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  1. #1

    [BALANCE] WTB more thoughtful and fun Eclipse gameplay (suggestions within)

    While Celestalon and the WoW dev team may be happy with the eclipse mechanic, in my view the whole mechanic does not provide much thoughtful gameplay. Currently, moonkin dps is like a nice regular sine wave, it oscillates up and down at very regular intervals with higher peaks corresponding to specific fight amp mechanics and/or cooldowns. While this "works" from a mechanical standpoint, it does not provide much room to make the types of interesting decisions (such as damage now vs. damage later) that make WoW such a great and fun game.

    The problem as I see it is that the eclipse mechanic has no leeway (I could say "very little leeway" but the point is the same) in being able to make the decision of whether to trade off single-target damage now for increased single-target damage at a later time (in the near future).

    There are countless ways to approach this problem mechanically but I have focused two of my suggestions on already existing mechanics that could likely be easily implemented with limited changes to the current eclipse mechanism as well as keeping the "feel" of moonkin gameplay almost identical to where it is today.

    Solution 1: Change Euphoria
    (New) Euphoria
    Requires Druid (Balance)
    Requires level 38
    While not in an Eclipse state, your Wrath, Starfire, and Starsurge spells generate double the normal amount of Solar or Lunar energy. In addition, casting a non-energy generating spell while not in an Eclipse state generates [100%] of the normal amount of Solar or Lunar Energy in addition to storing [50%] of the normal amount of Solar or Lunar Energy (whichever is more beneficial) for use in the next Eclipse state.


    Explanation: What this will do is to allow balance druids to "store" eclipse energy by lengthening the amount of time they spend outside of Eclipse. For example, let's say that you have a moderate burst phase incoming in the near future and you are leaving Lunar Eclipse on your way to Solar. Instead of casting Starfire which would have allowed you to get to Solar eclipse in 3 casts, you could cast Wrath which would still move you towards Solar but at a reduced rate - you would need a total of 7 Wrath casts to get to Solar that way. In exchange you will have "stored" ~55 more Solar Energy that will allow you to cast 3 more eclipsed Wraths.

    The tradeoff here is adding 6 seconds of uneclipsed time to the eclipse cycle and getting 3 more eclipsed Wraths vs. the "standard" rotation.

    Solution 2: Change Euphoria
    (New) Euphoria
    Requires Druid (Balance)
    Requires level 38
    While not in an Eclipse state, your Wrath, Starfire, and Starsurge spells generate double the normal amount of Solar or Lunar energy. In addition, casting a non-energy generating spell while not in an Eclipse state generates [100%] of the normal amount of Solar or Lunar Energy in addition to extending the next Nature's Grace buff by [1 second].


    Explanation: In this example you will have "extended" the next Nature's Grace by 7 seconds by stretching the time you spent out of eclipse by 6 seconds.


    Obviously the numbers need to be tweaked quite a bit to get to the desired result but the idea is that overall it should still be more dps on a patchwerk style single-target fight to do the rotation as it currently exists. The important thing is to offer the option to make a thoughtful tradeoff about whether it is better to do less damage now vs. more damage in the future. One of the other benefits to this type of tweak is that it allows moonkin to "stretch" out the rotation to better fit the timing of a wider variety of fight mechanics. As it currently stands, moonkin need to hope that high dps phases miraculously align themselves with their eclipse cycles.

    -Pippilongear

  2. #2
    Blademaster
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    Boomkin would be op as fuck if they'd change the eclipse energy gain, they'd have to nerf the damage of our spells.

    It should remain untouched imo.

  3. #3
    Happy/comfortable with the way it works atm. Adding aoe into the eclipse mechanic was good to stop the rotation from stalling out, but I'd prefer the rotation changes as little as possible each expansion while improving quality of life stuff. If they took the rng out of soul of the forest and made it a CD, that's a much better idea than changing the eclipse resource for the 3rd or 4th time now? No one uses sotf atm it needs a drastic change anyway. give it like 45sec-1min CD.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal voxTree's Avatar
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    I like Eclipse as-is.

    The only serious issue I have with it right now is how our AOE interacts with Nature's Grace. Movement eating up NG time when we're unlucky with SS procs can suck, too.

    I'm happy they're giving us the PVP Astral Communion set bonus via glyphs in WoD, that will be helpful during movement. I'm still not happy with our AOE situation, even with Hurricane giving energy. I think that we'd be better off if Hurricane just extended NG .5/1 seconds per tick, rather than pushing us through Eclipse.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Pippilongear View Post
    While Celestalon and the WoW dev team may be happy with the eclipse mechanic, in my view the whole mechanic does not provide much thoughtful gameplay. Currently, moonkin dps is like a nice regular sine wave, it oscillates up and down at very regular intervals with higher peaks corresponding to specific fight amp mechanics and/or cooldowns. While this "works" from a mechanical standpoint, it does not provide much room to make the types of interesting decisions (such as damage now vs. damage later) that make WoW such a great and fun game.
    You apparently have no idea what you are talking about...

    They are plenty of possibilities where you can "save up" dmg in moonkin rotation, be it saving up a starfall, or delaying an eclipse for a view seconds. Just because you are unable to see these possibilities, does not mean they do not exist. On top of that, we also have cds that can be utilized to burst at specific points. Had you progressed through SoO and killed Garrosh HC as a moonkin, you would know about saving up starfall and the next lunar eclipse before going up into the first transition phase, allowing you to burst upto 7-9 mil dmg on the adds, most likely putting you on top or near top dmg on the adds, in 10 man.

    I do admit that Moonkin AoE and its interaction with eclipse and NG uptime is wonky, but that should be fixed around the eclipse gameplay.

    While i preferred Cata moonkin, IMO the current moonkin eclipse rotation is still pretty awesome.

    You either play a class because you like the gameplay it provides, due to flavor or both. You obviously do not like the basic gameplay moonkins provide, so you should probably take a step back and have a look at whether moonkin flavor is enough for you or you should play a wholly different spec.
    Last edited by runey; 2014-04-10 at 08:58 AM.

  6. #6
    Eclipse is fine, I don't get why people want to complain about it or try to make it better. Eclipse is the staple mechanic of a Moonkin so if you don't like it then don't play the class.

    The only time I could see Eclipse being reworked is if the Druid class as a whole was to undergo a massive rework like Warlock got for MoP, but I don't see that happening any time within the next few years.

  7. #7
    You're complaining about one of the most original and fun designs regarding a dps in the game. If you dont like it my suggestion is you change class or spec.

  8. #8
    Jesus all this hate.

    @OP those are some nice ideas, adding some subtlety without taking away the uniqueness of eclipse. I'm not sure they're needed but I'm not sure the flamecannon people started up was needed either.
    loljk

  9. #9
    The Patient Grum88's Avatar
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    Eclipse is fine as is imo..although would mind mastery scaling abit better...just because im greedy!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by runey View Post
    You apparently have no idea what you are talking about........allowing you to burst upto 7-9 mil dmg on the adds
    Quote Originally Posted by pippilongear
    to trade off single-target damage now for increased single-target damage at a later time
    Quote Originally Posted by pippilongear
    single-target damage
    Quote Originally Posted by pippilongear
    single
    Quote Originally Posted by pippilongear
    target
    You apparently have very little reading comprehension


    Currently there is zero tradeoff between single-target damage now and damage later for moonkin. The current mechanic trades off less damage now for the same damage later

    1) Saving an out-of-eclipse Starfall is a possibility but is uncontrollable - there is no guarantee that the stars will hit the target you need to swap to and burst down.
    2) I've often delayed my eclipse by one or two casts, especially when waiting to burst aoe down adds in Solar eclipse but there is currently no mechanic to delay single-target for 6 or more seconds without sacrificing a ridiculous amount of dps.

    The important point to remember is that this is an option - if you do not want to use it, fine, but it would be an additional tool in our toolkit. Using it should lead to lower total damage done overall but the option exists so that if you need to line up your eclipses with important dps phases, there is some limited ability to do that.

    BTW, i love that you pulled out both the progression card
    Quote Originally Posted by runey
    Had you progressed through SoO and killed Garrosh HC as a moonkin
    and the reroll card
    Quote Originally Posted by runey
    or you should play a wholly different spec
    Both of which definitely lend weight to your reasoning. /sarcasm

  11. #11
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    So lemme get this straight. you want to stall single target damage (eclipses) but you dont want to lose any dps by doing that (your suggestions)

    by definition thats called op.


    Heres a free tip for ya. if you want to stall your "burst" dps, save cooldowns. if ya dont need to save them, then just use the nuke spell that doesnt generate eclipse energy. There there, look at it. a "fun" and "thoughtful" eclipse gameplay.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    So lemme get this straight. you want to stall single target damage (eclipses) but you dont want to lose any dps by doing that (your suggestions)

    by definition thats called op.
    By definition? What a moronic thing to say.

    Arms warriors store overpower proc stacks, arcane mages store arcane missile procs, destro locks store embers for chaos bolts.

    The point he's making is Eclipse does not allow for elegant nor intuitive methods of controlling when we brust. Stalling by casting the 'wrong' spell to avoid hitting eclipse too soon is frankly gross.
    loljk

  13. #13
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kekkeri View Post
    By definition? What a moronic thing to say.

    Arms warriors store overpower proc stacks, arcane mages store arcane missile procs, destro locks store embers for chaos bolts.
    Im not sure how arms warriors and arcane mages rotations work, but i'd imagine its the best dps to stack them to max. So if they'd have to sit with the stacks, it'd be a dps loss - like stalling eclipses. Destro locks have it better but then again, i'd say that mechanic is op for burst damage (and it is)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kekkeri View Post
    The point he's making is Eclipse does not allow for elegant nor intuitive methods of controlling when we brust. Stalling by casting the 'wrong' spell to avoid hitting eclipse too soon is frankly gross.
    Eclipse allows you to control your burst, the fact that you think the current way is "gross" is your own problem.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    So lemme get this straight. you want to stall single target damage (eclipses) but you dont want to lose any dps by doing that (your suggestions)
    No, my suggestion will lower single target damage now for increased single target damage later. Overall it will be a dps loss to do so but what you sacrifice in total damage you make up for in flexibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee
    Heres a free tip for ya. if you want to stall your "burst" dps, save cooldowns.
    Really? Why didn't I think of that...genius! /sarcasm

    Every spec in the game has cooldowns and many specs (shadow priests, warriors, mages, locks, etc...) *also* have ways to store their resource for use in the future when high dps is needed. Currently moonkin have no viable way to store our eclipse resource. Let me ask you, Lappee - during Paragon progression have you ever "stalled" your eclipse rotation by casting a non-energy generating nuke for 7 or 8 seconds in MoP? I would highly doubt it, it would be dps suicide with almost zero future gain. At that point you would just try to power through to the next eclipse and hope that you get there in time - not exactly thoughtful gameplay.

  15. #15
    Just because some specs can store their resources doesn't mean that every single spec needs that. Also stalling your eclipse is a thing to do at least on Garrosh where you want to enter Lunar eclipse just second away from first intermission.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kekkeri View Post
    Jesus all this hate.

    @OP those are some nice ideas, adding some subtlety without taking away the uniqueness of eclipse. I'm not sure they're needed but I'm not sure the flamecannon people started up was needed either.
    Probably because he has invented some fictional problem and is confusing "thoughtful" with "easy."

  17. #17
    The only issues I have with Eclipse at the moment are being addressed in WoD through Perks (Sustained-ish AoE, nor that it has any relevance on any encounter nowadays).

  18. #18
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pippilongear View Post
    No, my suggestion will lower single target damage now for increased single target damage later. Overall it will be a dps loss to do so but what you sacrifice in total damage you make up for in flexibility.
    We can do that right now if we want to. What your suggestion does is to negate the dps loss from stalling eclipses

    Quote Originally Posted by Pippilongear View Post
    Every spec in the game has cooldowns and many specs (shadow priests, warriors, mages, locks, etc...) *also* have ways to store their resource for use in the future when high dps is needed. Currently moonkin have no viable way to store our eclipse resource. Let me ask you, Lappee - during Paragon progression have you ever "stalled" your eclipse rotation by casting a non-energy generating nuke for 7 or 8 seconds in MoP? I would highly doubt it, it would be dps suicide with almost zero future gain. At that point you would just try to power through to the next eclipse and hope that you get there in time.
    for 7-8 seconds? Yes. Generally theres no point because i'd get to next eclipse just as fast, unless you really need the burst from lunar eclipse. But then again EVERY class in game needs to stall something in order to get the max dps out. Moonkin is not an exception in this case and should not be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pippilongear View Post
    not exactly thoughtful gameplay
    Thats exactly what it is. its a choice between bad dps now for burst dps when its actually needed.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    We can do that right now if we want to. What your suggestion does is to negate the dps loss from stalling eclipses



    for 7-8 seconds? Yes. Generally theres no point because i'd get to next eclipse just as fast, unless you really need the burst from lunar eclipse. But then again EVERY class in game needs to stall something in order to get the max dps out. Moonkin is not an exception in this case and should not be.


    Thats exactly what it is. its a choice between bad dps now for burst dps when its actually needed.
    While I don't like the ideas proposed in the OP, I think if they gave Soul of the Forest a one minute cooldown this would give much more flexible on demand single target or aoe burst.

    I'm not sure if I misread lappee's post or if he hasn't played a destro warlock yet. The core mechanic of the class is to sit on 3 embers and chaos bolt at 4. You dump the other 3 with trinket procs and/or demon soul which has 2 charges and a 2 minute CD. This can be used for aoe or single target. You can also save conflag stacks. It's not a dps loss for destro to pool resources at all and will be the same for shadow when they can bank up to 5 orbs in WoD. Resource mechanics like these are broken. It requires 0 brainpower to play.

    I realize this is 2 specs and off the top of my head many other specs say warrior with colossal smash don't have this flexibility. Warriors would have to save CS and reck if something wasn't dying fast enough. Moonkins have to spam the wrong nuke, and save starfall (can't save your engi gloves anymore - thanks Blizz...) then you have treant charges or incarn, and/or celestial alignment. It would be awesome if we could use soul of the forest as a CD and get rid of the rng behind it to help be in the right eclipse at the right time without losing too much nature's grace.

  20. #20
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by officerlahey View Post
    I'm not sure if I misread lappee's post or if he hasn't played a destro warlock yet. The core mechanic of the class is to sit on 3 embers and chaos bolt at 4. You dump the other 3 with trinket procs and/or demon soul which has 2 charges and a 2 minute CD. This can be used for aoe or single target. You can also save conflag stacks. It's not a dps loss for destro to pool resources at all and will be the same for shadow when they can bank up to 5 orbs in WoD. Resource mechanics like these are broken. It requires 0 brainpower to play.
    the difference is that if you sit on 4 embers, you'll potentially lose some of them. Sure normally you wouldnt, just like no class would. but if ya need the max burst, then you need to stall = dps loss. Destro locks just lose less dps from it (but more from having no procs with them)

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