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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by britishbubba View Post
    And for EH capping you off in health? FR, EF, DS all say hi. Monks aren't unique in that aspect.
    Monks are unique in that aspect. Your lack of knowledge is showing. DS and EF require resources that aren't as easy to replenish. A properly played monk always has the energy to expel harm and get out of jail, a DK is not always going to be able to DS 3x in a row when he needs too, nor is a pally going to be able to spam EF.

    As far as gift of the ox not being useful on the fight you just proved you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Anytime I get to medium to high stacks I have a mountain of orbs to both sides of me, if you're wasting them before you actually need them that's your lack of skill not a class problem

    Between EH and GOTO no tank has the reliable spike healing instants of a Brewmaste, that is a fact. Your point about dps and zen med is worthless because even if a Monk spends 12s of the fight in zen med between whirling corruptions, or soaking annihilates a DK or Pally still can't do more damage then them, and if a monk doesn't they still won't out dps a warrior. Your point made 0 sense for actually ranking tanks on the fight.

    Plain and simple if you think 1 tanking Garrosh on a Monk is dangerous it's a l2p issue. Monks are the clear best choice after Warriors, and Warriors are only the best because they are the highest dps along with providing better tools in the transitions, not because they can survive the actual 1 tank part of the fight easier.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Monks are unique in that aspect. Your lack of knowledge is showing. DS and EF require resources that aren't as easy to replenish. A properly played monk always has the energy to expel harm and get out of jail, a DK is not always going to be able to DS 3x in a row when he needs too, nor is a pally going to be able to spam EF.
    Monks are limited by energy regen, just like the rest of those tanks are limited by their resources, regardless of if you pool energy (which you do) you still can only hit it so often. Each of the other specs if played optimally pool their resources to get the most out of them. YOUR lack of knowledge is showing. Monks aren't unique in this, each tank can pool resources for burst survavability.

    Let alone that you're discounting the entire part that EF has TICKING healing and SoI is ALWAYS healing the paladin.

    As far as gift of the ox not being useful on the fight you just proved you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Anytime I get to medium to high stacks I have a mountain of orbs to both sides of me, if you're wasting them before you actually need them that's your lack of skill not a class problem
    I literally never said it wasn't useful.

    "GoTOx is also kinda meh on garrosh assuming you're doing the strat where you don't kill weapons since you will never actually build up any sizable amount of orbs as you have to move to a new location every 20 seconds."

    That's what I said. It's not like juggernaut where you have a shit ton of them just sitting there for whenever. They are spread out. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

    Between EH and GOTO no tank has the reliable spike healing instants of a Brewmaste, that is a fact.
    GOTO runs out just like every other tank runs out of resources.

    Your point about dps and zen med is worthless because even if a Monk spends 12s of the fight in zen med between whirling corruptions, or soaking annihilates a DK or Pally still can't do more damage then them, and if a monk doesn't they still won't out dps a warrior. Your point made 0 sense for actually ranking tanks on the fight.
    That explains why monk tanks dominate the dps ranks for this fight right? oh wait

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings...ic=dps&size=10

    It's almost like monk tanks haven't dominated other tanks in DPS outside of AoE ever since the 15% dmg nerf.

    Plain and simple if you think 1 tanking Garrosh on a Monk is dangerous it's a l2p issue.
    It's dangerous as literally any tank. Despair weapon hits incredibly hard beyond 10 stacks, it's not "safe" on any tank.

    Monks are the clear best choice after Warriors, and Warriors are only the best because they are the highest dps along with providing better tools in the transitions, not because they can survive the actual 1 tank part of the fight easier.
    That explains why literally every other tank spec has significantly higher representation on the fight when it comes to guilds that 1 tank. The only thing that matters on the fight in terms of 1 tanking is if they can live the magic damage as the magic damage is the only part that is life threatening. Monks have the lowest EH when it comes to magic. That's a fact. Stop trying to act like I'm saying it's not doable, I clearly know it is. It's definitely not the easiest, nor the best class to solo tank the fight on due to their innately lower healthpool.

    The part that paladin/warrior both bring raid CDs (paladin Lights hammer counting as one) just takes them even farther ahead.

    Literally each of your posts in this thread has been you quoting what someone said, then responding to a completely fabricated set of statements that you seem to think they said. Each person that's voiced anything negative about a monk solo tank has been about the same thing... Monk's being vunerable to ticking magic damage. That's because out of all the tanks in the games MONKS HAVE THE LOWEST HEALTHPOOL. They deal with magic damage the worst and it's going to make people feel uncomftable when they hit a whirl with 13 stacks and get chunked to shit.

    No one has said you can't solo tank as a monk. There's logs proving that you can, it doesn't make it a desired experience, nor does it make them the best to tank it. Other tanks bring better raid utility through raid CDs, and since no tank just can't outright survive the fight, there's little reason to take a monk over another tank that can bring some form of raid utility that isn't statue guards.
    Last edited by britishbubba; 2014-04-09 at 05:41 AM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by britishbubba View Post
    Monks are limited by energy regen, just like the rest of those tanks are limited by their resources, regardless of if you pool energy (which you do) you still can only hit it so often. Each of the other specs if played optimally pool their resources to get the most out of them. YOUR lack of knowledge is showing. Monks aren't unique in this, each tank can pool resources for burst survavability.
    Brewmaster play above 40 energy and leave that in reserve for EH.

    Mastery is useless for this fight as one swing won't kill you and EH plus heals from the healers will get you topped up before the next one. I'd go Crit/Haste and have healing orbs up at all times. There are strats out there where you don't have to move Garrosh at all or very rarely. Coordinate externals for the high stack parts and they're no dangerous than low stacks.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Khorm View Post
    Brewmaster play above 40 energy and leave that in reserve for EH.
    I'm aware, I play a brewmaster. You still can only EH so often. You have to put 40 energy towards KS every 8 second cycle, or you'll fall behind on shuffle which means you're limited to however many EHs you get with the rest of that energy. If you activate desprete measures you will not get more than 3 EH in a row before you bottom out on energy, and that's if you're pooling higher than 40. Most brewmasters sit at *maybe* 6k haste. You're getting ~14.5 energy per second there with ascension. Every 8 seconds you have 116 energy then to work with (bump it up to 120 for numbers sake) which gives you 80 energy to use without pushing your KS back at all.

    Wow, two whole EH every 8 seconds. Sure is way more spammy than every other tank. Oh wait, that's about the same cycle as every other tank.

    which brings us back to what I said originally. Each tank can pool resources for more burst survivability. Bears can pool rage for more FR. DKs can pool runes/Blood Tap for more death strikes, paladins can pool above 3 HP for more EF, warriors can pool rage for more Sbar. It's not something unique to monks.

    There are strats out there where you don't have to move Garrosh at all or very rarely.
    Unless you're sending a ranged group out to bait the weapon throw and leaving garrosh in one place (which is more of a 25m strat than a 10m and this thread is about 10m) you're moving for each weapon. Your GOTO will be in multiple locations, which while it doesn't make them useless, it certainly does limit the raw amount of healing you can get from them.

    Mastery is useless for this fight as one swing won't kill you and EH plus heals from the healers will get you topped up before the next one.
    If you go into garrosh with sub 10k mastery raid buffed, you're gunna be in some pain. One swing won't kill you, but an unmitigated swing + 10 stack weapon tick will. So I would hardly call mastery "useless". The part that I didn't even mention mastery in any of my posts makes me wonder why you're mentioning it in the first place.

    Coordinate externals for the high stack parts and they're no dangerous than low stacks.
    So, something you'd do on literally every other tank, except every other tank a higher EH when it comes to magic damage, and in the case of paladin warrior and druid, just has straight up better (and more) personal CDs for whirls.

    Like... what exactly was the point of your post?
    Last edited by britishbubba; 2014-04-09 at 07:35 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by britishbubba View Post
    Unless you're sending a ranged group out to bait the weapon throw and leaving garrosh in one place (which is more of a 25m strat than a 10m and this thread is about 10m) you're moving for each weapon. Your GOTO will be in multiple locations, which while it doesn't make them useless, it certainly does limit the raw amount of healing you can get from them.


    So, something you'd do on literally every other tank, except every other tank a higher EH when it comes to magic damage, and in the case of paladin warrior and druid, just has straight up better (and more) personal CDs for whirls.

    Like... what exactly was the point of your post?
    Two comments:
    1: The "send bait out"-tactic is very much used in 10 man, and personally, I've seen far more 10 mans make use of it than 25 man. Heck, our 10 man alt raid used a bait tactic because 2 of the 3 people moving can be healers (AKA zero dps loss in a non-healing intensive phase), while our 25 man tactic used "entire group movement".
    2: You forgot to include DKs in the Better/More personal cds (and the fact that DS healing combats the magic dmg ticks ).

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Are you serious? I mean, for real? I know warriors are OP, and they are the clear number 1 choise, but despite that, DK's are *incredible* for solo tanking garrosh. Few things you might not be considering -
    DK's have more cooldowns to match the stacks, along with anti magic shell for every whirl+stack explosion, essentially absorbing the "Big hit" and the whirl at the same time.
    DK's can keep themselves alive for longer periods of time, allowing healers etc to deal with their adds rather than focus on the tank.
    DK's survivability (death strike) scales with the damage intake - but it doesn't work on magic damage. What this means is that you get an *extremely* smooth damage curve. You'll sit at 500K vengeance, having your DS basicly shield you for more than half your healthpool and heal you up, counteracting all the physical "spike" hits - leaving all the damage intake from the DoT that's constantly ticking.

    As for DPS, http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...pe=damage-done this was our second kill, and our first solo-tanked kill (prot warr was absent so we had to improvise).
    Few things you might want to consider when looking at the log and comparing it to those above me -
    We use the AFK terrace tactic (1 minute of zero dmg).
    I don't stand in annihilates (no reason to stress the healers when we end up waiting later on anyway).
    I don't "whore vengeance" in any way, really.
    This, we started out solo tanking with our paly but he had to go on vacation so we got our dk in. The dmg is very smooth as long as blood shield is up, however he got almost killed in gcds if it feel off, saying this is not close to the best dk tank out there. The better thing for us with the paladin was only that he could use Hand of Purify before every whirling or if the dot was getting out of hand leaving him taking absolutly no dmg from the dot. Still i believe it was easier with the Deathknight, that being said with the paladin being on a different skill level
    The Art of Losing - Danish guild at 14/14hc looking for 5 more dps for 25man roster. Other nordic people are welcome if being exactly what we are looking for.

  7. #27
    Why in God's name would you use hand of purity? DP is 40% less magic damage on a 30 sec CD. If you have the 2 set bonus once DP expires it plases a 10 sec HoT on you for 75% of the damage you took while it was up.
    It's a given how many stacks you will get so you can plan your CD's accordingly.

    Anyway, it seems the bottom line here is a competent tank can solo tank it.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by britishbubba View Post
    I'm aware, I play a brewmaster. You still can only EH so often. You have to put 40 energy towards KS every 8 second cycle, or you'll fall behind on shuffle which means you're limited to however many EHs you get with the rest of that energy. If you activate desprete measures you will not get more than 3 EH in a row before you bottom out on energy, and that's if you're pooling higher than 40. Most brewmasters sit at *maybe* 6k haste. You're getting ~14.5 energy per second there with ascension. Every 8 seconds you have 116 energy then to work with (bump it up to 120 for numbers sake) which gives you 80 energy to use without pushing your KS back at all.

    Wow, two whole EH every 8 seconds. Sure is way more spammy than every other tank. Oh wait, that's about the same cycle as every other tank.

    which brings us back to what I said originally. Each tank can pool resources for more burst survivability. Bears can pool rage for more FR. DKs can pool runes/Blood Tap for more death strikes, paladins can pool above 3 HP for more EF, warriors can pool rage for more Sbar. It's not something unique to monks.

    Unless you're sending a ranged group out to bait the weapon throw and leaving garrosh in one place (which is more of a 25m strat than a 10m and this thread is about 10m) you're moving for each weapon. Your GOTO will be in multiple locations, which while it doesn't make them useless, it certainly does limit the raw amount of healing you can get from them.

    If you go into garrosh with sub 10k mastery raid buffed, you're gunna be in some pain. One swing won't kill you, but an unmitigated swing + 10 stack weapon tick will. So I would hardly call mastery "useless". The part that I didn't even mention mastery in any of my posts makes me wonder why you're mentioning it in the first place.

    So, something you'd do on literally every other tank, except every other tank a higher EH when it comes to magic damage, and in the case of paladin warrior and druid, just has straight up better (and more) personal CDs for whirls.

    Like... what exactly was the point of your post?
    I quoted you and put a response underneath then started a new paragraph with my own thoughts. You are so defensive in this thread because you are getting slammed like a $2 prostitute. What's the point of anyone's post? It's all personal opinions. Get over yourself.

    - No one is saying BrMs are the best. The fact you say that monks have the same things as everyone else lends credence to the fact they can do it as well.

    - All 10mans bait and leave the axes.

    - 1 swing won't kill you with 10 stacks because that is when you will have your cooldowns up.
    Last edited by Khorm; 2014-04-09 at 12:08 PM.

  9. #29
    I quoted you and put a response underneath then started a new paragraph with my own thoughts.
    Your response was parroting something that I said in the post that you quoted, and then there was no obvious divide. *shrug* people usually put something like @op if they're going to go from responding to something they quoted, then back to the original topic. Whatever, misunderstanding.

    - No one is saying BrMs are the best.
    The poster I've been responding to seems to disagree, or at least think they're god tier for the fight, which they're not. At the very best they're just even with DKs and druids.

    The fact you say that monks have the same things as everyone else lends credence to the fact they can do it as well.
    Which I've said in each post. Hell, there's logs (which I've said existed) that prove monk solo tanks are possible. Paladins, warriors and DKs are all way more popular due to just being an easier and safer tank with which to solo tank the fight on. Yeah monks are amazing for solo tanking thok since the only dangerous part is p1 and it's all physical, but the magic damage on garrosh is unpleasent. Granted if you have any form of paladin in the raid that can take purity it's a moot point and it'd be pretty much a joke.

    All 10mans bait and leave the axes.
    We don't, we move for each axe (except the first 1 in p1, and the first one in p2 is "sorta" baited). At least we have ever since we stopped getting two desecrates in p1.

    1 swing won't kill you with 10 stacks because that is when you will have your cooldowns up.
    If you're sitting low on mastery, it very well can. And since you only will want so much haste anyway, there's no reason to completely bottom out on mastery. I mean, crit is nice and all, but when you're solo tanking something you really should prioritize survabilty to some extent and crits survability benefits (which are very limited in the first place) are very diminished after soft cap.

    1: The "send bait out"-tactic is very much used in 10 man, and personally, I've seen far more 10 mans make use of it than 25 man. Heck, our 10 man alt raid used a bait tactic because 2 of the 3 people moving can be healers (AKA zero dps loss in a non-healing intensive phase), while our 25 man tactic used "entire group movement".
    *shrug* I think we only bait 1 weapon the entire fight (2nd one in p1 which we don't get anymore). If you're two healing, yeah I can see it being a nice strat since you can send the healers for the bait group. Maybe I was under the wrong impression that was a more prevalent thing in 25m, both of the 25s I've been in did the send out an bait strat.

    2: You forgot to include DKs in the Better/More personal cds (and the fact that DS healing combats the magic dmg ticks ).
    For personals yeah. Does a dk tank actually take AMZ on garrosh? Don't think purg would really be too useful really. Proc it and you probably just die to the next magic tick if you get healed out of it. DKs AM is actually really well done for garrosh when you think of it. Blood shield takes care of all the physical damage you're taking, and DS heals won't be wasted since the magic damage just bypasses your blood shield. Throw AMS in there for some sick rune regen and DK is pretty solid.
    Last edited by britishbubba; 2014-04-09 at 06:23 PM.

  10. #30
    /sigh look what my post has become. Not going to quote any post but generally I must say I agree with britishbubba about monk. I play all but warrior tanks and I know what's the pros and cons of each tank on each fight, except for heroic garrosh which we are not there yet and that's what I'm asking about. I don't feel britishbubba is defensive at all and on the contrary it's other monk tank(s) here are being defensive because he pointed out monk tanks have weakness. Simply put there is a difference between "it can be done" and "it is easy". To me it sounds different when I heard "Manage your death strike properly and it's easy" and "Rotate your diffuse magic/avert harm/zen meditation/expel harm/guard/etc properly and move to grab your GotO orbs and it's easy". Monk is my main and I play it very well and I love it. But I wouldn't hesitate to admit it is significantly harder to play than other tanks on some specific fights.

    I was talking to our healers earlier after one raid. They said I took like no damage from the spikes from siegecrafter. I said yea but that's because I was planning everything properly to counter that, my resource, my cd, my stagger, etc, while as dk I pretty much just take the damage straight to my face and heal myself back up and need much less management, AMS at most. I said monks are like magicians. You see they do a lot of crazy stuff. But if you are behind the stage, you will probably see they do a lot of shit to keep the cool appearance.

    That's my opinion

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardiff View Post
    So are the combos either,

    1) DK tank + monk dps (you)
    2) DK Dps + prot tank (you)

    Losing both a devo and a strong arcing light (prot only) is... a bit much but it really depends on your raid cooldowns that you have already. I'll be honest, I have never raided with a windwalker monk and just off the top of my head, I don't think they really bring much for garrosh. They probably can kill the transition easier I suppose over a DK DPS.

    Do death knight tanks get to speck AMZ here or do you go purg? That is another consideration.
    That's pretty much the 1 tank combos we can get so yea. Guess we'll try everything out when we get there. My pally is the only pally we can bring, I did bring him to solo tank Thok from day 1 for that reason and I still haven't done Thok on heroic once on my monk lol. We might ended up doing that.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by jasonleekungfu View Post
    That's my opinion
    I like the analogy. Fits pretty well I'd say.

  12. #32
    Which dps check are you struggling to meet? Pushing to Phase 3 before 3rd EWC? Pushing to Phase 4 before 2nd EWC?

    We one-tanked it one week with a DK (after ~10 2 tank/2heal kills) and made it to 10% before the 2nd Intermission, but we didn't have all our 3 min CDs up for the burn and Phase 3 was pretty sketchy. We also got some people gibbed during Phase 1 also because the adds we're more likely to hit melee. Really you should probably just make sure those adds are dead before the Warcry. Phase 4 was really easy
    though... We basically concluded that 2 tanking was more reliable and haven't done it again since then. But we have good dps, so it was never *required*
    Minimerlinx - Kel'Thuzad (US)

    <Royal Militia> - 14/14H, US22 10m, is now recruiting all classes for WoD! Apply here!


  13. #33
    killing the second set of adds before the warcry is asking for a lot. the warcry comes up 6-7 seconds after they reach the middle. it's probably doable, but that requires a lot of good aoe classes. we moved to 1 tank after one of the 2 tanks quit and it seemed kind of useless as our 2nd tank in the fight only taunted for a second for vengeance while the warrior kept garrosh 100% of the time, going up to 12-13 stacks. its dangerous at times and requires healer CDs, but the dps gain is just absurd. we're getting him to 10% before 2nd intermission and then to 0% before the first empowered whirl, so we have to deal with one empowered whirl in the whole fight and can blow all cooldowns for that.

    we also had a problem with a lot more damage from adds without a second tank. I'd guess the fixate is random but they prefer people building threat on them or something. the first set of adds is no problem anyway, as those should easily be aoe'ed down before warsong comes up. second set will get warsong buffed and we had to use a cycle of CDs to stop people from dieing.
    first of all you have to make sure that there's actualyl more then 3-4 standing on the tank. otherwise it's way too likely that multiple warbringers fixate the same guy, which is bad news.
    once warsong goes off, we use a 5s aoe stun. when that wears off, we knock them back, when they run in, another stun and then an elemental shaman pops AG. then we knock them back into the wheel (if we don't have him into phase 2 before that happens, but the adds are pretty low at that point anyway).

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Mini View Post
    Which dps check are you struggling to meet? Pushing to Phase 3 before 3rd EWC? Pushing to Phase 4 before 2nd EWC?

    We one-tanked it one week with a DK (after ~10 2 tank/2heal kills) and made it to 10% before the 2nd Intermission, but we didn't have all our 3 min CDs up for the burn and Phase 3 was pretty sketchy. We also got some people gibbed during Phase 1 also because the adds we're more likely to hit melee. Really you should probably just make sure those adds are dead before the Warcry. Phase 4 was really easy
    though... We basically concluded that 2 tanking was more reliable and haven't done it again since then. But we have good dps, so it was never *required*
    It'd not have been sketchy if you just stopped dps at 12% and entered terrace to AFK for a minute instead of push him into P3. You get one empowered whirl in P2, sure, but you also get every single CD up for P3 (including almost all healing cds) and healers with 100% mana to spam instead of healers that's just been bled dry by 3 whirls and an intermission+spamming a tank <.<.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    It'd not have been sketchy if you just stopped dps at 12% and entered terrace to AFK for a minute instead of push him into P3. You get one empowered whirl in P2, sure, but you also get every single CD up for P3 (including almost all healing cds) and healers with 100% mana to spam instead of healers that's just been bled dry by 3 whirls and an intermission+spamming a tank <.<.
    In our normal (2 tank) strategy we skip Intermission 2 and take 2 EWC in Phase 2 and one in Phase 3.

    If you don't push sub-10% before Intermission 2, then 1 tanking trades a significant risk of tank death and melee deaths in Phase 1 for one extra EWC (which can be a big deal depending on your group comp, but it's not too bad for us). It's a good idea if you're struggling to meet a dps check, but not necessarily a no brainer for everyone.
    Last edited by Mini; 2014-04-10 at 03:48 AM.
    Minimerlinx - Kel'Thuzad (US)

    <Royal Militia> - 14/14H, US22 10m, is now recruiting all classes for WoD! Apply here!


  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Mini View Post
    In our normal (2 tank) strategy we skip Intermission 2 and take 2 EWC in Phase 2 and one in Phase 3.

    If you don't push sub-10% before Intermission 2, then 1 tanking trades a significant risk of tank death and melee deaths in Phase 1 for one extra EWC (which can be a big deal depending on your group comp, but it's not too bad for us). It's a good idea if you're struggling to meet a dps check, but not necessarily a no brainer for everyone.
    1 tank ends up tanking Garrosh and the adds anyway but having a 2nd tank there doesn't do anything that affects the fixate.

  17. #37
    We have only 1 tanked it with a DK and it worked fine, that being said I no reason why a warrior or pally couldn't do it just fine. As far as monks, they would not be my first choice because of the magic damage, but if you raid has a lot of cd's to throw at him it should be just fine. Druids I have no idea....whats a bear...j/k I miss our bear. Just plan your CD on the tank in between whirls or have a vocal tank capable of calling for specific cd's and it should work just fine.

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