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  1. #1

    The Backstab Situation

    hey there!

    since the new 6.0 Alpha notes are released, i think many of you got the news that Backstab's positional requirements are getting loosened a little, but not removed entirely.

    I had a pretty nice conversation about this over at twitter with some well-known representatives of our craft, @Fierydemise and @Haileaus.

    (for people which want to read the whole convo, it starts off here https://twitter.com/teh_Copperbolt/s...36355783376896)

    The Problem

    It offers no tangible reward for the player to offset the disadvantage.

    That is, in my opinion, the biggest problem with a limited ability like this. Backstab delivers exactly the most basic, core functionality you might expect: it costs energy, it deals direct damage, and builds a combo point. That's it. There is no interaction with any passive or active ability. I don't think that is enough to justify a binary drawback like attacking from behind: you either can cast BS, or you can't. There is no possible differentiation between the two. Which lead's to my second point-

    You often have no opportunity of bypassing this limitation on your own.

    There's three scenarios where BS often leads to frustration:
    - Encounter Design
    - Tank Movement
    - Aggro

    The first is the most apparent: when you have a Bossfight or mechanic which forces you to stay in front of the boss,
    you can't use your core ability.
    The second is situational: your Tank is a independent entity which doesn't care for you stabbing shennanigans. It moves out of bad, it tries to catch adds, etc. The boss usually follows those (sometimes quite spastic) movements.
    It even gets more exciting since there are TWO meatshields!
    The third one may sound weird (from a raiding PoV) but actually, you "face" mobs a whole lot of time.
    It's called soloing. Quests, old Raids, you name it.
    The proposed change for 6.0 only will alleviate most scenarios of the category "Tank goes wild".

    You have Hemo for Face Stabbing, right?

    There comes two problems with that idea:
    First, it removes the need to monitor Hemorrhage's bleed entirely: one of the stated goals of the Subtlety Spec is indeed micro-managing our debuffs.(can't find the specific tweet from celestalon atm) This contradiction is quite obvious, so lets not dwell on it.
    Even more problematic i think is the impact on our pacing when spamming Hemo. It's cheaper, which means it speeds up our rotation. So...you're first making me feel bad for standing in front (its suboptimal), then..i..what... - A ROLLERCOASTER OF EMOTIONS.
    (Warning: Exaggeration)
    It's not coherent with the Spec Design overall. (Fun Fact: The damage disparity between Hemo and BS has never been higher as in MoP)


    The Proposal

    Requirement vs. Advantage

    Let's take a look at Blackout Kick from Windwalker Monks. It differs from Backstab in the sense that it's a "spender" not a "builder", but it has two bonus effects affected by our position: in front, it heals the player. Hitting the back applies a short DoT for 20% additional damage. So basically, BoK achieves the same effect as BS, but doesn't so via an artificial barrier. This gives us three advantages:

    - The additional damage is exactly that: it can be fine-tuned, seperatly, from the base attack without impacting gameplay too much.
    - Perception: we (as humans) always interpret things more positively when we get rewarded for doing stuff right.
    BoK has no inherit drawback besides its Cost.
    - Modification. A barrier is pretty hard to modify, it's static.
    The 6.0 change illustrates this pretty well: the barrier will be smaller, but it still is one. Split components makes it easier to adapt,
    for example via a Glyph or talents, or rebalancing.

    System vs. Feel

    Mathematically, this may not be improvement over the old Hemo-Spam. From an Effciency PoV, we trade suboptimal for suboptimal, which may confuse a few people, but that's ok. That is not the point of this post. My focus is on gameplay and fun-factor.
    I feel that many players (and Blizzard included) like the base concept too much to let it go entirely, but I wish to reduce the hassle of a barrier affecting many situations ingame (making it unattractive in comparison) while maintaining the "fantasy".


    Suggestions?

    I would love to see some effects or ideas you may have for a new, better and faster OMNISTAB!!!!1

    Front: Increases your Movement-Speed by 30%. Doesn't stack. (For better Positioning, right? Maybe no front effect at all?
    Back: Triggers "Master of Subtlety" for 3-5 Seconds. (yeah, ofc that would need rebalancing. but hey, just roll with it for now!)

    From @TikariofET Front: Backstab renews the duration of Feint by X.

    no tl;dr. sowy.
    Last edited by Nouk; 2014-04-07 at 11:45 PM.

  2. #2
    They should make Backstab a proc which crits for a ton of damage and hemo the main combo builder which triggers it.

  3. #3
    Scarab Lord Nalira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bzhai View Post
    They should make Backstab a proc which crits for a ton of damage and hemo the main combo builder which triggers it.
    And then rename Subtlety to Assassination and have the same specc twice.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Knowing Celestalon, he both A) doesn't know and B) will nerf the spec until he figures it out while denying it ever happened.
    "Mastery Haste will fix it."

  4. #4
    Its just really odd what they are trying to do backstab and not really seeing a good reason for it. But this is what we know you will be able to backstab 270 degrees, they said they have a new tech that when a boss turns to cast something it will only look like he's turning but he won't be as far as counting as hitting from behind. So basically the only time backstab would be an issue would be stack in front of boss mechanics.

    While I don't see the point going to all this trouble rather than just making backstab work 360 it shouldn't be that bad if everything they say works out. And on hemo vs backstab when you need to use hemo the current wod setup is looking like this 145% hemo 180% backstab. While that's still 25% apart hemo doing 50% of its dmg through the dot which will now stack so can be spammed at no loss.

    I'm not someone that knows the right math for this but with hemo and backstab numbers at that and hemo's dot stacking would it even a dmg increase using backstab?
    Last edited by wow; 2014-04-08 at 12:31 AM.

  5. #5
    That was quite some interesting read. In fact, I find these reads quite a lot more engaging than buff/nerf discussions.

    While I understand the sentiment, I think positional requirements have been always pretty low on my hate list. But bear with me.

    WoW is very well known for positive reinforcement strategies. There's always some reward to everything you do; they virtually turn every down into an up: see for instance how the new level perks work: the abilities are balanced for end-game, yet we'll be getting sub-layered perks, so that a situation that nerfs your stats (leveling up and the combat rating system) seems like a buff.

    There are very few negative reinforcements; and those that are in place are really tame. Take death; they could stack up a buff the longer you stay alive, but instead they punish you with -10% armor and some idle time.

    As you guys pointed out, both flavors of reinforcement are equivalent number-wise, but they feel different. But there's a place for both: they both need to be in the game, hand in hand, or it risks falling apart. Case in point: the dailies at the start of mop; it was so much stuff to be achieved, so many rewards to be earned, so many wishes to be fulfilled, that we quickly started seeing the treadmill through the gaps of the skinnerbox. Anyhow, I digress, for more reading on that this article is excellent as an introduction.

    The point I'm trying to make is that I do believe there should be some kind of punishment somewhere. I'm not convinced backstab is where it should be, so I won't be defending it in that sense. But, to be honest, it's an issue that I always shrugged off, along with rogue-stacked CPs. But there's always merit in discussing these things in depth.

    I think the main aspect I don't like in current backstab is the simple fact that the spell doesn't connect. If I'm smashing a button, I want it to do something: I rather have it spend double energy, consume a cp, stab my face or w/e, instead of current zero noticeable feedback. If there's to be some punishment, I want it to be meanignful; perhaps mild, but noticeable in some other way than your-button-did-nothing. To be perfectly honest I would love if players discussed more often ways in which we could make punishment more engaging. My own -slightly absurd- fantasy: backstab from the front deals some %dmg to surrounding players.

    On the other side of the spectrum; if we're to design it as a positive reinforcement, I think I'd rather go with stuff that is perceived with means other than recount (read: I find the monk's bok very unappealing). Energy boosts, chance on extra cp, your proposed speed boost, increased crit chance, or increased crit damage -I kinda miss lethality-, all sound good to me.

    ps:
    I appreciate the effort they're making on the rpg argument: a backstab needs to be done from behind. But I never quite bought into it: most backstabs I've seen in movies are done facing front, hugging adversary, whispering something creepy to their ears and landing a stab to the neck.
    Last edited by nextormento; 2014-04-08 at 12:52 AM.

  6. #6
    I'm completely serious when i write and i expect the same from another reading especially replying.

    I would increase the base damage of backstab a lot because it already requires a lot of energy. the trade off is when you crit it take a large chunk thus elimination of stupid ideas because backstab was meant to deal heavy damage to targets in the first place. thanks
    Tell them, only that the lich king is dead and that the world of warcraft died with him.

    Truth a double edge sword: always both sides to truth, when combined separates good from evil.
    always good and evil there are.

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Rickmagnus's Avatar
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    Attacking from the back already has benefits, being able to do your normal damage shouldn't be one of them. Getting gimped more than other melee classes when you have to attack from the front is exactly why they are making this change, so don't get your hopes up for them just adding in some new reason to do it. Not getting dodged is enough of a reason for all the other melee, it should be for druids/rogues as well. I will admit having Hemo and Backstab is kinda redundant, but thats been the case since the bleed modifier got taken out anyway, now it's just more apparent.
    "I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't have to spend my whole life fearing hell, or fearing heaven even more. For whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse."
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  8. #8
    here is the idea were looking for

    mutilate is going to be used with other weapons not just daggers but more damage applied with daggers to keep the iconic weapon in balance with the greater damage of the sword.

    not every player who focus' to subtlety uses twin daggers other use one hand sword for main hand and a dagger offhand. the problem here is that the core ability backstab is only used with a dagger in main hand. solution backstab with offhand dagger to make the core ability available to one handed sword offhand dagger subtlety rogues.

    The discussion is about the positional requirement of backstab, not the weapon requirement. Please stay on topic. -Kael
    Last edited by Kael; 2014-04-08 at 06:30 PM.
    Tell them, only that the lich king is dead and that the world of warcraft died with him.

    Truth a double edge sword: always both sides to truth, when combined separates good from evil.
    always good and evil there are.

  9. #9
    Dreadlord DrArtorius's Avatar
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    If hemo's rolling bleed doesn't cap at a specific value or whatever, it's better to spam hemo than to backstab.
    Considering it doesn't cap, of course we'll still want to backstab when the mob won't be living for the entire duration of the bleed or when we need burst ASAP, but that's it.
    "Haste will fix it" - Ghostcrawler

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by DrArtorius View Post
    If hemo's rolling bleed doesn't cap at a specific value or whatever, it's better to spam hemo than to backstab.
    Considering it doesn't cap, of course we'll still want to backstab when the mob won't be living for the entire duration of the bleed or when we need burst ASAP, but that's it.
    Yeah, that actually would make it worse, see the part about hemo. Whatever they do, Backstab or Hemo will need a rework.
    But i agree, Hemo's bleed is too long and too cheap, so stacking it will be pretty strong (with todays damage-values).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by regularcustomer View Post
    I'm completely serious when i write and i expect the same from another reading especially replying.

    I would increase the base damage of backstab a lot because it already requires a lot of energy. the trade off is when you crit it take a large chunk thus elimination of stupid ideas because backstab was meant to deal heavy damage to targets in the first place. thanks
    Back in the day, BS had a ridicilously high crit chance to counter the drawback. That, in today's environment, wouldn't help any problem i listed before though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    That was quite some interesting read. In fact, I find these reads quite a lot more engaging than buff/nerf discussions. (...)
    Nice answer, this is the stuff im looking for in this thread! I agree with you that there is room for drawbacks:
    i think there's far too few actually, but an ability like Backstab is indeed the wrong choice here.
    Last edited by Nouk; 2014-04-08 at 11:03 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Rickmagnus View Post
    Attacking from the back already has benefits, being able to do your normal damage shouldn't be one of them.
    Exactly, this is the fundamental problem with Backstab, the core melee mechanics already punish you for attacking from the front and all melee dps are balanced around attacking from behind.
    All the directional requirement does is apply a double penalty for attacking from the front while providing no benefits for proper positioning, because giving Sub a bonus for just doing what everyone else is doing would make them overpowered.

  12. #12
    1. You should be attacking from the back in all situations that don't force you to attack the front for whatever random encounter mechanic does that (which most don't). Attacking from the back gives the the advantage of not being parried thus increasing your dps. Also, backstab does more damage than hemo so you gain more from being behind the thing with backstab rather than face stab with hemo.

    2. It's called BACKstab BACK BACK BACK BACK BACK BACK BACK. Until people start growing backs on their chests of course you're going to have to stand behind a person to use it. It's an iconic rogue ability that coincides with every RPG game ever made. The situation is if you're going to stab someone in the back YOU CAN'T DO IT FROM THE FRONT. I mean I guess this is straight up rocket science here but come on this is just absurd to be complaining about. Until people can alter the laws of physics backstab should be from behind the opponent simply because of what it is.

    Really they're probably not going to cut give bosses/players a hemi-sphere attack box which is black and white front or back but closer to having quadrants of left/right/back/front allowing people to backstab from 3/4's of the area around the mob/player and from a literal perspective actually backstabbing from the front just no the direct front. Should have 0 difficulties for any raid encounter out there and make PvP a lot easier.

    The only downside is that you still wont be able to solo play and backstab outside of a stun but there's dual spec for a reason and really just playing solo hemo is good enough anyways for any questing/leveling you'd be doing and if not just go assassination spec for that.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    (...)
    You maybe should reread the OP. (especially regarding Point 1).
    It's not about semantics about the abilities name (rename it, hurr), it's not about frontal attacks being suboptimal.
    BS may have been iconic back in the day, getting boosted quite alot by passives. Nowadays this isn't the case anymore. It's just an narrow, empty frame without any actual context.

    And yeah, Dual Spec has absolutly no place in this discussion, either.
    Last edited by Nouk; 2014-04-08 at 01:43 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    You maybe should reread the OP. (especially regarding Point 1).
    It's not about semantics about the abilities name (rename it, hurr), it's not about frontal attacks being suboptimal.
    BS may have been iconic back in the day, getting boosted quite alot by passives. Nowadays this isn't the case anymore. It's just an narrow, empty frame without any actual context.

    And yeah, Dual Spec has absolutley no place in this discussion, either.
    The advantage of backstab is being able to use it vs. not being able to use it. Sub has 2 damage dealing CP builders hemo and bs. Backstab does more damage than hemo yet both are interchangeable so the advantage is being able to use it.

    What the OP is asking for is simply taking away any positional requirements which is just stupid as the ability it self has a positional requirement built into the name or a buff to the ability itself.

    Backstab should have to attack from the back because that's what the entire ability is. What if you were a mage and wanted to cast a fireball and you started shooting out ice instead? Just doesn't work like that.

    As for a buff... well every spec is balanced around dps as a whole so any buff to backstab would come at a nerf to something else combined with blizz wanting to lower the burst potential of classes I don't see backstab getting any crazy buff.

    The whole thing with sub is you can either hemo from the front for lesser damage or backstab and hemo from the back for higher damage so there is a gain from attacking from behind in that you get to use the ability at all. Any changes are really unnecessary buffs that would just nerf sub in other ways.

    It already sounds like they're addressing most of the issues of sub for solo play. First with attacking from the sides even with random tank movement and boss encounter designs it should be so much easier to hit the boss with backstab that anything aside from directly in front should be easily attainable. And, with the change to ambush having no positional requirements that allows sub to finally use dance in solo play and makes that infinitely easier to use. As for solo play really hemo spam isn't that much different than backstab spam. Maybe if you're trying for some old raid boss that you barely have the dps for it might hurt but for questing and dailies and every day game play you should hardly see a difference.

    And yes btw dual spec has a say in this because dual spec exists allowing rogues to do different things in different ways and some which require different things to do them better. One spec might be vastly better for doing one thing and another spec might be vastly better for doing something else and that's ok. There will never be and should never be one perfect spec that's the best at every scenario. If you don't like soloing with the way backstab is it's super easy to solo as combat or assassination. Or not and just hemo spam it's up to you.

    In the end backstab should have a positional requirement and I hope that it always does. They've made it extremely easy to use with the addition to being able to hit from the side and in any sort of group environment or pvp it should be so much easier to use and almost unnoticeable. Does it make soloing inconvenient? Sure but if you want you could always pretend you're in vanilla again and play flippy flappy with the mob and only attacking during stuns going back and forth in front and behind the mob but personally I'd rather just hemo spam my quests away since that's faster and still have fun bursting mobs down with sub.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    The advantage of backstab is being able to use it vs. not being able to use it. Sub has 2 damage dealing CP builders hemo and bs. Backstab does more damage than hemo yet both are interchangeable so the advantage is being able to use it.
    Thats not an Advantage per definition. What you mean is a Trade-Off. And that trade-off is rather shallow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    What the OP is asking for is simply taking away any positional requirements which is just stupid as the ability it self has a positional requirement built into the name or a buff to the ability itself.
    That's not the case. Removing requirements with positional effects isn't "stupid", it's a design change. It wouldn't even be a buff necessarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Backstab should have to attack from the back because that's what the entire ability is. What if you were a mage and wanted to cast a fireball and you started shooting out ice instead? Just doesn't work like that.
    Again, then rename the ability. It's funny you mention another class: what if you were a mage and wanted to cast fireball and it would say "Must stand near a campfire."? Just wouldn't be that awesome, huh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    As for a buff... well every spec is balanced around dps as a whole so any buff to backstab would come at a nerf to something else combined with blizz wanting to lower the burst potential of classes I don't see backstab getting any crazy buff.
    Yeah, obviously they had tremendous problems balancing Blackout Kick for Windwalker Monks. It's not a buff, it's a design change. BS base damage can be lowered again for compensation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    The whole thing with sub is you can either hemo from the front for lesser damage or backstab and hemo from the back for higher damage so there is a gain from attacking from behind in that you get to use the ability at all. Any changes are really unnecessary buffs that would just nerf sub in other ways.
    Those gains can be of different nature, again, see Blackout Kick and read the OP completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    It already sounds like they're addressing most of the issues of sub for solo play. First with attacking from the sides even with random tank movement and boss encounter designs it should be so much easier to hit the boss with backstab that anything aside from directly in front should be easily attainable. And, with the change to ambush having no positional requirements that allows sub to finally use dance in solo play and makes that infinitely easier to use. As for solo play really hemo spam isn't that much different than backstab spam. Maybe if you're trying for some old raid boss that you barely have the dps for it might hurt but for questing and dailies and every day game play you should hardly see a difference.
    "Fun Fact: The damage disparity between Hemo and BS has never been higher as in MoP" - quoted from the OP.
    The difference is huge, especially now.
    The main issue however is, that it suddenly changes your rotation to be less involved - which Sub is all about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    And yes btw dual spec has a say in this because dual spec exists allowing rogues to do different things in different ways and some which require different things to do them better. One spec might be vastly better for doing one thing and another spec might be vastly better for doing something else and that's ok. There will never be and should never be one perfect spec that's the best at every scenario. If you don't like soloing with the way backstab is it's super easy to solo as combat or assassination. Or not and just hemo spam it's up to you.
    Did you play Sub in T14? Shuriken Toss was our strongest CP-Builder. Did suddenly the whole rogue world go crazy and lament the replacement of Backstab? Was Sub suddenly the strongest Rogue Spec ever, because we could contribute in any scenario? No.
    How come? BS is a friggin Standard Builder, with little impact on our Gameplay. It gives you Combo Points.
    Shuriken Toss could do that too, just better. The World of Warcraft didn't implode because of that.
    ST got nerfed for PvP reasons mostly, and because it's low energy cost made the rotation too easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    In the end backstab should have a positional requirement and I hope that it always does. They've made it extremely easy to use with the addition to being able to hit from the side and in any sort of group environment or pvp it should be so much easier to use and almost unnoticeable. Does it make soloing inconvenient? Sure but if you want you could always pretend you're in vanilla again and play flippy flappy with the mob and only attacking during stuns going back and forth in front and behind the mob but personally I'd rather just hemo spam my quests away since that's faster and still have fun bursting mobs down with sub.
    How is it extremely easy to use? Either you can use it or you can't. Sometimes you don't have a say in it, sometimes you do. Oh, and in Vanilla you had Ghostly Strike and Setup for face tanking and additional CP Generation. Hemo came late, but was far superior to Backstab in most cases. Sooo, no. I can't "pretend". All of that was removed or changed.
    Last edited by Nouk; 2014-04-08 at 03:13 PM.

  16. #16
    Wonderful post OP. Really interesting read.

    Backstab is such an iconic rogue ability yet so restrictive. They are moving to 20 man mythic so they can make encounters based around set raid parameters but here we are in 2014 still preventing one of the most iconic damaging abilities in the game being used in some fights. They want the freedom to design raid bosses without it having to be so open to any raid comp but a change to "behind your target only" abilities would give them to freedom to position the bosses more frequently?

    I don't pvp so I wont pretend I know how to balance it for pvp but from a pve point of view, I wouldn't mind them allowing you to use it from the front as well (screw the name of the ability tbh) but with a -5% crit chance or something. In any situation you want to use it behind the target anyway but a crit or very minor damage reduction when attacking from the front wouldn't punish you quite so much in situations you are forced to attack from the front.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    On the other side of the spectrum; if we're to design it as a positive reinforcement, I think I'd rather go with stuff that is perceived with means other than recount (read: I find the monk's bok very unappealing). Energy boosts, chance on extra cp, your proposed speed boost, increased crit chance, or increased crit damage -I kinda miss lethality-, all sound good to me.
    I agree, but the problem with something like an increased crit chance or crit damage is just a question of positioning. What if you're 44 degrees from front and center? It'd be hard to tell in the heat of battle without some clear indicator where front is (maybe have the front 90 degrees of the targeting reticle be at a smaller radius so you know EXACTLY where the back 270 degrees are).

    I do agree with your assessment that the button just doesn't do anything and that doesn't offer satisfying feedback of your positioning. Sometimes telling which way a creature is pointing IS a problem (I've been stealthily killed by Korven a couple times because it was hard for me to see that I was, in fact, standing in front of him in the middle of the melee pile of particles, bugs, and other players).

  18. #18
    Other issues in PvP:

    1. Pet aggro = literally impossible to Backstab a pet
    2. Totems, where is the back of a totem?
    3. Void Tendrils (and other misc targets) are impossible to Backstab if you're in them
    4. Bladestorming Warrior
    5. Fire Elemental, Zoo, and 18 super shiny spells are all covering my target, how am I supposed to know where the hell its back is (for example, boss in AV/IoC)

    Positional requirements on Backstab are simply not practical in today's game, and hasn't been for a while. I also agree with OP that they really make absolutely no sense other than "because the name".

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    How is it extremely easy to use? Either you can use it or you can't. Sometimes you don't have a say in it, sometimes you do. Oh, and in Vanilla you had Ghostly Strike and Setup for face tanking and additional CP Generation. Hemo came late, but was far superior to Backstab in most cases. Sooo, no. I can't "pretend". All of that was removed or changed.
    Gonna focus on this last part. I just don't get why they don't just rename it Ghost Strike and make it zero positional requirements, unless they really feel like it's difficult to balance it in PvP (in which case simply lower the damage in PvP, for once). Ghostrike existed, it's in our past.

    Of course, backstab could always hit in the back of a person if your daggers teleported through shadow into the back of your enemy. Then, it would be backstab no matter where you stood.

  20. #20
    Wouldn't it make a lot more sense if Backstab applied a debuff called Hemo, and you had a different main CP builder with no positional reqs (maybe you could call it Ghostly Strike ^_^) that had enough DPE that you only needed to use Backstab to refresh the Hemo dot rather than on CD?

    That way you'd only occasionally have to worry about Backstab's positional requirements and you could move in and out of the right position as the fight allowed, and the Hemo dot might have a reason to exist. And you could make Ghostly Strike different from the other spec's CP builders in some way to increase spec diversity.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MrElusive View Post
    Exactly, this is the fundamental problem with Backstab, the core melee mechanics already punish you for attacking from the front and all melee dps are balanced around attacking from behind.
    All the directional requirement does is apply a double penalty for attacking from the front while providing no benefits for proper positioning, because giving Sub a bonus for just doing what everyone else is doing would make them overpowered.
    I think the nucleus of the problem is, it's called BACKstab.

    And Backstab sounds like a cool very Roguey ability.

    So they're loathe to remove or change it.
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2014-04-09 at 07:53 AM.
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