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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    Appreciate the judgmental attitudes toward my UI. There were very few sprites over the actual battle, so my UI had effectively no impact there... as for the rest of the UI... it works for me. If you prefer something different, great, use what works for you. My focus is keeping track of DRs, juggling debuffs/buffs, and tracking things like Subterfuge, trinket procs, enemy trinkets/racials, and offensive/defensive CDs. It seems to work for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    That is a hit and miss. His UI isn't good by any stretch, but UI isn't able to resolve any problems with that position in that situation.
    Maybe it is a misunderstanding of "UI", but I meant all the unnecessary elements make it hard to see what is going on. Example: Nameplates being the biggest culprit. (Also the camera angle doesn't really help either)

    In all the fights I have done in 25m, I have had 0 issues with not being able to see targets. (On ultra w/ Shadows) :\
    Dropndestroy | i7-3770k 4.6Ghz | EVGA GTX 680 SC Signature+ SLI | ASUS Maximus V Formula | G.Skill 16gb 2400 | AX850

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Dropndestroyrr View Post
    Maybe it is a misunderstanding of "UI", but I meant all the unnecessary elements make it hard to see what is going on. Example: Nameplates being the biggest culprit. (Also the camera angle doesn't really help either)

    In all the fights I have done in 25m, I have had 0 issues with not being able to see targets. (On ultra w/ Shadows) :\
    Perhaps you're unaware, but in PvP, nameplates for enemies are pretty much mandatory. They give you x-ray vision.
    Even without the green friendly names (no health bars), it's still a mess.

    And that's a 40 man BG squished into a microscopic little room with an end boss about the same size as everyone else. There's no giant dragon with a hitbox with an 80 yard radius and ranged and melee standing in different places.
    Last edited by dak1; 2014-04-26 at 12:30 AM.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by dak1 View Post
    Perhaps you're unaware, but in PvP, nameplates for enemies are pretty much mandatory. They give you x-ray vision.
    Even without the green friendly names (no health bars), it's still a mess.

    And that's a 40 man BG squished into a microscopic little room with an end boss about the same size as everyone else. There's no giant dragon with a hitbox with an 80 yard radius and ranged and melee standing in different places.
    Friendly Nameplates. But this is getting OT.
    Dropndestroy | i7-3770k 4.6Ghz | EVGA GTX 680 SC Signature+ SLI | ASUS Maximus V Formula | G.Skill 16gb 2400 | AX850

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Dropndestroyrr View Post
    Friendly Nameplates. But this is getting OT.
    Indeed. Let's top it here, unless someone thinks there's a relevant UI response to how 40+ people crowded on a single target can be remedied at current.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellash View Post
    Backstab is going to be useable from the side.
    It's a very iconic ability and unless Blizzard manages to dynamically change its name when you're in front of a target to "Facestab", I don't see the point in changing it.
    Pretty narrow veiwpoint if you think a rogue wouldn't be able to backstab something when in front of it.
    I ain't even talking about reach arounds we are talking about a class they can not only teleport or move really fast (hard to tell really) but also as seen in the new lvl 100 talents create shadow ghost clones (fucking finally blizzard talkabout obvious untapped potential)
    Now your wondering 'if we are now useing a shadow ghost clone to stab people isn't backstab a bit of a shit name?' well you would be right thats why it should be renamed ghostly strike A far more iconic ability than backstab ever was for a sub rogue.

  6. #146
    They can't use ghostly strike because its going to be the new global tank passive. Taking our riposte alone wasn't good enough.

  7. #147
    So in PvP, is it now possible to be able to Backstab somebody and be dodged or parried?
    Not if you stay behind the target, as you have been. (Celestalon)

    What a shit answer, instead of dancing around it he should have just said yes.
    Good luck staying behind a target 100% of the time.

  8. #148
    Eh, we've been doing it for quite a few years, we'll be okay, Rogue isn't the only class that needs to change spec to solo things.
    One cannot simply quit wow his way into Mordor.

  9. #149
    Basically, make hemo hit harder than it does now and make hemo backstab when you're behind the target. Then everyone's happy.

    Really we're just clinging to nostalgia and lore, but for gameplay/design reasons:

    - Take hemo and give a damage bonus when attacking from behind
    - Add backstab sound and animation and damage increase when attacking from behind, then call it backstab.

    Done.

    No facestab complaints, no more being screwed over when infront.

    Everyone's happy then, except the elitists who want to needlessly complicate everything and argue how 2 buttons instead of 1 requires more skill.

    It would be a truely unique ability, 2 animations/sounds within 1 skill. I really don't see what the problem with this solution is. You still get your backstab flavour, the logicalness of no facestab, without the interruption or being screwed over when not behind.

    I mean a rogue wouldn't be like "oh I can't reach his back, guess i'll sit here and do nothing" he'd be like "ok well it's not ideal, but I'll improvise as best as I can" and at least do something.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Flexed View Post
    What a shit answer, instead of dancing around it he should have just said yes.
    Good luck staying behind a target 100% of the time.
    Yea, that response was a bit snippy, but twitter lets the devs be a bit sarcastic. I'd rather the occasional dick statement than everything go through some PR thing or be processed. Better the raw devs than not, even if none of them are as fast and clever as GC, most of them are close. Celestalon and Holinka in particular are pretty witty.

    What he's pointing out is simple: compared to live, this is a buff.


    It does miss one of the important things though: right now, backstab is actually CODED not to allow dodge/parry/block. We know this, because there was a half patch after mutilate became omnidirectional where I think it couldn't be blocked or something- presumably backstab still uses this code. So on live, you often have a situation where you run back and forth across a target spamming 4, and eventually backstab fires. When it does, there's no dodge/parry/block. Where you were actually standing relative to the enemy doesn't matter- it finally hit that random spot, only loosely related to his actual back, that results in the move lighting up.

    In the future, we are totally losing that. In fact, if you "do what you do on live", you will absolutely see dodges, parries, and blocks, and before you didn't.


    I still view it as a buff though- the times when you can't stab the enemy are way worse than a combat evade, which you can fix next global.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And for what it is worth, I would really love to see riposte and ghostly strike return. Sadly, I don't see any MMO that replicates the "choose a strike" aspect of the "clever rogue" build from back in the day. Maybe Rift, it's not like I can read all their talent trees lol :P

    The biggest beef I have with the rogue devs is when they went through and deleted ghostly strike and riposte, then added dispatch and revealing strike. This isn't just a switch-out- previously, your solo spec could have up to four strikes that matter (hemo/ghostly/backstab/riposte) or as few as one you cared about (mutilate). The utility strikes were wicked fucking cool, and reached their pinnacle in Lich King- a big part of why that expac is my favorite is that the classes had complex and interesting talent trees that let you do badass stuff.

    But after their change, every rogue spec got Combo Builder A and Combo Builder B. So in literally all of my specs, 2 is hemo/sinister/mutilate, and 4 is backstab/revealing/dispatch. Then they are like rogues seem really homogenized.

    Well no shit Sherlock! You deleted all the things that distinguished pvp from pve, solo from group, and really one spec from another. We could easily have one spec with one builder, another with two, and a final one with three. Likewise, we could have greater variance in finishers. We could definitely use a move with a cooldown that is worth using on cooldown.

  11. #151
    Agreed, well either way they do need to do something to spice up the playstyle, hope the beta testers have good suggestions.

    Blizzard can't just rest on their laurels and say "well the rogue class is the most polished so we won't bother changing it up very much".

  12. #152
    I'd roll Hemo, backstab and Ambush in to one button. If attacking from the front, it's Hemorrhage, from the back or sides it's a back stab, from stealth or pseudo stealth it does an Ambush. Dps of Hemo and Backstab should be the same but backstab should be burstier and hemo DOT.

  13. #153
    It's no gain to roll ambush and backstab into one button. This can be macroed on live, and is mostly handled in the default UI by putting them both on the same button. No one backstabs during dance or stealth, so ambush is already there. No gain.

    Putting hemo into it doesn't change a lot except that you can mean to get backstab but actually get hemo, and then you'd also have to swing in front of bosses to cast the dot.

    It's a bad design. If they wanted us to have one button, they'd just have it hit harder from the back than the front, and then give our rotation an extra finisher or something.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by broods View Post
    I'd roll Hemo, backstab and Ambush in to one button. If attacking from the front, it's Hemorrhage, from the back or sides it's a back stab, from stealth or pseudo stealth it does an Ambush. Dps of Hemo and Backstab should be the same but backstab should be burstier and hemo DOT.
    The real issue has nothing to do with needing a second or third button. You can put them on one button, but if sub is balanced assuming you can backstab, then it will be garbage when you can't. It is the only spec out of 34 specs that has that issue now.

    And why would you want to essentially remove a mechanic from sub anyway? The builder that leaves a dot and the builder that hits harder may be pretty much identical to RvS and SS, but it does at least offer something extra to do. The issue is the builder that is the only attack in the entire god damn game that has to be used from 'behind'. Unless as Varian mentioned, you're suggesting we need to run in front of the boss to put up the hemo bleed since you'd have us just auto use hemo instead if we're not behind... thats really stupid too...
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2014-04-30 at 03:28 AM.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdeh View Post
    A the simpleist fix is just to :

    - Allow backstab from the front.
    - Remove Hemo.
    What I dislike about this is that it reduces sub to a 1-builder rotation which is pretty boring. I'm sure other options could be explored.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    It's no gain to roll ambush and backstab into one button. This can be macroed on live, and is mostly handled in the default UI by putting them both on the same button. No one backstabs during dance or stealth, so ambush is already there. No gain.
    Maybe they should make eviscerate and SnD all part of that button too.

    Why do you need to macro anything? Ambush is on the stealth bar.

    IMO they either need to give backstab and hemo separate identities or, if they do scrap one, we need something interesting to replace it.

    I'd be happy with backstab more or less as it is but with it no longer as the primary builder. The hemo dot is bizarre when using hemo as a main builder too.
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  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    What I dislike about this is that it reduces sub to a 1-builder rotation which is pretty boring. I'm sure other options could be explored.
    So I have Backstab bound to 'W' and Hemo bound to 'S'. So you're saying that:
    S-W-W-W-W-Evis-W-W-W-S-W-Evis-W-W-W-W-W-Evis
    is a lot more fun than:
    W-W-W-W-W-Evis-W-W-W-W-W-Evis-W-W-W-W-W-Evis

    Really, I don't see much difference.

    I think the complexity in Subt's rotation for PvE comes from keeping Slice and Dice, and SV up, monitoring Find Weakness, pooling energy at the end of Subterfuge or Shadow Dance if necessary to try to keep Find Weakness up for the longest amount of time possible, deciding whether or not to Vanish or Prep+Vanish, and pooling energy pre-Shadow Dance/Vanish to dumb the most energy with Find Weakness up as possible. That seems more interesting (and more complex than Combat/Mut) than hitting Hemo instead of Backstab a couple times a minute.

  17. #157
    They might as well just make a passive.

    "Premeditation : Recuperate and Slice and Dice no longer consume combo points when used from stealth". But they don't want to, they stopped HAT procing from not being in combat/being in stealth for that reason.

    In my opinion, it's an intended nerf. They don't want us being able to heal up to full with recuperate whilst in stealth.

    Now it'll be nothing more now than a botched initiative talent we used to have, which many people skipped over due to capping combo points and low overall reward.


    There's so many outdate mechanics for rogues nowadays, slice and dice/recuperate are holding us back. I see why they're there, I can't suggest an alternative yet, but they are bloody annoying even if not everyone would be happy to see them gone.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    What I dislike about this is that it reduces sub to a 1-builder rotation which is pretty boring. I'm sure other options could be explored.
    Removing a mechanic and not adding one would make the spec more boring, but what if say they tied energetic recovery to recup again and we juggled an extra finisher instead (or some new finisher would work too)? All our second builder currently adds is (1) a builder that can hit from the front and (2) a buff/debuff timer to manage. The first reason is stupid anyway. If they give us another timer, I don't really feel like it has to be from a builder. In fact making it not a builder would make sub less similar to combat as currently RvS and hemo are both just something you hit for the debuff while you spam ss/bs (though I realize you can use RvS to time your BG in WoD).

  19. #159
    Looks like Celestalon still finds Backstab too "iconic" to change it. Our effort is futile, it seems.

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