Political Indoctrination

[Northy]

I have a bit of an issue. My brother is a hyper conservative. I, though not particularly political, lean more liberal. My brother's wife was also rather middle-of-the-road when it came to politics. Lately however, I have found out that my brother is making his wife read a lot of super conservative books like Ayn Rand. I told her that's not a problem so long as she is able to understand both sides of the argument. She asked me to recommend some more liberal-leaning reading for her and I couldn't come up with anything. I now defer to you all in hopes of countering my brother's Ayn Rand by recommending some books. She's very impressionable so this is something I take very seriously. If, after reading all sides, she becomes a devout conservative like my brother then so be it, but I'd at least like her to see the entire spectrum beforehand.

Thanks in advance for all your help.

[obdigore]

Anything that talks about the idiocy of objectivism.

Something like The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. (It's about wage slavery which is a major block of objectivism)

You could also hand her the bible and tell her to read the teachings of Jesus, especially if she, or her Husband, are Christian/religious. I can't think of a religion beyond Satanism that would embrace objectivism.

[Nostop it]

I have a bit of an issue. My brother is a hyper conservative. I, though not particularly political, lean more liberal. My brother's wife was also rather middle-of-the-road when it came to politics. Lately however, I have found out that my brother is making his wife read a lot of super conservative books like Ayn Rand. I told her that's not a problem so long as she is able to understand both sides of the argument. She asked me to recommend some more liberal-leaning reading for her and I couldn't come up with anything. I now defer to you all in hopes of countering my brother's Ayn Rand by recommending some books. She's very impressionable so this is something I take very seriously. If, after reading all sides, she becomes a devout conservative like my brother then so be it, but I'd at least like her to see the entire spectrum beforehand.

Thanks in advance for all your help.

If your serious about her reading books to get all sides of the story she should read the bible. You don't have to be religious but it's just a good book. You know the bible talks more about money than any other subject?

[Theodon]

If your serious about her reading books to get all sides of the story she should read the bible. You don't have to be religious but it's just a good book. You know the bible talks more about money than any other subject?

I don't think having a woman read the bible is a good idea. Women in the bible are not exactly treated well.

[dehotz]

I have a bit of an issue. My brother is a hyper conservative. I, though not particularly political, lean more liberal. My brother's wife was also rather middle-of-the-road when it came to politics. Lately however, I have found out that my brother is making his wife read a lot of super conservative books like Ayn Rand. I told her that's not a problem so long as she is able to understand both sides of the argument. She asked me to recommend some more liberal-leaning reading for her and I couldn't come up with anything. I now defer to you all in hopes of countering my brother's Ayn Rand by recommending some books. She's very impressionable so this is something I take very seriously. If, after reading all sides, she becomes a devout conservative like my brother then so be it, but I'd at least like her to see the entire spectrum beforehand.

Thanks in advance for all your help.

Just have her read about Ayn Rand's actual history and that will cancel basically all of Ayn Rand's arguments out fairly nicely. In case you want a quick synopsis Rand was terrible with money, a staunch atheist(never gets mentioned by people like Paul Ryan), believed in the superman theory, oh and she took gov't assistance at the end of her life making her a giant hypocrite. She essentially argues for ethical egoism which is an incredibly easy ethical theory to argue against.

[THE Bigzoman]

I don't think theres anything wrong with developing a political ideology unless that ideology influences your judgement on everything.

That said, I have always believed that ideology and spirituality should be a journey taken by the individual alone and not influenced by others in the slightest.

So I would say your hyper conservative brother is doing his wife a dis-service.

[obdigore]

That's just tu quoque. If Rand actually argued for a particular system (as opposed to just laying out a system without supporting it), it doesn't matter if Rand followed it or not. You have to attack the argument and not the hypocrisy.

It is a point to the detraction of Objectivism that their Messiah can't actually follow her own teachings. Of course, she did a ton of really horrible stuff, but there are quite a few deconstructions of objectivism that one could read, instead of something like an attack article/book on Alisa Rosenbaum.

[Garnier Fructis]

Nothing. Ayn Rand books are so bad that they refute themselves. Actually, have her read Anthem if your brother hasn't already told her to.

I didn't think it was possible for any other to fuck up an ending so badly until I read that book. My respect for Ayn Rand took a nosedive and has never recovered from it.

[dehotz]

That's just tu quoque. If Rand actually argued for a particular system (as opposed to just laying out a system without supporting it), it doesn't matter if Rand followed it or not. You have to attack the argument and not the hypocrisy.

As I mentioned there are plenty of arguments against ethical egoism. I still think it's worth pointing out the hypocrisy of an individual who spent her entire life railing against people taking government assistance and then she goes ahead and does it, if you don't fair enough, we can agree to disagree on that.

[Gheld]

I read Atlas Shrugged. It seemed to be more about corporate welfare and corporate cronyism than about individual welfare. In fact the needies in the book were made needies because of the economic damage done by the corporate welfare. Not the other way around.

[Speaknoevil]

I hate to say this, but if she married a hyper conservative it's probably too late for her.

[Garnier Fructis]

I hate to say this, but if she married a hyper conservative it's probably too late for her.

I've seen people of all ages de-convert, so there's still hope.

[Gheld]

I hate to say this, but if she married a hyper conservative it's probably too late for her.

My dads a hyper conservative. My mom's a Marxist. Opposites attract.

[Garnier Fructis]

My dads a hyper conservative. My mom's a Marxist. Opposites attract.

Does that mean you're far middle?

[Gheld]

Does that mean you're far middle?

Yeah. I'm a pragmatist extremist. Always looking for pragmatic solutions to everything.

[THE Bigzoman]

I've seen people of all ages de-convert, so there's still hope.

In terms of conversion it's pretty bad.

My older sister is engaged to a conservative NRA member. Manages a small used car store. Overall a good guy though.

Her previous boyfriends were pretty shitty people. Strange thing is, they were extreme liberals.

- - - Updated - - -

My dads a hyper conservative. My mom's a Marxist. Opposites attract.

Cannot date someone too far from the political spectrum. Tried it. Doesn't work.

[Randec]

Anything by Noam Chomsky. A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. George Orwell, specifically 1984.

[Gheld]

Cannot date someone too far from the political spectrum. Tried it. Doesn't work.

From my observations over the years you need 2 things for a lasting marriage:

Common goals for which the marriage is a vehicle.

And passion (of any flavour).

[Garnier Fructis]

My older sister is engaged to a conservative NRA member. Manages a small used car store. Overall a good guy though.

When people aren't arguing over politics on forums, they're generally surprisingly cool people.

[Speaknoevil]

When people aren't arguing over politics on forums, they're generally surprisingly cool people.

Well, I couldn't be around someone like that, knowing their positions and feelings.