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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinthoras View Post
    I find playing rogue quite enjoying.
    Muti with his slow-paced playstyle is just great for learning new encounter.
    Combat on the other hand is just super fast and has awesome cleave.
    Sub is still the best specc. It just feels perfect in a single target scenario.

    Backstab is maybe annoying but its also part of mastering your class. It promotes communication with your tanks and you need to know when the boss may turn around.
    With the extension coming, it will be so easy to hit backstab
    There's more to this game than just PvE/raiding.

    As pointed out earlier in this thread:
    1) Bad for leveling (can't backstab a mob unless it's stunned)
    2) Bad for soloing old content (can't stun bosses so you're stuck spamming Hemo)
    3) Can't (usually) Backstab totems (Shamans in PvP - especially Resto - take a glyph to give all their totems 5% of their life as hp, and some totems like Fire Elemental Totem have over 100k life).
    4) Can't Backstab Void Tendrils, so your dps is too low to actually break them before the root timer ends
    5) There are some mechanics in raiding that require you to stack in a certain spot often in front of a mob, so you can't Backstab it
    6) When boss mobs spin to target another player, you can't Backstab them
    7) You can't Backstab pets in PvP if they are focusing you unless you stun them (waste of CDs, not to mention they can dodge/parry/block your Kidney).
    8) Some encounters in Brawler's Guild are virtually impossible for Subt because the mob always is on you.
    9) Even if a mob is stunnable, after a couple stuns, there's 20 seconds of down time where you can't Backstab until the DR resets.
    10) How do you get "behind" a Warrior while they are Bladestorming?
    11) Spell effects and pets (like Fire Elemental) can completely engulf a mob to the point that it's literally impossible to tell which way they are facing
    12) There's a number of mobs in the game that have no obvious front or back, so the only way to find it is through trial and error
    13) In PvP, many classes have slows equal to or even stronger than our 50% from Crippling. Mouse turning is instantaneous, while movement is not, meaning a good player can make it virtually impossible to get behind them to Backstab them.
    14) Ever see a player lag and keep moving or spinning while stunned? Try backstabbing them.
    15) Lots more I didn't think to mention
    Last edited by dak1; 2014-04-18 at 06:19 PM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinthoras View Post
    Backstab is maybe annoying but its also part of mastering your class. It promotes communication with your tanks and you need to know when the boss may turn around.
    With the extension coming, it will be so easy to hit backstab
    No. Its a completely unfair hindrance that only 1 spec out of 34 will have to deal with. It doesn't promote communication with tanks at all. No tank (well occasional trolling and horrible lfr/pug tanks aside) turns a boss anymore than they need to because they don't want any of the dps to get needlessly parried. Any tank who does that is a terribad and needs to be replaced immediately because of how much raid dps he is costing you. There is nothing to communicate. He needs to do his job which often requires him moving... you just get screwed more than any class in the game because of it.

    Knowing when they will turn isn't a fix. Even if I know they will turn into me in 2 seconds, I still can't backstab it when it does, and if you have FW/trinkets up that can still be a big deal. There are also bosses like Sun where even though you know they're going to turn, you don't know which way. Then there are giant bosses that would take long enough to run through to get the back again that they would turn back around.

    There is no mastering involved. Its just something thrown at you that you can't do anything about which is why its retarded that only sub has to deal with it and no one else. If it was a common melee dps mechanic, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it. But getting to something like spirit kings and horribly screwing over 1 spec and nothing else is just bad design.

    It doesn't add anything interesting. It doesn't raise the skill floor / make sub harder to play. You already want to be behind the boss. Backstab just makes it needlessly punishing compared to other classes when you can't.

    The issue isn't "is requiring melee dps to be behind the target for optimal damage good design?" The issue is "can you justify screwing over a single spec significantly more when they can't hit from behind?" The former is reasonable, but the latter is not.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2014-04-18 at 07:28 PM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    There's more to this game than just PvE/raiding.

    As pointed out earlier in this thread:
    1) Bad for leveling (can't backstab a mob unless it's stunned)
    2) Bad for soloing old content (can't stun bosses so you're stuck spamming Hemo)
    3) Can't (usually) Backstab totems (Shamans in PvP - especially Resto - take a glyph to give all their totems 5% of their life as hp, and some totems like Fire Elemental Totem have over 100k life).
    4) Can't Backstab Void Tendrils, so your dps is too low to actually break them before the root timer ends
    5) There are some mechanics in raiding that require you to stack in a certain spot often in front of a mob, so you can't Backstab it
    6) When boss mobs spin to target another player, you can't Backstab them
    7) You can't Backstab pets in PvP if they are focusing you unless you stun them (waste of CDs, not to mention they can dodge/parry/block your Kidney).
    8) Some encounters in Brawler's Guild are virtually impossible for Subt because the mob always is on you.
    9) Even if a mob is stunnable, after a couple stuns, there's 20 seconds of down time where you can't Backstab until the DR resets.
    10) How do you get "behind" a Warrior while they are Bladestorming?
    11) Spell effects and pets (like Fire Elemental) can completely engulf a mob to the point that it's literally impossible to tell which way they are facing
    12) There's a number of mobs in the game that have no obvious front or back, so the only way to find it is through trial and error
    13) In PvP, many classes have slows equal to or even stronger than our 50% from Crippling. Mouse turning is instantaneous, while movement is not, meaning a good player can make it virtually impossible to get behind them to Backstab them.
    14) Ever see a player lag and keep moving or spinning while stunned? Try backstabbing them.
    15) Lots more I didn't think to mention
    Playing devil's advocate here. I have to point out also that I would be glad that playing would be much much easier with the suggested Backstab change (along with the already announced CP change).

    1: Leveling mobs are painfully easy to kill (or avoid, you're a rogue, if possible) with Hemo. Only possible thing I see that could possibly be "hard" are Timeless Isle type mobs. But hard in that sense is only time based.

    2: Old bosses should be easy enough to kill where using a "suboptimal" ability will make no difference.

    3: I don't PVP, so I'm not going to respond to this one. Someone else can.

    4: I don't PVP, so I'm not going to respond to this one. Someone else can.

    5: The mechanics in question are a valid point. But in this latest tier, there isn't one fight where stacking is stopping Rogues from backstabbing (unless your strat is centered around it and from most popular strats in this current tier it isn't an issue). If in the future there is a fight like that, it would be unfortunate but not game breaking as you could just as easily play Mutilate with those 2 daggers from Sub.

    6: They are apparently fixing this issue for WoD.

    7: I don't PVP, so I'm not going to respond to this one. Someone else can.

    8: Simple solution, play another spec (Mutilate with the 2 daggers).

    9: I don't PVP, so I'm not going to respond to this one. Someone else can.

    10: I don't PVP, so I'm not going to respond to this one. Someone else can. But why not just run away from a Bladestorming warrior?

    11: They are addressing spell effect issues, but to be honest I have yet to have a fight where this is an issue (but I am playing with Ultra graphics, so I don't know for sure).

    12: Not an issue if you can find out what their back is?

    13: I don't PVP, so I'm not going to respond to this one. Someone else can.

    14: I don't PVP, so I'm not going to respond to this one. Someone else can. But from my limited viewpoint, it isn't a very large issue.


    Again, to reiterate, I would be very happy if they take away the facing requirements to Backstab, because it would make playing a Rogue much much easier than it already is.
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  4. #104
    Latest patch notes only list druid changes under positional attacks. It's actually kind of comical. They didn't roll back the buff, did they?

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Latest patch notes only list druid changes under positional attacks. It's actually kind of comical. They didn't roll back the buff, did they?
    Druid: Ravage no longer requires the Druid to be behind the target.
    Druid: Shred no longer requires the Druid to be behind the target.
    Rogue: Ambush no longer requires the Rogue to be behind the target.
    Rogue (Subtlety): Backstab can now be used on either side of the target, in addition to behind the target.
    They still list Backstab as being the only gimped ability. They did add a note saying that Ravage's positional for Druids is also removed.

    I have a really bad feeling this is not going to be changed for WoD, and as emo as it might sound, I might end up using that as an excuse to take an extended break from the game. It just feels like the Subt spec in particular has been getting progressively worse since the end of Cata (with the super short-lived exception of Cloak and Daggers).
    Last edited by dak1; 2014-04-19 at 05:14 AM.

  6. #106
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrArtorius View Post
    If hemo's rolling bleed doesn't cap at a specific value or whatever, it's better to spam hemo than to backstab.
    Considering it doesn't cap, of course we'll still want to backstab when the mob won't be living for the entire duration of the bleed or when we need burst ASAP, but that's it.
    No, it won't. Hemo basically does 194% or something weapon damage next expansion, 30 energy cost. Backstab does 510%(!) weapon damage, 35 energy cost. The Hemo Dot will roll, which basically means that Hemo will always deal 194% weapon damage. Atm, Backstab is over TWICE as DPE efficient then Hemo is, which means that you a very LARGE amount less damage with Hemo then you do with Backstab.

    What this mostly means is that in soloing situations, Sub rogues will HAVE to use a stun to kill things at the same rate other classes kill things, and for things that can't be stunned? Respec, because it'll take you many times longer to kill it as sub then it would Assasination/Combat.

    Hrmm, an idea that would help with the soloing implications- Some sort of passive that whenever you take more then X number of consecutive attacks from a target (Maybe 3?), you can backstab it without a positional requirement.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Hrmm, an idea that would help with the soloing implications- Some sort of passive that whenever you take more then X number of consecutive attacks from a target (Maybe 3?), you can backstab it without a positional requirement.
    Or, like, get rid of the positional requirement. If the name bothers you, call it Ghostly Strike. Ghostly Strike is more iconic for Subt than Backstab is anyway.

    You're right about Backstab still being far better than Hemo though.

  8. #108
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Backstab currently is less damage than hemo once you include hemo's dot damage. The DoT is stacking in WoD which means you'll get full damage from hemo even if you spam it (assuming they don't rebalance hemo vs backstab). Either way, Backstab hasn't been a hard hitting ability since cata.
    Wrong, wrong, so much wrong. Hemo's damage is currently LESS then backstab's damage, including the full DoT. Taking a look at datamined tooltips for next expansion, Hemo does 217% weapon damage for 30 energy. Backstab, 510% weapon damage, 35 energy. My earlier calcs were mostly guesswork, so I was off a bit, but Backstab is still TWICE more DPE efficient then Hemo next expansion. If there aren't any changes to Backstab/Hemo, Sub will SUCK for soloing content compared to the other specs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    Or, like, get rid of the positional requirement. If the name bothers you, call it Ghostly Strike. Ghostly Strike is more iconic for Subt than Backstab is anyway.

    You're right about Backstab still being far better than Hemo though.
    Ghostly Strike has been gone for a long time, I doubt that it'll ever come back. If blizz gets rid of the positional requirement, they might as well remove either Backstab or Hemo entirely, and have one filler. One filler sub would probably be pretty boring.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    No, it won't. Hemo basically does 194% or something weapon damage next expansion, 30 energy cost. Backstab does 510%(!) weapon damage, 35 energy cost. The Hemo Dot will roll, which basically means that Hemo will always deal 194% weapon damage. Atm, Backstab is over TWICE as DPE efficient then Hemo is, which means that you a very LARGE amount less damage with Hemo then you do with Backstab.
    I hope you don't really think those are the correct numbers, as currently in the files we have 145% hemo, 510% backstab, and 325% ambush...

    That's pretty clearly an error on backstab unless they are trying out some really odd new play style for sub where ambush's only use is to put up fw then the spec is just backstab.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    If blizz gets rid of the positional requirement, they might as well remove either Backstab or Hemo entirely, and have one filler. One filler sub would probably be pretty boring.
    Like removing Mangle for Ferals?

    Sub does still have the most complex rotation in PvE for Rogues, even if you never used Hemo at all, so I don't see what would be "boring" about it. WW Monks only have 1 primary combo point builder too (Jab). Why does every single Rogue spec have to have 2, with one being used only situationally at best?

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    What this mostly means is that in soloing situations, Sub rogues will HAVE to use a stun to kill things at the same rate other classes kill things
    It still wont be the same rate, because other classes :
    - dont have to waste half of their resource bar to CC
    - dont have to waste GCDs on CC while leveling
    - dont have to circle strafe every mob
    - have reliable and spammable CCs outside of stealth
    Last edited by z4x; 2014-04-19 at 02:58 PM. Reason: typo

  12. #112
    Field Marshal Diamagon's Avatar
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    I read that many of you guys would rather have hemo and backstab merged. but theres a sort of pairing to these 2 combo builders. its basicly, if you're behind the mob, use backstab, if not, then use hemo. and I feel that if both are merged together then something is lost there. let me see if i can explain...

    combat has 2 main combo builders, revealing strike and sinister strike. you use revealing strike to keep a debuff on the target and then spam sinister strike. this to me sounds very similar to sub, ie: use hemo to keep a debuff on the target and then spam backstab. its basicly one "spammy" combo builder and another less used combo builder. this can also be seen in assassination with mutilate as the spammy one and dispatch as the less used one.

    so for example if hemo is removed and baked into backstab in some manner then its going to be only 1 combo builder that you are using. it would become a bigger spam button. because it would be the only button that builds combo points. having some variety is nice.

    I liked the idea that it would be a crit. reminds me of TF2 where the spy will insta kill when attacking with the knife from behind, but can still attack the face albeit the instakill. So how does this sound? backstab has a 100% chance to crit if used from behind the target. kinda like how lava burst and chaos bolt are 100% crit chance. but the thing about those spells is that they are not the "spammy" ones that are constantly used. those would probably be lightning bolt and incinerate. so having that constant stream of crit would undermine the feel of "yea big crit!". it would give you more control over honor among thieves thou...

    but going back on topic, I get really annoyed when i cant backstab. having a "sidestab" does sound good mainly for convenience. I'm all for that. If you guys want the BACKstab to be more meaningfull, have it do a garanteed crit if used from behind. you would still be able to use backstab from the front but it wont be as good as being behind the target. I know that a spell called fireball that shoots ice is just wrong, but i bet it would still hurt.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Diamagon View Post
    If you guys want the BACKstab to be more meaningfull, have it do a garanteed crit if used from behind. you would still be able to use backstab from the front but it wont be as good as being behind the target. I know that a spell called fireball that shoots ice is just wrong, but i bet it would still hurt.
    No, because the damage for Rogues would be tuned around the assumption that you're always behind the target, and thus we'd just have this new Backstab that functioned the same as Backstab and Hemo do now... we'd be doing less damage than we were tuned for and that every other class does because of a positional that in many cases we can't avoid.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Dropndestroyrr View Post
    1: Leveling mobs are painfully easy to kill (or avoid, you're a rogue, if possible) with Hemo. Only possible thing I see that could possibly be "hard" are Timeless Isle type mobs. But hard in that sense is only time based.
    Not really. The mobs in the last two MoP zones are super annoying. I had bis DS gear and I had to change out of sub because stuff was living through my opener and after that it was slow as crap. Assassination killed considerably faster. Now sure, that isn't "hard," but there is no reason for one spec to be considerably worse ST while leveling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dropndestroyrr View Post
    8: Simple solution, play another spec (Mutilate with the 2 daggers).
    This isn't a solution. Do you have any idea how badly for example enhance would rage and whine if blizz told them 'enhance isn't meant to have as easy of a time as ele on brawler's guild, just respec'? They would never let that fly for shamans, druids, etc because they want all specs to be viable in all areas of the game. There is absolutely no acceptable reason why one of ours should be excluded from that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamagon View Post
    so for example if hemo is removed and baked into backstab in some manner then its going to be only 1 combo builder that you are using. it would become a bigger spam button. because it would be the only button that builds combo points. having some variety is nice.
    No, what is boring is having all of our specs play similarly with the primary cp builder and situational cp builder. Sub already will be running 3 finishers on ST in WoD (snd, rupture, evis) compared to 2 for combat (snd, evis) and 2 for assassination (rupture, envenom). This means that even if you remove backstab (though really, just taking the positional off of it and making us keep up hemo for the bleed is fine imo), the core rotation for all 3 specs use the same number of abilities.

    Feral also only has 1 cp builder now, and some one else said the same is true for ww monks.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Not really. The mobs in the last two MoP zones are super annoying. I had bis DS gear and I had to change out of sub because stuff was living through my opener and after that it was slow as crap. Assassination killed considerably faster. Now sure, that isn't "hard," but there is no reason for one spec to be considerably worse ST while leveling.



    This isn't a solution. Do you have any idea how badly for example enhance would rage and whine if blizz told them 'enhance isn't meant to have as easy of a time as ele on brawler's guild, just respec'? They would never let that fly for shamans, druids, etc because they want all specs to be viable in all areas of the game. There is absolutely no acceptable reason why one of ours should be excluded from that.
    The beauty of it is that we are talking about rogues. Who don't have as much barrier between switching specs as Shamans do. We only have weapon issues and that is basically going away in WoD. With Brawler's guild, it is supposed to be challenging and challenging means playing a different spec at times (emphasis as a rogue).

    When I was leveling on my rogue with BiS DS gear, I played Hemo spam with legendary daggers. But I see your point in that one spec shouldn't be at a "disadvantage". Though to be fair, leveling is not even something to worry about. It would be an issue if with all appropriate gear/level you can't kill mobs to continue leveling. Which obviously isn't the case.
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  16. #116
    Mechagnome DrArtorius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Wrong, wrong, so much wrong. Hemo's damage is currently LESS then backstab's damage, including the full DoT. Taking a look at datamined tooltips for next expansion, Hemo does 217% weapon damage for 30 energy. Backstab, 510% weapon damage, 35 energy. My earlier calcs were mostly guesswork, so I was off a bit, but Backstab is still TWICE more DPE efficient then Hemo next expansion. If there aren't any changes to Backstab/Hemo, Sub will SUCK for soloing content compared to the other specs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Ghostly Strike has been gone for a long time, I doubt that it'll ever come back. If blizz gets rid of the positional requirement, they might as well remove either Backstab or Hemo entirely, and have one filler. One filler sub would probably be pretty boring.
    Do you really think that hemo will be less damage than backstab even with it having a stupid bleed? There is no reason to backstab be stronger in a 1/1 comparison.
    "Haste will fix it" - Ghostcrawler

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Dropndestroyrr View Post
    The beauty of it is that we are talking about rogues. Who don't have as much barrier between switching specs as Shamans do. We only have weapon issues and that is basically going away in WoD. With Brawler's guild, it is supposed to be challenging and challenging means playing a different spec at times (emphasis as a rogue).

    When I was leveling on my rogue with BiS DS gear, I played Hemo spam with legendary daggers. But I see your point in that one spec shouldn't be at a "disadvantage". Though to be fair, leveling is not even something to worry about. It would be an issue if with all appropriate gear/level you can't kill mobs to continue leveling. Which obviously isn't the case.
    Yeah, its suppose to be challenging and require a different spec at times which is why its reasonable to ask an enhance to play ele right? Theres no reason it has to be doable with enhance if there is another spec that can right? And in WoD it will just be weapons and trinkets for shaman also, but we both know there would still be a shit storm if blizzard said that to enhance shaman. Our weapon issues aren't going away in WoD. You still need a dagger to backstab. They said non daggers will intentionally kept inferior for assassination so I seriously doubt you'd ever see a gain switching to assassination unless you used a dagger.

    The double standard is just bull shit. It is not acceptable for one of our specs to just be deemed 'second class' when it isn't also acceptable for that to happen to other classes in the game.

    Rogues kinda blow at leveling anyway compared to most other classes with melee specs. Making it even worse if you want to play sub is just stupid. Yes, you can do it if you put more effort and time into it... I think requiring considerably more effort and time for the same result is something to worry about no matter what facet of the game we're talking about.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2014-04-20 at 07:32 PM.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Yeah, its suppose to be challenging and require a different spec at times which is why its reasonable to ask an enhance to play ele right? Theres no reason it has to be doable with enhance if there is another spec that can right? And in WoD it will just be weapons and trinkets for shaman also, but we both know there would still be a shit storm if blizzard said that to enhance shaman. Our weapon issues aren't going away in WoD. You still need a dagger to backstab. They said non daggers will intentionally kept inferior for assassination so I seriously doubt you'd ever see a gain switching to assassination unless you used a dagger.

    The double standard is just bull shit. It is not acceptable for one of our specs to just be deemed 'second class' when it isn't also acceptable for that to happen to other classes in the game.

    Rogues kinda blow at leveling anyway compared to most other classes with melee specs. Making it even worse if you want to play sub is just stupid. Yes, you can do it if you put more effort and time into it... I think requiring considerably more effort and time for the same result is something to worry about no matter what facet of the game we're talking about.
    I'm going to again point out that we aren't talking about Shamans. We are different classes with different strengths and weaknesses regarding changing specs. All 3 of our specs are similar, so there is no parallel with Enh -> Ele.

    I don't see Subtlety as a "second class". Sub isn't weak at all and having played Sub for every fight on heroic, this magical Backstab issue is almost a non-issue and with the new change the cases of which you use a "sub-optimal" builder instead of Backstab will be fewer and fewer.

    With regard to people not willing to change specs (AS A ROGUE), I guess it is a different point of view. I view being able and willing to play every spec of Rogues as a requirement to being a good rogue. So not willing to play another spec is just disappointing. Though I have never had a point in time where I couldn't play another spec because weapons, trinkets, etc.

    I don't really have anything else to say about this, so I'm going to leave you guys to it. Make rogues easier pls.
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  19. #119
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
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    Backstab isn't the problem. Ambush is.

  20. #120
    A the simpleist fix is just to :

    - Allow backstab from the front.
    - Remove Hemo.
    - Apply a bonus when attacking from behind.

    Bonus could include
    - Increased Damage
    - Increased Crit chance
    - Reduced energy cost

    Backstab can still mean "backstab" in the metaphorical sense. It doesn't make sense to limit gameplay based on lore or name alone.

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