics properly and doing nice numbers. GDKP is not your average PUG. 25-man Garrosh is easy as long as you have the DPS and healing numbers to make sure of it. With low healing and low DPS not likely you'll get the kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    But I remember how hard it was when we did it in the first weeks of the raid on our alts in 10 man, tanks needed to be geared a lot more to do it, so basically it's all about item level, but 6 months in I'm going to assume most people will overgear the encounter by now.
    TBH it is split between ilvl and skill. Like many had said before you can have the gear, but if you lack the skill or knowledge it won't be that easy, no matter how well geared some of the people are. How can you assume that most people will over gear the content :P? What about alts and completely new guys, who are actually the ones interested in runs like these?
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2014-04-09 at 05:12 AM.
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  10. #70
    Pandaren Monk Lora's Avatar
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    People barely kill him in LFR so I am going to assume its hard for pugs. The encounter itself isn't hard, some players just lack the coordination or ability to not stand in shit.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    No, you absolutely have not "pugged" Garrosh normal with a 558 AIL group. You may have done it with experienced raiders who had ALL done the encounter on Normal before and who had all or almost all played together before (perhaps extensively), and who were all or mostly all on voice comms, and some of whom were heroic geared.

    But, show me logs where you really and truly pugged Garrosh with a real pug group in instance-appropriate gear, and I'll change my mind.
    I don't run logs and barely play anymore. I most certainly did though. All had done the fight before on normal? Nope, I definitly remember FoS popping up and armorying people while waiting to fill up I didn't see 560+ everywhere, nor full achievement on all, just people with proper gems/enchants, who seemed to have a clue what they were doing. Did a lot already do it on normal? Probably, not on that character or that roll per se. All of them did it on flex however which would be sort silly to NOT require if you ask me.

    Given that you seem to be of the idea that voice comm in pugs is out of this world or very rare at the least, it just becomes really clear to me that you definitly are looking for the wrong type of groups or couldn't see a proper one forming from a mile away. Ofcourse proper groups use some sort of TS/vent/mumble/... There's a reason I got all installed, and it's not because our guild runs swap voice comm on a weekly base.

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  12. #72
    I pug Garrosh every once in a while. Still haven't gotten him down but I don't really expect to, as I'm 13/14 myself. I've learned a lot from each attempt and I think it's a very fun fight, so I don't mind it. I'll probably down him with the guild soon, at which point I can join or create groups with achievement only and it will be farm every week I expect

  13. #73
    I've successfully PUGed N Garrosh several times before x-realm was enabled. Most have been pugging into guild runs, with some pure trade pugs. 3 weeks ago, the PUG I was in went 7/14H and finished the run on Normal, and had no difficulty with Garrosh. A lot of people who are new to the fight (which IMO doesn't include people with significant experience on Garrosh but who haven't killed him yet) struggle with Empowered Whirling adds and with MC's. If people mess up those mechanics, they will wipe the raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chriss007 View Post
    It's come to a point where most pugs just disband (at least from what i've tried and heard from friends) at 13/14 to go remake for Garrosh only with better geared players, which is a real pity. Which has lead to Pug leaders to wanting overgear it, leaving out the players who cleared 13/14 with no real problems, which i kinda understand, but think is very unfortunate.
    I agree though that a raid leader tends to have more options on people to bring for a Garrosh kill than for one starting earlier in the instance, and there are a fair number of people who do Heroic raids with their guild, don't need any more gear from Normals, but who want to PUG Garrosh in order to get a shot at the BoA's. Anyone who was left out is able to make their own group (with each other, or finding new people) using their raid lock.
    Last edited by Candescently; 2014-04-09 at 03:24 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Candescently View Post
    I've successfully PUGed N Garrosh several times before x-realm was enabled. Most have been pugging into guild runs, with some pure trade pugs. 3 weeks ago, the PUG I was in went 7/14H and finished the run on Normal, and had no difficulty with Garrosh.
    Wow theres a shocker. 7/14HC group not struggling with garrosh normal? How is that relevant to the conversation at hand?

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    GDKP run assumes that the raid consists mainly of well geared people. In groups like these the leader has obviously made sure that at least the majority of people are capable of executing all the mechanics properly and doing nice numbers. GDKP is not your average PUG. 25-man Garrosh is easy as long as you have the DPS and healing numbers to make sure of it. With low healing and low DPS not likely you'll get the kill.
    I was one of the most geared people as we hosted the GDKP with 560 iLvl on my priest then. We were maybe 6 or 7 only on their alts from our guild, rest were pugs and we carried a LOT of bads.. so yeah, 25 is a lot easier than 10 to carry people.
    Karuzo, mistweaver monk | Macphisto, discipline priest

  16. #76
    Not overtuned at all, the end-boss is supposed to be harder than the other bosses.
    I pug-kill Garrosh on 3 characters weekly without issues, its just down to finding the right people.
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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    It's more a problem of the player mentality. Pugs have some disadvantages most people in pugs doesn't mind. You play with people first time you never played with, everyone has a different experience over the content. Also pugs are very fragile. You are not bound to everyone, there is no guild mentality in there so, some people don't care about what the raid leader says. Especially for x-realm groups these problems weight even more.

    And yes, some people are ridiculous stupid, but that's a side problem.
    I have seen my guild's raid lead - normally a reasonable dude - become an insane, bloodthirsty s***talker after two wipes to flex Nazgrim. It amazing what happens in PUGs.

  18. #78
    Garrosh is a large step up from prior 13 bosses.

    If you have the DPS to push Garrosh to P3 without an EWC, its a faceroll, just need one calm head to ensure people break the Emp Minds once, place weapons.

    On the other hand if you don't have that DPS, then you are looking at EWC's, typically 2 before P3 and 1-2 in P3. The real issue with this fight is it takes a group 8-9 minutes to reach the point where EWC's happen. It is damn hard to practice that mechanic when in a 3 hour raid your only hitting it 15 times and wiping on the first EWC. This is where most PuGs fall apart and its typically the guys who have killed Garrosh multiple times that bail first.

    Our 10 man lost two 300K plus DPS to another game, replacing them has been painful ONLY on Garrosh.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Xkiller9000 View Post
    The difficulty curve jump should happen for the last boss, and either way, Garrosh is insanely easy, its common sense mechanics, kill MCd people, and stand on him when he whirls, dont stand in bad stuff, kill adds, taunt rotation.
    Yes i agree, it should be common sense, but reality is sadly another thing.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Not overtuned at all, the end-boss is supposed to be harder than the other bosses.
    I pug-kill Garrosh on 3 characters weekly without issues, its just down to finding the right people.
    it would be cool if not the fact that at least few of hc bosses are mechanicly much much easier then garosh normal -_- i rememebr my guild got garosh normal kill and then it took us 3 weeks to rekill him while we downed 5 hc bosses in the meantime -_- we just couldnt repeat the kill due to stupid mistakes while first few hc felt mechanically much easier then him - this is my main dislike in this fight - thats its booring liek fuck 10 minutes and then u have pretty demanding mechanics to deal with if u dont outgear it significanly. and yes doin him with 565+ geared people is overgearing it -_-

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