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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    If you put Warlocks on Belt duty, you are doing it wrong.

    For belt:
    Warrior > Rogue(Combat/Sub) > Hunter > DK(Frost, 2h pref.) > Rest

  2. #22
    Dreadlord theostrichsays's Avatar
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    Personally I would say hunter because you can always post as a sporebat looking for raid group along with having a stable of pets for buff botting. But there is a big demand on locks, with that said I have seen barely any flex groups hunting for a lock they cant find in oQue (good locks maybe but a lock not really) while many groups are missing a buff or two.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Imhere View Post
    Linking to SimCraft results as proof of point is sort of similar to linking to Noxxic as a legitimate source of information. You're looking strictly at best case scenarios for each class. Being ranged and 100% mobile, Hunters get closer to their max potential than any other class. Warriors very rarely get to Patchwerk it up, so their SimC results aren't necessarily indicative of actual performance.

    On topic, if you have the choice between Warlock and -anything- else for PvE content, choose Warlock. It's really not even a fair comparison this expansion.

  4. #24
    Straight up dps fight where the warrior doesnt have to move he can out dps the hunter for sure however hunters will still out dps warriors in most fights as there ability to move from shit and still dps is where hunters close the gap. so go be top dps and bottm on damage taken with your hunter.

    btw i play a warr main prot / fury so not a hunter fanboi, just a realist

  5. #25
    Welcome back! I recently came back from quitting in early cata myself and started as a lock before switching to a hunter.

    First rule is that I would pick which you like more. Warriors, Locks, Hunters are all viable, when played properly. That said, there were some things I noticed on my journey through lfr/flex/normal:

    Melee is generally harder to get into groups as ranged. This is not because melee dps is bad, but because you can only have so many melee in a lot of encounters before mechanics start punishing you. Thus, the warrior would have a harder time getting in groups than a ranged. The same applies for other melee. People are mentioning banners. Banners are strong, but I've never seen a flex group worry about them - it's always brez, lust, and 8/8 buffs.

    Warlock has a strong (deserved) reputation for being on the OP side of things this expansion. They were also heavily revamped in Mists by blizzard and alot of work was put into making their specs very different and fun/new. That said, I played one and didn't enjoy it as much as my hunter (your mileage may vary) and I never felt like any other ranged was more/less desireable than hunters. It usually depends on the group. You will frequently be brought just because people want a specific raid buff from you, often spell haste or crit. I was almost never brought for lust (most seem to forget we have it) and our brez pet is never mentioned.

    Hunters are noticeably more popular with players than dps warriors & locks in pure numbers. This means you face stiffer competition to be the hunter that gets in the group. Generally, there's no way around this - you just put yourself out there for a lot of your groups. I also never had problems with dps. I wasn't always #1 in the group as ilvl has a huge effect on it, but I was always competitive with anyone in similar gear to me. We're also pretty beneficial to groups doing Thok and Siegecrafter (11th and 12th boss in Siege of Orgrimmar that many flexes have trouble with) because our dps isn't punished on Thok compared to melee/casters and belts on Siegecrafter. You will very likely end up doing belts a lot. Get used to it (I enjoy it). Learning how to solo both of them isn't a bad idea either (you disengage on/off belt from top of entry pipe). You'll also likely end up doing siege engineers on Garrosh often. Again, get used to it.

    Again, I emphasize to play whichever you enjoy most. LFR and flex were a bit of a slog for me (I prefer guild play), so being on a class that you actually enjoy playing is the one that'll have you enjoy the game the most.

    -----

    Some tips I found useful in restarting my wow play:

    - Start your legendary cloak quest from Wrathion the day you hit 90. It's a noticeable ilvl & dps boost, and it takes weeks/months. You don't have to be perfectly efficient and do every step in the minimum time possible, but you do need to focus on getting it done.
    - Start killing celestials (world boss on timeless isle) once a week when you hit 90. They drop normal level gear that is a huge ilvl boost in the beginning. The pvp gear works perfectly well in pve, since pvp power is not part of the item budget.
    - I've mentioned ilvl quite a bit - it's important. Much like late Wrath, people will judge you solely by ilvl first before you get a chance to get into a raid. For dps, they frequently want higher numbers than is really needed (545+) because they want a smooth run full of one shots.
    - Get an addon called OQueue. It's on its own website you can find with google. It is VERY useful for getting pug flex groups and world boss groups.
    - When you hit 90, you'll be heading to timeless isle, where 496 gear will essentially rain from the sky. Decide which items to use burdens on carefully (to boost them to 535), as you may only get a few of them depending on RNG.
    - You can farm heroic scenarios for a decent chance at a 516 weapon, which timeless isle won't give you. See OQueue above.
    - You can OQ for normal Throne of Thunder (ToT) groups that drop 522 loot and you can bonus roll all 12 bosses every week, by buying mogu coins with timeless coins. In comparison, you can only bonus roll in siege 3 times a week. I wish I had known about this much, much earlier.
    - When you get to flex level, I found that dps really has to be on the ball to get into groups when you're just breaking into it. I had the most success in watching OQ for fresh groups from 5-7pm CST (US raids mostly run towards 7-11 for perspective). Getting into groups that had already started or groups after 7pm was usually very hit or miss. I would guess that is because those groups always take the higher ilvl dps when they need to fill a slot later and have a waitlist full to choose from. People are generally much more lenient when they're forming the group and worried putting a decent composition together.
    - If you do choose hunter, please don't be one of those hunters that only has a crit wolf and nothing else.
    - If you're anything like me, LFR/flex was quite a slog to get through and it felt like I had to put in a ton of time each week. I nearly quit in fact. But once I pushed through and got into a normal guild, it got much better in both time commitment and fun factor.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by Yakrion; 2014-04-09 at 10:04 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakrion View Post
    First rule is that I would pick which you like more. Warriors, Locks, Hunters are all viable, when played properly.
    This entire thread should be replaced by these two sentences.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMine View Post
    also, hunters can not cover every raid buff, they can cover ONE raid buff. its not like they can magically summon 8 different pets at once to buff everyone.
    No, they can cover EVERY raid buff, they just can't do it all at once, AKA: Utility.

    Simultainously, they can cover 2-3 buffs, provided they don't need to cover a debuff which is something this bad utility class can also do.

  8. #28
    This thread derailed into a ridiculous argument over if warriors are more wanted in raids than hunters.

    For the most of the time, ranged are favored in SoO due to them handling certain mechanics better than melees this patch.
    Bosses like Thok and Siegecrafter hunters>warriors just due to their utility (disengage onto belt, 0 downtime on thok deafening screech+range)

    I dont see it being a discussion there at all, hunters are better than warriors at utility in the raid really its that simple.

    To OP: Play Warlock if you intend on pwning the DPS meters.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhemar View Post
    SimC is good, but not perfect, and I didn't realize you were still fighting Patchwerk. I'm pretty sure the rest of us were talking about Flex SoO, for which 10N is a fairly good substitution for actual, real world performance numbers. Of course, if you'd like to tell me how that simulation of an impossible fight is more accurate than the actual numbers logged by actual players in actual raids, I will prepare to weep. For your addled mind.
    >Protectors
    >Norushen (to an extent)
    >Jug
    >Malk
    >Many others
    All basically patchwerk fights. Melee are on the boss 98%+ of the time performing their rotations. Don't know what you're exactly trying to accomplish here. Trying to justify and defend why your fury warrior gets beat in dps by hunters every fight? If that's the case I suggest you improve your performance because that simcraft link I showed is one of the most accurate sources on this kind of information. You saying "well that's not right, I'm right about what I say and that accurate source of information is wrong" doesn't really help your argument. Kind of makes you look like you have no idea what you're saying actually.


    Everything is either "optimal" or "garbage."

    So, bringing another warlock is "optimal," and bringing most anything else is "garbage."

    In general it seems like flex pugs (the ones that care at all) are thinking: "It seems like it might break the game or be cheating or just too easy if we brought no melee at all, even though melee suck, so I dunno, bring some warriors? And that 563 assassination rogue, he should be okay for Flex 1 you think?"
    You might need to rewrite or rethink your post. I literally have no clue what you're trying to say.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also : Warriors have
    >rallying cry which is useful in just about any raid wide high damage situation.
    Immersues phase 2 adds hitting the boss, Protectors Calamity. Sha of pride swelling pride. Galakaras phase 2, Juggernaut shock pulse, Nazgrim war cry, Malk blood rage, spoils mogu boss aoe pulse shit, thok phase 1, garrosh whirl. Rallying cry is useful in just about every fight this tier.

    >Skull banner which gives a boost to everyone's dps (I'm sure you destro locks will be happy and gladly rape meters with it).

    >Vigilance, being able to reduce the amount of damage someone else takes is always useful.

    >Demoralizing Banner, reducing the damage of everything nearby by 10%, I mean CMON, that's fucking amazing.

    Warriors have so many ways of increasing the survivability of the entire raid while still doing great dps. Why would you NOT want a warrior in your group?

    Hunters have... I guess... buffs if you actually raid 10 mans. In 25 mans their overall usefulness is extremely limited in most SoO encounters.
    Last edited by Imhere; 2014-04-09 at 05:02 PM.

  10. #30
    I will take a hunter over a warrior any day. It's not even close. I do not understand why people think hunters are so bad.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Imhere View Post
    If that's the case I suggest you improve your performance because that simcraft link I showed is one of the most accurate sources on this kind of information.
    Shows destro mid tier and affliction near the bottom. You sure about that accuracy?

  12. #32
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...11100000000000 for people looking for the top 100 guys and to drool at their awesome deeps.
    Just play what you enjoy the most I myself play a hunter and I really like the dynamic and mobile style they provide with a very fast rotation and no downtime at all.

    Oh btw don't know who thought warriors were doing more dps than hunters but surv is actually the second highest on the overall logs atm, pretty hard to beat that. Though I have to say that a lot of fights are catered to us I mean come on thok is just hilarious and you gotta love belts
    Last edited by blubneus; 2014-04-12 at 03:38 AM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by blubneus View Post
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...11100000000000 for people looking for the top 100 guys and to drool at their awesome deeps.
    Just play what you enjoy the most I myself play a hunter and I really like the dynamic and mobile style they provide with a very fast rotation and no downtime at all.

    Oh btw don't know who thought warriors were doing more dps than hunters but surv is actually the second highest on the overall logs atm, pretty hard to beat that. Though I have to say that a lot of fights are catered to us I mean come on thok is just hilarious and you gotta love belts
    Well that doesn't really mean anything. In fact it means as much as http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00100000000000

    [Set to 99th percentile]

    Going with that logic and the logic of many people in this thread fury warriors do more dps than Survival hunters by a slight amount.


    FYI I wouldn't take a single link from this thread including the one I linked as a source of "reliable information"

  14. #34
    Any information provided isn't relevant at all since dps is far more dependent on player skill than on the class itself. To be honest I would regard the top 100 player parses to be a pretty accurate estimation of the dps possibilities of the classes when played to their maximum not saying that that means that hunters are always better dps than warriors. Maybe taking all the parses and comparing those would give a more generalized view of the average bear.
    A lot comes down to the fight mechanics and like I said there are a couple of fight mechanics that are extremely beneficial to hunters when opposed to warriors, while they preform almost equally on the 'patchwork' fights. But this is the whole ranged vs melee drama discussion so yeah. I think that the more people you have in your flex raid the more the utility of warriors surpasses that of hunters since they have throw/banner/shout etc.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by blubneus View Post
    Any information provided isn't relevant at all since dps is far more dependent on player skill than on the class itself. To be honest I would regard the top 100 player parses to be a pretty accurate estimation of the dps possibilities of the classes when played to their maximum not saying that that means that hunters are always better dps than warriors.

    Top 100 parses are pretty much without exception people cheesing the living shit out of fights where its possible to do so.

    Anyway its flex for heavens sake, anything works.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Imhere View Post
    >Protectors
    >Norushen (to an extent)
    >Jug
    >Malk
    >Many others
    All basically patchwerk fights. Melee are on the boss 98%+ of the time performing their rotations. Don't know what you're exactly trying to accomplish here. Trying to justify and defend why your fury warrior gets beat in dps by hunters every fight? If that's the case I suggest you improve your performance because that simcraft link I showed is one of the most accurate sources on this kind of information. You saying "well that's not right, I'm right about what I say and that accurate source of information is wrong" doesn't really help your argument. Kind of makes you look like you have no idea what you're saying actually.
    >Protectors
    >Norushen
    >Patchwerk
    You 'avin a giggle, m8?

  17. #37
    Titan Wildtree's Avatar
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    Are you guys for real? Throwing logs around left and right for heroics?
    He is asking for Flex DPS....
    Generally, a class is only as good as the person can push the buttons and keys. Period...
    Those keys and buttons are usually pushed as good as the person likes to play the class.

    Now for Flex...
    Locks seem to be right up there on the top.
    Regarding Hunters, SV hunters to be exact, they are definitely only in the upper middle of the pack with single target, but they are king for AOE.
    Don't know much about warriors. Don't see them in the tops very often though.
    Still, fuck man.... Go play the class you wanna play the most. It is the end of the expansion.
    Most people don't give a fuck anymore anyway. The situation is as far that there are already heroic mode GDKP pugs on various realms.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  18. #38
    Regarding Hunters, SV hunters to be exact, they are definitely only in the upper middle of the pack with single target, but they are king for AOE.
    SV hunter AoE is really not that good compared to bladestorm, Arms warrior slam cleave + deep wounds , destro lock AoE, chain lightning spam and BM hunter mastery stacked beast cleave. Probably a few others I missed.

    Definitely not the king, think you're still stuck in early cata there. If anything they're still stuck in mid pack for aoe too.

  19. #39
    Hunter DPS are currently very above average. The thing is about hunters they're the most mobile class in the game so they'll realistically climb the meters relatively high when other classes need to move while they lose DPs hunters don't.

  20. #40
    Mechagnome Zenora's Avatar
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    Play what you like most, the rest of the group will just have to deal with it

    My main is a Hunter and it's nice dps, personally I don't like Warriors and Warlocks aren't as much fun as Hunters imo

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